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  1. #1
    Dog is my co-pilot 2manybikes's Avatar
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    Do they know? Do they care?

    Have you asked any non cycling drivers if they know about the rules of the road pertaining to bikes?
    They typically don't know them, they think you don't know what you are talking about also.

    Are they motivated to learn or remember them? They don't care.

    Are they anti bike ?
    Not most of them, they don't think about bikes at all, they have no agenda, they don't even think
    about it.

    Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
    It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

    Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2manybikes
    Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
    It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

    Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.
    Not cutting a cyclist off is common sense courtesy, road rules - motorists who do it either didn't see or become aware of the cyclist or didn't care - its not ignorance of law that is the problem.

    Getting harrassed for using a full lane may be the result of ignorance of law.

    Al

  3. #3
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2manybikes
    Have you asked any non cycling drivers if they know about the rules of the road pertaining to bikes?
    They typically don't know them, they think you don't know what you are talking about also.

    Are they motivated to learn or remember them? They don't care.

    Are they anti bike ?
    Not most of them, they don't think about bikes at all, they have no agenda, they don't even think
    about it.

    Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
    It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

    Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.
    Good topic.

    Few drivers care to know the rules about anything, not just cycling on roads, beyond what is required to avoid getting tickets. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to accept it, and learn to live with it. I have. You can too. It's not that big of a deal.

    What drivers do care about is getting where they are going, as quickly and efficiently as possible. The vast majority accepts that they have to slow down for stop signs, often even stop, and that they have to stop and wait at red lights. They're understandably frustrated by slow moving vehicles, including cyclists. Waiting sucks. Feeling delayed sucks. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to understand it, accept that we cause delay from time to time, and learn to live with it.

    When we're in the waiting room of a crowded doctor's office we have to be patient. Does knowing that help? Somewhat. But what really helps is when the receptionist calls our name and tells us that we're next. We still have to wait, but somehow we feel better. Why? I believe it is because we have been acknowledged by someone who is controlling our delay, and they are letting us know that it won't be much longer.

    Most cyclists realize how frustrated motorists can be when they encounter cyclists up ahead who they can't pass immediately. This is probably why there is so much support among cyclists for bike lanes, because they perceive bike lanes to alleviate this problem (when it's actually the space which would be there without the stripe and therefore without the bike lane, which alleviates the problems, but I digress). But what most cyclists don't seem to realize is how much of that frustration in the motorists is due to their being baffled with what to do, and how much that can be alleviated by the cyclist himself - by communicating to them that they know they are there, and that they are in control, and that they will take care of them as soon as possible. What most cyclists don't realize is how much motorists look to us for direction on what to do, and that we have the power to reduce their stress, just like the receptionist can make us feel better at the doctor's office simply by informing us that we're next.

    So... Get a mirror. Pay attention to what is going on around you, including behind you. When you see a motorist approaching from behind, long before he's right behind you, think about what you can do to help him out. Is there room for them to pass you on the left safely and reasonably? If yes, look back over your right shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit right. If there is no room to safely pass you, look back over your left shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit left. Perhaps throw in a slow/stop signal. Believe it or not, they are likely to feel much better if you do one or the other, and will either pass you with plenty of space, or slow down and/or back off per your request, until you do look back over your right shoulder and move a bit right when it does become safe and reasonable for them to pass you, at which point they are likely to be smiling at you, or giving you a friendly wave or toot of the horn as they pass.

    Communicate with the drivers. Traffic is a social activity. It's not a battle or war out there. It's a dance where we're constantly changing partners, partners with whom we cooperate, not battle. How you see it dictates how you behave in it, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you see it as a battle, you will act accordingly, and it will be a battle (for the most part). If you see it as dance, you will act accordingly, and it will be a dance (for the most part).

    The choice is yours.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 02-14-07 at 02:06 PM.

  4. #4
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    I think its human nature to "convince" yourself of certain beliefs, and sometimes the beliefs have very little basis in reality. Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.

    I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road. These people will not listen to rational, logical arguments because they have their minds made up and nothing will change their beliefs.

    So with that in mind, in answer to your very good question, most drivers don't know, will not be convinced otherwise and certainly don't care.
    Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

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  5. #5
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho
    I think its human nature to "convince" yourself of certain beliefs, and sometimes the beliefs have very little basis in reality. Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.

    I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road. These people will not listen to rational, logical arguments because they have their minds made up and nothing will change their beliefs.

    So with that in mind, in answer to your very good question, most drivers don't know, will not be convinced otherwise and certainly don't care.
    +1
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  6. #6
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho
    I think its human nature to "convince" yourself of certain beliefs, and sometimes the beliefs have very little basis in reality. Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.

    I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road. These people will not listen to rational, logical arguments because they have their minds made up and nothing will change their beliefs.

    So with that in mind, in answer to your very good question, most drivers don't know, will not be convinced otherwise and certainly don't care.
    Agreed. But, the good news is that it hardly matters since, in the vast majority of cases, the same drivers will treat you respectfully and fairly if you act predictably and responsibily and treat them respectfully and fairly, including communicating with them effectively (which was the point of my previous post in this thread).

  7. #7
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    It's a dance where we're constantly changing partners
    Hussy.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  8. #8
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Good topic.

    Few drivers care to know the rules about anything, not just cycling on roads, beyond what is required to avoid getting tickets. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to accept it, and learn to live with it. I have. You can too. It's not that big of a deal.

    What drivers do care about is getting where they are going, as quickly and efficiently as possible. The vast majority accepts that they have to slow down for stop signs, often even stop, and that they have to stop and wait at red lights. They're understandably frustrated by slow moving vehicles, including cyclists. Waiting sucks. Feeling delayed sucks. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to understand it, accept that we cause delay from time to time, and learn to live with it.

    When we're in the waiting room of a crowded doctor's office we have to be patient. Does knowing that help? Somewhat. But what really helps is when the receptionist calls our name and tells us that we're next. We still have to wait, but somehow we feel better. Why? I believe it is because we have been acknowledged by someone who is controlling our delay, and they are letting us know that it won't be much longer.

    Most cyclists realize how frustrated motorists can be when they encounter cyclists up ahead who they can't pass immediately. This is probably why there is so much support among cyclists for bike lanes, because they perceive bike lanes to alleviate this problem (when it's actually the space which would be there without the stripe and therefore without the bike lane, which alleviates the problems, but I digress). But what most cyclists don't seem to realize is how much of that frustration in the motorists is due to their being baffled with what to do, and how much that can be alleviated by the cyclist himself - by communicating to them that they know they are there, and that they are in control, and that they will take care of them as soon as possible. What most cyclists don't realize is how much motorists look to us for direction on what to do, and that we have the power to reduce their stress, just like the receptionist can make us feel better at the doctor's office simply by informing us that we're next.

    So... Get a mirror. Pay attention to what is going on around you, including behind you. When you see a motorist approaching from behind, long before he's right behind you, think about what you can do to help him out. Is there room for them to pass you on the left safely and reasonably? If yes, look back over your right shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit right. If there is no room to safely pass you, look back over your left shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit left. Perhaps throw in a slow/stop signal. Believe it or not, they are likely to feel much better if you do one or the other, and will either pass you with plenty of space, or slow down and/or back off per your request, until you do look back over your right shoulder and move a bit right when it does become safe and reasonable for them to pass you, at which point they are likely to be smiling at you, or giving you a friendly wave or toot of the horn as they pass.

    Communicate with the drivers. Traffic is a social activity. It's not a battle or war out there. It's a dance where we're constantly changing partners, partners with whom we cooperate, not battle. How you see it dictates how you behave in it, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you see it as a battle, you will act accordingly, and it will be a battle (for the most part). If you see it as dance, you will act accordingly, and it will be a dance (for the most part).

    The choice is yours.
    Very well said. Will every motorist want to dance? No, but a large percentage will.

  9. #9
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galen_52657
    Very well said. Will every motorist want to dance? No, but a large percentage will.
    I can't disagree with "large percentage", but would you also agree if it were characterized more specifically as "the vast majority with very rare exceptions"?

  10. #10
    Senior Member CTAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho
    Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.
    Was it not? All right, nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho
    I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road.
    +1.

    Bike facilities are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear messsage that bicycles are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to ride a bicycle.

  11. #11
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTAC
    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho
    I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road.
    +1.

    Bike facilities are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear messsage that bicycles are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to ride a bicycle.
    To the contrary, bike facilities are helping reinforce that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists should not be riding in space used by vehicular traffic.

    Bicyclists riding on roadways in vehicular traffic lanes according to the vehicular rules of the road are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to not only ride a bicycle, but use one for transportation on the roads.

  12. #12
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
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    2nd reply and we have powerswerve advocacy!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  13. #13
    Senior Member CTAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    To the contrary, bike facilities are helping reinforce that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists should not be riding in space used by vehicular traffic.
    Any supporting evidence to that bs?
    I know people who started riding just because BLs are available here. If there were no BL they would not start riding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Bicyclists riding on roadways in vehicular traffic lanes according to the vehicular rules of the road are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists are lawfully present on the road.
    I agree with that, but how do you put bicyclists on the roads? Unless there are bicycle facilities people do not perceive bicycles as an option for transportation. You either do not understand that, or you do not want people using bicycles, or you're only riding bike on the AS forum.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    To the contrary, bike facilities are helping reinforce that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists should not be riding in space used by vehicular traffic.

    Bicyclists riding on roadways in vehicular traffic lanes according to the vehicular rules of the road are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to not only ride a bicycle, but use one for transportation on the roads.
    I'm going to have to call for your sources on this one. Show me something!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  15. #15
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTAC
    I agree with that, but how do you put bicyclists on the roads? Unless there are bicycle facilities people do not perceive bicycles as an option for transportation. You either do not understand that, or you do not want people using bicycles, or you're only riding bike on the AS forum.
    He's of the Forester school that only those highly-skilled, high-mileage, serious cyclists who are comfortable riding in traffic, are worth advocating for. But if you take a LAB approved course, you automagically become a worthy serious cyclist and are entitled to the full benefits of elite club membership and benefits.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  16. #16
    Senior Member CTAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    He's of the Forester school that only those highly-skilled, high-mileage, serious cyclists who are comfortable riding in traffic, are worth advocating for. But if you take a LAB approved course, you automagically become a worthy serious cyclist and are entitled to the full benefits of elite club membership and benefits.
    Has HH taken the course himself?

  17. #17
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    I'm going to have to call for your sources on this one. Show me something!
    All I did was substitute a few words in CTAC's assertion. Why not call him to task for his original assertion? Why pick on me?
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 02-14-07 at 05:36 PM.

  18. #18
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTAC
    Has HH taken the course himself?
    I've taken Road 1, Road 2 and the LCI Seminar. Yes, I passed.

    However, please do not confuse some of my more controversial views with subject material from these courses.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    All I did was substitute a few words in San Rensho's assertion. Why not call him to task for his original assertion? Why pick on me?
    I happen agree with his assertion, so it is your job to challenge him on grounds of substance, not mine. But you cannot just challenge an assertion with another assertion.

    Mr Vibrating
    Now, let's get one thing quite clear. I most definitely told you!
    Man
    You did not.
    Mr Vibrating
    Yes I did.
    Man
    Didn't.
    Mr Vibrating
    Yes I did.
    Man
    Didn't.
    Mr Vibrating
    Yes I did!!
    Man
    Look, this isn't an argument.
    Mr Vibrating
    Yes it is.
    Man
    No it isn't, it's just contradiction.
    Mr Vibrating
    No it isn't.
    Man
    Yes it is.
    Mr Vibrating
    It is not.
    Man
    It is. You just contradicted me.
    Mr Vibrating
    No I didn't.
    Man
    Ooh, you did!
    Mr Vibrating
    No, no, no, no, no.
    ...

    from Monty Python's Flying Circus
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member CTAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I've taken Road 1, Road 2 and the LCI Seminar. Yes, I passed.
    Ok, that explains.

  21. #21
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    I happen agree with his assertion, so it is your job to challenge him on grounds of substance, not mine. But you cannot just challenge an assertion with another assertion.
    Sigh. You're doing it again, only this time you're taking me to task for something that you did recently (where you took my words, and substituted in your own).

    Someone made an unsubstantiated assertion.
    I made an equivalent unsubstantiated assertion.

    The difference between what you and I did was that when you did it to me, you substituted absurdities that made it not equivalent to my original assertion. Do you know what I'm talking about? I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it.

  22. #22
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Sigh. You're doing it again, only this time you're taking me to task for something that you did recently (where you took my words, and substituted in your own).

    Someone made an unsubstantiated assertion.
    I made an equivalent unsubstantiated assertion.

    The difference between what you and I did was that when you did it to me, you substituted absurdities that made it not equivalent to my original assertion. Do you know what I'm talking about? I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it.
    No, I don't know what you are talking about. Do you?

  23. #23
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Sigh. You're doing it again, only this time you're taking me to task for something that you did recently (where you took my words, and substituted in your own).

    Someone made an unsubstantiated assertion.
    I made an equivalent unsubstantiated assertion.

    The difference between what you and I did was that when you did it to me, you substituted absurdities that made it not equivalent to my original assertion. Do you know what I'm talking about? I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it.
    What can I say, the absurdities were there as a parody in order to mock your unsubstantiated claims in an earlier post. Low blow, I know. I appologize.

    You thought I was serious??

    Difference here is, I think, you are being serious. That's why I've got to call you on it.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  24. #24
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTAC
    Ok, that explains.
    Note that he didn't attempt to deny what I said either.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  25. #25
    Senior Member CTAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Note that he didn't attempt to deny what I said either.
    Why would he? He has a paper saying that he is a worthy cyclist, and he paid money for that.

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