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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

View Poll Results: can a vehicular bicyclist ride in a striped road lane?
Yes, a vehicular cyclist can use a striped lane on a road. 17 51.52%
No, a vehicular cyclist cannot use striped lanes on a road. 3 9.09%
I have problems riding in traffic, lanes or not. 2 6.06%
I want chocolate before i cast a vote. 16 48.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-14-07, 11:52 PM   #1
Bekologist
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agree or disagree: part 3 of 2

do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

a bicyclist can ride vehicularily in a lane on a road.

please consider your anwser, and vote accordingly.
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Old 02-15-07, 07:29 AM   #2
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I say yes. unless saying yes can be used against me later. where's my chocolate?
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Old 02-15-07, 08:29 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

a bicyclist can ride vehicularily in a lane on a road.

please consider your anwser, and vote accordingly.
Personally I think a Vehicular Cyclist can use ANY lane on a road, and that includes a BL and/or MUP when available.
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Old 02-15-07, 09:00 AM   #4
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I trusted you and voted for yes, but also that I want chocolate first. Cough up the chocolate, pal.
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Old 02-15-07, 09:16 AM   #5
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Bek, I accuse you of having an ulterior motive with this poll. It's so obvious there's only one right answer.
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Old 02-15-07, 09:21 AM   #6
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I'm clarifying all the confusing vehicular cycling nonsense that gets posted in this forum.

the chocolate will be handed out later.
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Old 02-15-07, 09:29 AM   #7
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Peppermint has stripes too. I want peppermint.
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Old 02-15-07, 09:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist

the chocolate will be handed out later.
Yeah, like I'm gonna trust a used bike salesman!
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Old 02-15-07, 09:49 AM   #9
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all these roads have been only lightly used; the bikes are new old stock once owned by a little old lady in Pasadena.

The question stands; Can a cyclist ride vehicularily in a lane in a road?
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Old 02-15-07, 10:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

a bicyclist can ride vehicularily in a lane on a road.
I voted yes, even though we don't have any bike lanes around here. It doesn't seem like I would have much difficulty using (or avoiding) them as necessary. Then again I don't care much for chocolate so what do I know?
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Old 02-15-07, 11:19 AM   #11
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I have no idea who answered "no" to this pointless poll, or what he or she was thinking, but, FWIW, it wasn't me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
I'm clarifying all the confusing vehicular cycling nonsense that gets posted in this forum.
Yeah, right. That's like "clarifying" all the "confusing" wheel count nonsense over at Bicycle Mechanics by having a poll on whether bicycles have one, two or three wheels.

If the concept of whether a vehicular cyclist can use a striped lane is confusing to you or requires clarification, you must have fallen down on your head at least one too many times.

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Old 02-15-07, 11:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

a bicyclist can ride vehicularily in a lane on a road.

please consider your anwser, and vote accordingly.
I was going to say something, but then I saw "chocolate," and I was gone.
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Old 02-15-07, 11:37 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
...you must have fallen down on your head at least one too many times.
Watch it, I resemble that remark!
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Old 02-15-07, 12:23 PM   #14
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Well, I want chocolate before I vote, so I am waiting before I chose that option because, as of yet, I have recieved no chocolate.
But my opinion is, that barring the "vehicular cyclists" stupid principles, asuming he is one of those stupid VCists who refuses to ride on a road just because there is paint on it, any cyclist can ride on any rode he wishes. I would love it if there were lanes like that around here!
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Old 02-15-07, 01:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I have no idea who answered "no" to this pointless poll, or what he or she was thinking, but, FWIW, it wasn't me.


Yeah, right. That's like "clarifying" all the "confusing" wheel count nonsense over at Bicycle Mechanics by having a poll on whether bicycles have one, two or three wheels.

If the concept of whether a vehicular cyclist can use a striped lane is confusing to you or requires clarification, you must have fallen down on your head at least one too many times.

I think it does indeed need clarifying. It would seem that a certain feeling is promulgated that states that if a certain person abides by Vehicular Cycling principles that he eschews bike lanes or special use lanes as dangerous and therefore should not ride within them. I think Bek is trying to find out how many people believe in this idea and how many hold a more moderate position on what VC is. I voted Yes by the way but that should be obvious though I may have fallen on my head a few times in my youth suffering through several minor concussions. (by the way, what is it with all these inferences to low intelligence? Can't we just disagree without being stupid too?)
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Old 02-15-07, 01:36 PM   #16
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This is ridiculous! Everyone knows that NO vehicles of any type/sort belong on ANY road! So let's be done with ALL nonsense! Well, unless it involves that chocolate or peppermint that was mentioned...but that's not nonsense - this is serious! Oh, wait, I guess that a serious chocolate would align us with the criteria required for that-which-shall-not-be-named style of that-which-shall-not-be-named.
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Old 02-15-07, 01:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L.
I think it does indeed need clarifying. It would seem that a certain feeling is promulgated that states that if a certain person abides by Vehicular Cycling principles that he eschews bike lanes or special use lanes as dangerous and therefore should not ride within them.
Can you truly not comprehend and appreciate the distinction between being opposed to a particular type of demarcation of roadway space from opposition to using it just because it happens to be so demarcated?

Can you truly not comprehend and appreciate the distinction between being opposed to a particular type of demarcation of roadway space because of a belief that such demarcation promotes careless and dangerous behavior by those who do not appreciate the potential of it to do so, from eschewing the appropriate use of such space by those who do understand and appreciate the potential of it to do so?

If not (for either question), the evidence keeps rolling in...

Folks, this isn't rocket science. How often does this need to be clarified? I would think that after all this time, even Bek should be able to grasp this, much less you Paul.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 02-15-07 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 02-15-07, 02:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Can you truly not comprehend and appreciate the distinction between being opposed to a particular type of demarcation of roadway space from opposition to using it just because it happens to be so demarcated?
The diffference between being against a bike lane and against it just because it happens to be called a bike lane?
Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

Or perhaps you meant the difference between being against a bike lane and not using it only because you are against it and it is so set aside? Well, anything else would be a little hypocritical wouldn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Can you truly not comprehend and appreciate the distinction between being opposed to a particular type of demarcation of roadway space because of a belief that such demarcation promotes careless and dangerous behavior by those who do not appreciate the potential of it to do so, from eschewing the appropriate use of such space by those who do understand and appreciate the potential of it to do so?
The distinction between opposition to a bike lane because you believe it promotes careless and dangerous behavior by those not in the know and those who hate it because they fully well know?
Seems to me we are talking about the difference between a person who thinks bike lanes are bad because he believes most people are not smart enough to know better or how to use them wisely, and a person who hates them just for his percieved danger of them. I guess there is a bit of difference there. Both folks sound llike they are deciding what is best for the people without their input though.

Quote:
If not (for either question), the evidence keeps rolling in...

Folks, this isn't rocket science. How often does this need to be clarified? I would think that after all this time, even Bek should be able to grasp this.
The evidence does keep rolling in doesn't it. How clever of you to notice.

I am afraid I still agree with Bek.
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Old 02-15-07, 02:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Folks, this isn't rocket science. How often does this need to be clarified? I would think that after all this time...
We low IQ folks just can't understand High IQ derived clarifications. Understand?
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Old 02-15-07, 02:46 PM   #20
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Okay, this is the last time I'm venturing over, because for all of the discussion, I cannot for the life of me figure out what this argument is all about! Perhaps it's my dismally low IQ, but who is arguing for what???! Helmet Head? Are you for or against bike lanes - cause honestly, from your numerous posts, I can't tell anymore. *sigh*

Why don't you guys argue about the golf cart crossings? Do the guys in golf carts have the right to cross in marked crosswalks or should they be required to stop, get out of their carts and push them across (like we are required by law to do if we enter a crosswalk on a bike)? I think we should make the bastards push the carts across or else we shouldn't have to stop to let them cross!
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Old 02-15-07, 02:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merider1
Okay, this is the last time I'm venturing over, because for all of the discussion, I cannot for the life of me figure out what this argument is all about! Perhaps it's my dismally low IQ, but who is arguing for what???! Helmet Head? Are you for or against bike lanes - cause honestly, from your numerous posts, I can't tell anymore. *sigh*
There are a few low-I.Q. types here who believe that bicycle lanes are a good thing. Everybody else-- i.e., Helmet Head-- has a high I.Q., and therefore realizes that bike lanes are a bad thing, because all car/bike accidents can be attributed to bike lanes.
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Old 02-15-07, 03:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merider1
Okay, this is the last time I'm venturing over, because for all of the discussion, I cannot for the life of me figure out what this argument is all about! Perhaps it's my dismally low IQ, but who is arguing for what???! Helmet Head? Are you for or against bike lanes - cause honestly, from your numerous posts, I can't tell anymore. *sigh*
I am arguing for bike lanes, when they make sense, and no bike lanes where they do not. I think both philosophies have their place. I percieve that Helmet Head argues that Bike Lanes are dangerous more often than not and should not be used. So that is what I am arguing against.
Why? I can't say, I have sat out of this for probably a year or more and find it highly entertaining to come back and find I haven't missed a thing. Perhaps I will take another hiatus and come back when things change, but sometimes it is fun to just come in here and be called a neandrathal sometimes by those in the know.

Oops, not everything is the same, last time I discussed things with Helmet Head he actually discussed things with me such as lane filtering being facilitated by bike lanes in states where lane filtering was illegal.
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Old 02-15-07, 03:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L.
Helmet Head argues that Bike Lanes are dangerous more often than not
Actually, Helmet Head argues that bike lanes cause accidents, period. For Helmet Head, there is no such thing as a safe bike lane.

EDIT: In fact, even where bike lanes DO NOT exist, HH will argue, they lead to harassment of cyclists, because cyclists "belong" in bike lanes.
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Old 02-15-07, 03:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L.
The diffference between being against a bike lane and against it just because it happens to be called a bike lane?
Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

Or perhaps you meant the difference between being against a bike lane and not using it only because you are against it and it is so set aside? Well, anything else would be a little hypocritical wouldn't it?
Holy cow, you really don't get it.


Quote:
The distinction between opposition to a bike lane because you believe it promotes careless and dangerous behavior by those not in the know and those who hate it because they fully well know?
Seems to me we are talking about the difference between a person who thinks bike lanes are bad because he believes most people are not smart enough to know better or how to use them wisely, and a person who hates them just for his percieved danger of them. I guess there is a bit of difference there. Both folks sound llike they are deciding what is best for the people without their input though.

The evidence does keep rolling in doesn't it. How clever of you to notice.

I am afraid I still agree with Bek.
I never said anything about hating bike lanes. I'm opposed to them because think they cause more harm than good for cyclists.

I'm opposed to polluted air. Am I a hypocrite if I breath it anyway?

You don't need to agree with these. But can you accept that I believe the following to be true?
  1. Bike lanes promote inappropriately carefree/careless cycling by those cyclists who are unaware of the much higher risk they are exposed to by traffic crossing movements than from same-direction traffic movements.
  2. Bike lanes encourage inappropriate behavior by motorists at intersections, particularly at right turns where the rightmost lane is straight-or-right by encouraging them to turn right from a too-far-left position.
  3. Bike lanes cause the accumulation of rubble and debris at road edges.
  4. The existence of bike lanes on the roadway reinforces the notion that cyclists should be "out of the way" of people driving cars.
  5. Bike lanes reduce the amount of space cyclists have a legally-protected right to use by making off-limits the foot on either side of the BL stripe (when riding with tires within a foot of the stripe, the 2' wide cyclist is technically encroaching on the adjacent lane, and technically making an illegal lane change, making him legally liable if sideswiped by a passing motorist; with the stripe absent, the legal onus is on the passing motorist to pass with a safe distance, even if the cyclist is riding in the space where the stripe would be if it was there).
Again, you don't need to agree or debate with any of these points, but can you see there is no contradiction in being opposed to bike lanes for the above reasons while at the same time never-the-less not necessarily being opposed to using roadway space that happens to be demarcated by a bike lane stripe, particularly between intersections?
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Old 02-15-07, 03:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Order
There are a few low-I.Q. types here who believe that bicycle lanes are a good thing. Everybody else-- i.e., Helmet Head-- has a high I.Q., and therefore realizes that bike lanes are a bad thing, because all car/bike accidents can be attributed to bike lanes.
This is not an accurate or fair characterization of my position (a point of frustration for me is that those who supposedly disagree with me can't even explain my position/argument without exaggerating and mischaracterizing it, which indicates they don't even understand what they're disagreeing with).

I do oppose bike lanes (except in certain exceptional situations with long intersectionless stretches of roadway and very high speed motor traffic, particularly where slow moving vehicles are prohibited - like on freeways, and on certain bridges and tunnels) because I believe they cause more harm than good for cyclists for reasons outlined (but not discussed in detail) above.
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