Cyclist killed by PU driver leaving parking lot - discussion
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
A 'verify' requirement would lead to stimulus overload and stopping the bicycle, a lot, to attempt to achieve this 'verification' this other poster uses as a pet construct from the armchair.
how a rider 'verifies' they see you is pure conjecture. As I approach cars at intersections, I find drivers make pointedly obtuse attempts to NOT make eye contact with bicyclists.
how a rider 'verifies' they see you is pure conjecture. As I approach cars at intersections, I find drivers make pointedly obtuse attempts to NOT make eye contact with bicyclists.
Second, it's not about verifying whether any and every driver has noticed you. Doing that would indeed lead to stimulus overload. Fortunately, for the most part, it doesn't matter whether they've noticed you or not. So the first trick is to identify those few drivers whose attention your safety is about to depend on, before you put yourself into a situation where your safety does depend on their noticing you. If you can't verify that, you just avoid putting yourself in the situation where your safety depends on their noticing you, and that rarely requires coming to a complete stop. It may involve slowing (and, yes, yielding), but usually can be done by increasing your safety buffer. But I agree with Chip that it's mostly a matter of being prepared mentally. This is really nothing more than a rewording of one of Robert Hurst's main themes in Urban Cycling.
Originally Posted by Bekologist
no, the 'trust, but verify' constructs is armchair riding. Its a make believe construct.
Verify drivers how? using two way radio? a cell phone? semaphore? smoke signals?
or how about trust, and plan for Murphy?
Verify drivers how? using two way radio? a cell phone? semaphore? smoke signals?
or how about trust, and plan for Murphy?
For example, say you're approaching an uncontrolled intersection and someone coming the other way is slowing and signalling left; there is no other traffic. In that situation, if you weren't there, the normal/expected behavior for the driver is to slow some, but not stop, as he enters the intersection and turns left. If the driver is looking in your direction and altering from this normal expected behavior (slowing way down or even stopping, not beginning to turn yet, for no plausible reason other than to yield to you) then I would count that as a verification that they've noticed you. My main point is that if you are not getting any clues like that, then you should not enter the intersection in their path, even though you have the right of way. In any case, whether you think they've noticed you or not, you should be ready to quick turn to the right.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
This is really nothing more than a rewording of one of Robert Hurst's main themes in Urban Cycling.
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Drivers not paying attention at driveways and sidestreets seems to a problem that very much depends on the type of day and intersection. Near my old workplace there was a major four lane street with pedestrian crosssings. On no fewer than 5 or 6 occasions I was nearly run down by drivers not even bothering to look for others. At least twice I kicked fenders. In other parts of the city if a driver thought you looked like you might want to cross in the middle of an intersection, they stopped instantly. Also, certain times of the day are worse than others as I noticed an increased density of squirrelly drivers during the morning and afternoon rush. Friday afternoons were the absolute worst.
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At a minimum if you attempt to make eye contact and the person is obviously not looking at you, you will know it and take caution.
And all this armchair cycling nonsense is ridiculous. I ride my bike 70-100 miles a week at a blistering 12-14 mph. So that means quite a few hours. I seem to be the only one who doesn't whine about the evil cagers. I must be doing something right.
And all this armchair cycling nonsense is ridiculous. I ride my bike 70-100 miles a week at a blistering 12-14 mph. So that means quite a few hours. I seem to be the only one who doesn't whine about the evil cagers. I must be doing something right.
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Turning danger
A driver will only look in the direction that he expects cars to drive from! There's no such thing as looking both ways! Usually a left look is al they need?
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Originally Posted by slowandsteady
At a minimum if you attempt to make eye contact and the person is obviously not looking at you, you will know it and take caution.
And all this armchair cycling nonsense is ridiculous. I ride my bike 70-100 miles a week at a blistering 12-14 mph. So that means quite a few hours. I seem to be the only one who doesn't whine about the evil cagers. I must be doing something right.
And all this armchair cycling nonsense is ridiculous. I ride my bike 70-100 miles a week at a blistering 12-14 mph. So that means quite a few hours. I seem to be the only one who doesn't whine about the evil cagers. I must be doing something right.
Trust me, you're not the only one not whining about the "evil cagers". Joejack, Galen, John Forester, Robert Hurst, Stephen Goodridge, Daily Commute, noisebeam, etc. etc., come to mind...
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Originally Posted by scubajim49
A driver will only look in the direction that he expects cars to drive from! There's no such thing as looking both ways! Usually a left look is al they need?
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Originally Posted by genec
While I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situations, I have seen that the hurried motorist simply assumes the road is clear... perhaps because it is a less used road or exit (in the case of a shopping mall) and they just blast right through.
I just don't see what the issue is.
The only solution seems to be to assume no one is going to stop and slow down and prepare to stop yourself... yet this seems to give motorists the impression that you are stopping for them.
I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.[/QUOTE]
The lack of hesitation is exactly that lack of verification that I'm talking about. Hestiation that is peculiar to noticing me is exactly what I'm looking for: confirmation that I'm seen. If they don't hesitate, they just go... so what? You shouldn't be somewhere we're you'll be hit by them when the do that since you were not yet able to confirm that they noticed you. That's the whole point.
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Originally Posted by remsav
Yeah lot of them only look left when making a right, I would say close to 25% in my experience didn't look both ways. Too bad we don't give polygraph test for these types of cases. I really think we should mandate poly for all cases not just murder, missing persons.
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Here's what happened to me on the way to work one day last week.
It's pitch-black-dark on a two-lane, NOL, rural highway with paved shoulders and a 60 mph speed limit. No ambient light at all on this stretch. Any light stands out from the darkness like a beacon. T intersection, one of the few intersections on this stretch of highway and one of the even fewer paved intersections. The highway is the through street in this intersection and I'm in the right tire track of the right lane. I'm running a headlight on my handlebars. The batteries in my helmet light had died very shortly before this incident and I decided not to change them, even though I had fresh ones in my panniers. In the time it took to stop and change the batteries in that one light, I would be over half-way from where I was to where I was going. On the rear I have a Cateye TL-LD500, steady on, as backup to my Cateye TL-LD1000 which also provides side visibility, one bank steady on, the other on rapid flash. I have had on-coming cars pull off the road and stop because of the red flashing TL-LD1000, even though it is pointing away from them. I have reflective tape on the forks and seatstays for additional side visibility. I'm wearing reflective tape on my helmet and a ANSI yellow vest with ANSI orange reflective srips.
A motor vehicle is approaching the insection from my right, he has the stop sign. He stops at the stop sign, and proceeds to turn right just as I'm reaching the intersection. I had to swerve into the oncoming lane to keep from getting sideswiped.
"HEY DUDE, YOU ALMOST HIT ME!! J***-A**!!!"
He easily heard me, even with the windows rolled up.
I expect him to accelerate to get away.
He stops.
I'm thinking we're going to throw-down in the middle of the highway in the dark. I don't care, I'm ready.
He rolls his drivers side window down, I stop still straddling the bike, far enough from his door he can't knock me over, but I can be off the bike before he can get out.
"I am very sorry, sir. I did not see you."
This is not what I expected at all, now I'm struggling to mentally shift gears.
"I am very sorry, I promise to be more careful in the future."
"Uh, yeah, okay. I'm sorry too, and I'll do a better job with the lights."
"I'm sorry, I'll be much more careful."
"I'm sorry, too. I'll do a better job with the lights. Thank you. Have a nice day."
"Thank you, sir. You have a nice day, too."
He drives off.
What really happened was he easily saw me and thought, "Bicycle=pedestrian speed=5 mph." By the time he took his eyes off me, looked to his right and began his turn, I was in the intersection at 18+ mph.
Lessons learned on my part:
Be prepared to hit the brakes, even when you know you're right. If there had been an oncoming car I would have done this and this incident would have played out a different way and without the polite conversation.
Know the limits of the batteries for all your lights and stay within them.
If the batteries in your lights die, stop and change them.
That bike now has DOT C-2 certified reflective tape on it and more than before, with plans to DOT C-2 certified reflective tape my other bikes.
The spare headlight that used to ride in my panniers is now mounted on the handlebars as a second primary headlight. That with my helmet light gives me three headlights.
This holds up my end of the bargain.
I want to find this guy and get to know him. Even though he lied (only because he didn't know what else to say, but there's nothing else you really can say in a situation like that), by stopping and apologizing he proved himself to be a man of honor and a gentleman.
It's pitch-black-dark on a two-lane, NOL, rural highway with paved shoulders and a 60 mph speed limit. No ambient light at all on this stretch. Any light stands out from the darkness like a beacon. T intersection, one of the few intersections on this stretch of highway and one of the even fewer paved intersections. The highway is the through street in this intersection and I'm in the right tire track of the right lane. I'm running a headlight on my handlebars. The batteries in my helmet light had died very shortly before this incident and I decided not to change them, even though I had fresh ones in my panniers. In the time it took to stop and change the batteries in that one light, I would be over half-way from where I was to where I was going. On the rear I have a Cateye TL-LD500, steady on, as backup to my Cateye TL-LD1000 which also provides side visibility, one bank steady on, the other on rapid flash. I have had on-coming cars pull off the road and stop because of the red flashing TL-LD1000, even though it is pointing away from them. I have reflective tape on the forks and seatstays for additional side visibility. I'm wearing reflective tape on my helmet and a ANSI yellow vest with ANSI orange reflective srips.
A motor vehicle is approaching the insection from my right, he has the stop sign. He stops at the stop sign, and proceeds to turn right just as I'm reaching the intersection. I had to swerve into the oncoming lane to keep from getting sideswiped.
"HEY DUDE, YOU ALMOST HIT ME!! J***-A**!!!"
He easily heard me, even with the windows rolled up.
I expect him to accelerate to get away.
He stops.
I'm thinking we're going to throw-down in the middle of the highway in the dark. I don't care, I'm ready.
He rolls his drivers side window down, I stop still straddling the bike, far enough from his door he can't knock me over, but I can be off the bike before he can get out.
"I am very sorry, sir. I did not see you."
This is not what I expected at all, now I'm struggling to mentally shift gears.
"I am very sorry, I promise to be more careful in the future."
"Uh, yeah, okay. I'm sorry too, and I'll do a better job with the lights."
"I'm sorry, I'll be much more careful."
"I'm sorry, too. I'll do a better job with the lights. Thank you. Have a nice day."
"Thank you, sir. You have a nice day, too."
He drives off.
What really happened was he easily saw me and thought, "Bicycle=pedestrian speed=5 mph." By the time he took his eyes off me, looked to his right and began his turn, I was in the intersection at 18+ mph.
Lessons learned on my part:
Be prepared to hit the brakes, even when you know you're right. If there had been an oncoming car I would have done this and this incident would have played out a different way and without the polite conversation.
Know the limits of the batteries for all your lights and stay within them.
If the batteries in your lights die, stop and change them.
That bike now has DOT C-2 certified reflective tape on it and more than before, with plans to DOT C-2 certified reflective tape my other bikes.
The spare headlight that used to ride in my panniers is now mounted on the handlebars as a second primary headlight. That with my helmet light gives me three headlights.
This holds up my end of the bargain.
I want to find this guy and get to know him. Even though he lied (only because he didn't know what else to say, but there's nothing else you really can say in a situation like that), by stopping and apologizing he proved himself to be a man of honor and a gentleman.
Last edited by CommuterRun; 02-28-07 at 05:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by CommuterRun
...
I'm in the right tire track of the right lane.
...
A motor vehicle is approaching the insection from my right, he has the stop sign. He stops at the stop sign, and proceeds to turn right just as I'm reaching the intersection. I had to swerve into the oncoming lane to keep from getting sideswiped.
...
Lessons learned on my part:
Be prepared to hit the brakes, even when you know you're right. If there had been an on-coming car I would have done this and this incident would have played out a different way and without the polite conversation.
Know the limits of the batteries for all your lights and stay with-in them.
If the batteries in your lights die, stop and change them.
That bike now has DOT C-2 certified reflective tape on it and more than before, with plans to DOT C-2 certified reflective tape my other bikes.
The spare headlight that used to ride in my panniers is now mounted on the handlebars as a second primary headlight. That with my helmet light gives me three headlights.
...
I want to find this guy and get to know him. Even though he lied (only because he didn't know what else to say, but there's nothing else you really can say in a situation like that), by stopping and apologizing he proved himself to be a man of honor and a gentleman.
I'm in the right tire track of the right lane.
...
A motor vehicle is approaching the insection from my right, he has the stop sign. He stops at the stop sign, and proceeds to turn right just as I'm reaching the intersection. I had to swerve into the oncoming lane to keep from getting sideswiped.
...
Lessons learned on my part:
Be prepared to hit the brakes, even when you know you're right. If there had been an on-coming car I would have done this and this incident would have played out a different way and without the polite conversation.
Know the limits of the batteries for all your lights and stay with-in them.
If the batteries in your lights die, stop and change them.
That bike now has DOT C-2 certified reflective tape on it and more than before, with plans to DOT C-2 certified reflective tape my other bikes.
The spare headlight that used to ride in my panniers is now mounted on the handlebars as a second primary headlight. That with my helmet light gives me three headlights.
...
I want to find this guy and get to know him. Even though he lied (only because he didn't know what else to say, but there's nothing else you really can say in a situation like that), by stopping and apologizing he proved himself to be a man of honor and a gentleman.
If you're right, I think he didn't fully understand what happened, and "didn't see you" was really the best way he could explain it. I suspect he ignored you subconsciously, because his subconscious didn't realize you were a threat/hazard, and, so, consciously, it was honest of him to say he "didn't see you". So I wouldn't call it a lie.
To your list of lessons I would add:
When approaching any intersection where right turns are authorized (and/or from which traffic can emerge), look back over your left shoulder and consider merging left, especially if there is no same direction behind you, and there is traffic from the right. Doing so accomplishes all of the following:
- The movement left can be attention grabbing.
- The movement left puts you further into the driver's "zone of attention'.
- The sight lines to and from you are improved.
- Your buffer zone is increased (in particular, if he does go, you are further from him and so have more time/space to evade).
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Good story!
If you're right, I think he didn't fully understand what happened, and "didn't see you" was really the best way he could explain it. I suspect he ignored you subconsciously, because his subconscious didn't realize you were a threat/hazard, and, so, consciously, it was honest of him to say he "didn't see you". So I wouldn't call it a lie.
If you're right, I think he didn't fully understand what happened, and "didn't see you" was really the best way he could explain it. I suspect he ignored you subconsciously, because his subconscious didn't realize you were a threat/hazard, and, so, consciously, it was honest of him to say he "didn't see you". So I wouldn't call it a lie.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
To your list of lessons I would add:
When approaching any intersection where right turns are authorized (and/or from which traffic can emerge), look back over your left shoulder and consider merging left, especially if there is no same direction behind you, and there is traffic from the right. Doing so accomplishes all of the following:
When approaching any intersection where right turns are authorized (and/or from which traffic can emerge), look back over your left shoulder and consider merging left, especially if there is no same direction behind you, and there is traffic from the right. Doing so accomplishes all of the following:
- The movement left can be attention grabbing.
- The movement left puts you further into the driver's "zone of attention'.
- The sight lines to and from you are improved.
- Your buffer zone is increased (in particular, if he does go, you are further from him and so have more time/space to evade).
But I agree with your points about why generally shifting left is a good idea at intersections.
Last edited by CommuterRun; 03-01-07 at 03:31 AM.
#38
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Originally Posted by twahl
I have noticed that when I'm wearing one of my brighter jerseys, they become more aware, and if I have on my vest, it never happens. They may start to pull on out in front of me but will stop. I really do think that it's a combo of self-indulgence and the natural instinct to be focused on things that are threats to you.
And the problem isn't just with drivers, I see people on bikes do exactly the same thing all the time.
And the problem isn't just with drivers, I see people on bikes do exactly the same thing all the time.
I think a lot of this comes from motorists trying to "sneak by," figuring "it's just a biker... " I think some of it comes from underestimating the speed of cyclists and some comes from a lack of respect.
#39
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
What do you mean by, "I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situation". I mean, can you, or not? I, for one, expect a motorist to pull out of these driveway, take a quick glance, and go. The way I verify that they did notice me is that they don't do that... they glance, and stop, staring at me. Perhaps they look away, and then look back at me, making it obvious that they're waiting for me to go by. Absent that kind of confirmation, I do what I have to do. I'm probably already in a conspicuous centerish position, but I might merge further left into the left tire track (or even into the far left lane if there is no other same direction traffic). But the main thing is, per Chipcom's advice, to be mentally prepared. If there is no way to avoid having my safety depend on their noticing me before I can verify that they have noticed me, without slowing down, then I will slow down. Perhaps that's all they need to notice to cut out in front of me... So what? Let 'em go. That rarely happens to me. I can't remember the last time I actually had to slow down and someone took advantage of that like that.
I just don't see what the issue is.
Why? Why can't you observe them and note that they are behaving in a way that is peculiar to having noticed you? Sure, if you can't make that kind of confirmation, then you're crazy to proceed into space where you're vulnerable to get hit by them.
I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.
I just don't see what the issue is.
Why? Why can't you observe them and note that they are behaving in a way that is peculiar to having noticed you? Sure, if you can't make that kind of confirmation, then you're crazy to proceed into space where you're vulnerable to get hit by them.
I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.
Hey I wasn't hit in any of these situations... so clearly I can judge that drivers are being bad.
My issue is that the motorists I mention are not even trying. At higher speeds the driver just cruising a stop sign or doing a quick glance might be moving so fast that a cyclist moving at say 35MPH on an intersecting course doesn't even see the car until they make contact. Yet again it comes down to cyclists having to CYA due to motorists that chose to not even try.
In the case of two of these drivers, they zoomed out in such a way that I could not see them until I was right in their path... due to other obstructions (cars, houses, bushes) and a narrow road.
Yeah I avoided them all, but not everyone can... as evidenced by a recent death.
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Originally Posted by CommuterRun
A couple of reasons why I don't normally move left for this particular intersection are, the maneuver that the driver pulled in this incident is very rare for drivers in this area, normally they will ...
I remember reading somewhere that you're most likely to get in a car crash within some really short distance from your home. I suspect this applies to cyclists too, and for the same reason. On our regular routes we are more apt to get complacent and go on "auto pilot". That's why it's important to develop habits that conform to best practices, so that even when you're on autopilot you're compelled (by habit) to look back and merge left (if it's clear). Such habits are also good for snapping you out of mindless autopilot mode...
#41
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The "sneak by" just because it's a "fill in the blank smaller than me" vehicle is something I experienced 3 times in 10 minutes yesterday morning, despite driving a fire engine red Vespa with the headlight on, despite riding down the center of the lane, despite drivers even looking right at me.
And yeah, come to think of it, people emerging from private drives is probably the most common close call I have, especially if they have to back out, and especially if they are driving something large. It happens so much that sometimes if I see a vehicle backing out of a driveway I just ride on the wrong side of the road.
And yeah, come to think of it, people emerging from private drives is probably the most common close call I have, especially if they have to back out, and especially if they are driving something large. It happens so much that sometimes if I see a vehicle backing out of a driveway I just ride on the wrong side of the road.
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the "trust but verify" statement, conjured up to explain America's failure to follow disarmament treaties during the cold war, is some of the most worthless, empty, pedantic armchair riding advice I've seen from helmet head.
IF he rode a fair bit, he'd know that 'verifying' a driver has seen you is impossible. I can be riding down the MIDDLE of the travel lane, as a steady stream of traffic approaches me in the opposite lane. AT night- or during the day. Lots of intersections, driveways, etc.
VERIFYING they've noticed me as a bicyclist? plueaze, what artifice....
trust but verify is pithy, worthless witicism; armchair advice about riding.
It doesn't happen, you don't get to 'verify' anything. You can see a car stopped at an intersection, and be able to verify NOTHING, even while riding smack dab in the middle of the lane. Are they going to pull out? yes? no?
worthless advice. A pathetic masquerade of the armchair cyclist.
Now, i'm out taking the lane, riding assertively and defensively, more than most (and certainly more than those like HH that drive more than half their paltry 6 mile commutes) signalling my intent "I'm pulling thru this intersection" by signalling straight aheads, etc, watching cars for signs of pulling out, but "verify?"
i'll leave that to armchair games played by the sophist about his "bicycling" technique.
IF he rode a fair bit, he'd know that 'verifying' a driver has seen you is impossible. I can be riding down the MIDDLE of the travel lane, as a steady stream of traffic approaches me in the opposite lane. AT night- or during the day. Lots of intersections, driveways, etc.
VERIFYING they've noticed me as a bicyclist? plueaze, what artifice....
trust but verify is pithy, worthless witicism; armchair advice about riding.
It doesn't happen, you don't get to 'verify' anything. You can see a car stopped at an intersection, and be able to verify NOTHING, even while riding smack dab in the middle of the lane. Are they going to pull out? yes? no?
worthless advice. A pathetic masquerade of the armchair cyclist.
Now, i'm out taking the lane, riding assertively and defensively, more than most (and certainly more than those like HH that drive more than half their paltry 6 mile commutes) signalling my intent "I'm pulling thru this intersection" by signalling straight aheads, etc, watching cars for signs of pulling out, but "verify?"
i'll leave that to armchair games played by the sophist about his "bicycling" technique.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Such habits are also good for snapping you out of mindless autopilot mode...
Last edited by CommuterRun; 03-01-07 at 04:49 AM.
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genec
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
The "sneak by" just because it's a "fill in the blank smaller than me" vehicle is something I experienced 3 times in 10 minutes yesterday morning, despite driving a fire engine red Vespa with the headlight on, despite riding down the center of the lane, despite drivers even looking right at me.
And yeah, come to think of it, people emerging from private drives is probably the most common close call I have, especially if they have to back out, and especially if they are driving something large. It happens so much that sometimes if I see a vehicle backing out of a driveway I just ride on the wrong side of the road.
And yeah, come to think of it, people emerging from private drives is probably the most common close call I have, especially if they have to back out, and especially if they are driving something large. It happens so much that sometimes if I see a vehicle backing out of a driveway I just ride on the wrong side of the road.
What I am talking about are vehicles coming straight out of mall like driveways... and plunging right into the street because either the motorists assume nothing is there, or they don't give a damn, or they see a bike and make a decision that "bikes don't matter" or that they can squeeze by/force you anyway. I do think size does have something to do with it... where these motorists are using size to determine ROW vice the very well thought out rules that are supposed to govern their thinking.
I see the same thing where smaller residential streets meet faster streets... where again, motorists make the assumption that it is clear by default, and stop signs in their "hood" don't matter to them.
Sure a sharp cyclist is going to pick this up and be alert for it. I was, I saw it, I stopped, and I did not get creamed. (this time) But the fact remains that it is motorists choosing to not follow ROW that is making our task just a bit more defensive.
And again at a higher bike speed (bike speed in particular) I have less room to react, and the potential damage of a collision is greater.
So imagine that in any situation, you are a sharp cyclist moving at 35-45MPH down a hill, and center biased in the road, and well conspicuous in your lime green jacket... and poised for defense... why would you ever hit a car entering from a side street? or making a left turn across you?
It does and has happened. So there must be a flaw somewhere.
#45
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
the "trust but verify" statement, conjured up to explain America's failure to follow disarmament treaties during the cold war, is some of the most worthless, empty, pedantic armchair riding advice I've seen from helmet head.
IF he rode a fair bit, he'd know that 'verifying' a driver has seen you is impossible. I can be riding down the MIDDLE of the travel lane, as a steady stream of traffic approaches me in the opposite lane. AT night- or during the day. Lots of intersections, driveways, etc.
VERIFYING they've noticed me as a bicyclist? plueaze, what artifice....
trust but verify is pithy, worthless witicism; armchair advice about riding.
It doesn't happen, you don't get to 'verify' anything. You can see a car stopped at an intersection, and be able to verify NOTHING, even while riding smack dab in the middle of the lane. Are they going to pull out? yes? no?
worthless advice. A pathetic masquerade of the armchair cyclist.
Now, i'm out taking the lane, riding assertively and defensively, more than most (and certainly more than those like HH that drive more than half their paltry 6 mile commutes) signalling my intent "I'm pulling thru this intersection" by signalling straight aheads, etc, watching cars for signs of pulling out, but "verify?"
i'll leave that to armchair games played by the sophist about his "bicycling" technique.
IF he rode a fair bit, he'd know that 'verifying' a driver has seen you is impossible. I can be riding down the MIDDLE of the travel lane, as a steady stream of traffic approaches me in the opposite lane. AT night- or during the day. Lots of intersections, driveways, etc.
VERIFYING they've noticed me as a bicyclist? plueaze, what artifice....
trust but verify is pithy, worthless witicism; armchair advice about riding.
It doesn't happen, you don't get to 'verify' anything. You can see a car stopped at an intersection, and be able to verify NOTHING, even while riding smack dab in the middle of the lane. Are they going to pull out? yes? no?
worthless advice. A pathetic masquerade of the armchair cyclist.
Now, i'm out taking the lane, riding assertively and defensively, more than most (and certainly more than those like HH that drive more than half their paltry 6 mile commutes) signalling my intent "I'm pulling thru this intersection" by signalling straight aheads, etc, watching cars for signs of pulling out, but "verify?"
i'll leave that to armchair games played by the sophist about his "bicycling" technique.
So don't do it and stop whining. HH isn't the only one who does this. And not everyone who does things differently from you is an armchair cyclist. You don't know me from a hole in the wall. How do you know how much I ride or don't ride?
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Look, slow and steady, I'm not criticising you or your 70-100 miles a week. that's about my mileage, but did 40 on Sunday and 60 on Tuesday, so this week I'm up a bit.
However, if you attempt to use mr. head's 'trust, but verify'- man, what a WORTHLESS statement- while bicycling, and have to 'verify' every single car is 'noticing' you with some physical or lane que they've done so, but its unrealistic traffic scenario, one made up and constructed by a great armchair rider.
this is just bunk, armchair riding of the lowest order. there's lots of potential of unsignallled left hooks, even while riding smack dab in the center of the road. helemt head might be trying to tell people to
"BE OBSERVANT" while riding, and I agree with that, but 'trust, but verify' is paranoid musings from an armchair.
Think straight roads, lots of intersections, lots of oncoming traffic. 'peculiar' verification of a car noticing you? I call BS.
I watch for cues a car HASN'T noticed me. this pithy 'trust but verify' cold war slogan rings hollow for bicycling. it sure sounds good in the armchair though, i bet.
However, if you attempt to use mr. head's 'trust, but verify'- man, what a WORTHLESS statement- while bicycling, and have to 'verify' every single car is 'noticing' you with some physical or lane que they've done so, but its unrealistic traffic scenario, one made up and constructed by a great armchair rider.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Why? Why can't you observe them and note that they are behaving in a way that is peculiar to having noticed you? Sure, if you can't make that kind of confirmation, then you're crazy to proceed into space where you're vulnerable to get hit by them.
"BE OBSERVANT" while riding, and I agree with that, but 'trust, but verify' is paranoid musings from an armchair.
Think straight roads, lots of intersections, lots of oncoming traffic. 'peculiar' verification of a car noticing you? I call BS.
I watch for cues a car HASN'T noticed me. this pithy 'trust but verify' cold war slogan rings hollow for bicycling. it sure sounds good in the armchair though, i bet.
#47
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Originally Posted by genec
I think a lot of this comes from motorists trying to "sneak by," figuring "it's just a biker... " I think some of it comes from underestimating the speed of cyclists and some comes from a lack of respect.
Al
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However, if you attempt to use mr. head's 'trust, but verify'- man, what a WORTHLESS statement- while bicycling, and have to 'verify' every single car is 'noticing' you with some physical or lane que they've done so, but its unrealistic traffic scenario, one made up and constructed by a great armchair rider.
Frankly its egocentric. Not everyone rides where you ride, when you ride, on the bike you ride, with the traffic you ride with. There are about 6 billion other people in the world NOT like you.
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agree with that.
I find 'trust, but verify' a meaningless, vacous, cold war slogan being used as some type of traffic advice when its really nonsense. Verify a car has seen you? please. as a cyclist, you verify nothing. even a car stopped with a driver looking straight at you may pull out, even after you've supossedly 'verified' the driver has stopped for you. as in Gene's examples.
I find 'trust, but verify' a misappropriation of a cold war slogan that actually DOESN'T carry over to riding technique. you as a rider get to verify nothing about the automobiles. until they've ceased to be a concern, at which time you could verify you've passed them safely, i guess.
worthless musings of an armchair cyclist (not YOU, slow and steady) do you actually say to yourself "trust, but verify" when you pass other traffic? that's ridiculous in my personal, high mileage opinion. you're free to do what you want, but the advice to
"verify" a driver sees you, using some visual cue, before you put yourself in potential conflict zone is HIGHLY UNREALISTIC for on road riding.
I find 'trust, but verify' a meaningless, vacous, cold war slogan being used as some type of traffic advice when its really nonsense. Verify a car has seen you? please. as a cyclist, you verify nothing. even a car stopped with a driver looking straight at you may pull out, even after you've supossedly 'verified' the driver has stopped for you. as in Gene's examples.
I find 'trust, but verify' a misappropriation of a cold war slogan that actually DOESN'T carry over to riding technique. you as a rider get to verify nothing about the automobiles. until they've ceased to be a concern, at which time you could verify you've passed them safely, i guess.
worthless musings of an armchair cyclist (not YOU, slow and steady) do you actually say to yourself "trust, but verify" when you pass other traffic? that's ridiculous in my personal, high mileage opinion. you're free to do what you want, but the advice to
"verify" a driver sees you, using some visual cue, before you put yourself in potential conflict zone is HIGHLY UNREALISTIC for on road riding.
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
The "sneak by" just because it's a "fill in the blank smaller than me" vehicle ...
A lot of good stuff in this thread, but a few misconceptions. First, I'll back up: I am a driver. I drive an average of 40-50k miles a year on all kinds of conditions - city, countryside and suburbs. In all kinds of vehicles - large box trucks, sports cars, FedEx delivery truck, minivan, etc. And I drive for fun, for employment and even for competition. I am well into the second million miles since my last accident (1981!) Just so's you know where I'm coming from. Here are some of my accident-prevention tips, many of them also apply to cycling:
On the "trust and verify" thing. I think a better way to put it is to "look and read" . Look at each driver who could put you in an unsafe situation, and try to read his/her intentions. Whether you get actual eye contact or not is not crucial, but it helps if you do. The window-tint thing makes this tougher...I wish police would do a better job of enforcing those rules.
Yes, people (me included) often coast a car out of a parking lot. In most cases, there isn't a stop sign or painted stop bar to prevent it (although deputy's comment about Michigan's state law made me think ("Hmmmm").
In my personal driving rules (an actual, as-yet-unwritten book that is lodged in my brain) this discussion falls under the general category of "Assume the Worst". In any traffic situation, I assume that the other driver is going to do the wrong thing and prepare in my mind what would be my "out" of the situation that the "wrong thing" caused. If someone is approaching the street from the side, I expect them not to stop...until they actually do. Before it comes to that decision point, I have already looked behind me and to my left for potential escape routes. And if they don't appear to be paying attention, I've already begun to avoid their ****-up before it happens.
Another tip relevant to this topic is: Don't just look for the driver's eyes...always look at the front wheel(s) of the other car. Anything the vehicle is going to do (dynamically) will be visible first at the front wheel.