Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 215
  1. #26
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We're working on some guidelines. If anyone wishes to start a thread about VC issues, there is a forum just for that. What we do not want to see is every A&S thread hijacked and turned into a VC debate. There is no easy solution here.

    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Seems fine with me. Recommend that you also put any ghoulish gloating/speculating over deaths of cyclists due to alleged improper technique be put in this subforum also.
    I'm hoping that a thread like that can be discussed without dragging the VC debate into it. To be very honest, I hope to keep threads that are informative in A&S, and the rubbish will go into VC. And that's not to say that I have an opinion one way or another about vehicular cycling, only that those threads quickly go south, and any useful information is tossed aside in favor of bickering.

  2. #27
    Ride the Road Daily Commute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    My Bikes
    Surly Cross-Check; hard tail MTB
    Posts
    4,059
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patc
    So, is VC discussion banned from A&S? Is there to be a policy statement on this at the top of the forum? If the plan is simply to move all VC threads to the new sub-forums, as such threads emmerge/degenerate, that seems like a lot of work for the mods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Rosar
    And if it is, is VC-contrary discussion also banned?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    We're working on some guidelines. If anyone wishes to start a thread about VC issues, there is a forum just for that. What we do not want to see is every A&S thread hijacked and turned into a VC debate. There is no easy solution here. . . .
    This will be the key. The last time some members tried to create VC-free threads (the short-lived "AC" movement), they started throwing rhetorical bombs at other members they didn't like, and then tried to hide behind a sympathetic mod when anyone responded.

    To bring up the main topic of disagreement--bike lanes--will praise be allowed in the main forum while criticism is banned?

    Maybe the best way is to save the VC section for any thread that "deteriorates." If people play fair, and abide by the forum guidelines on "harassment" and "respect," the thread can stay in the main section. But if people on either side start throwing pro- or anti-VC attacks, then it gets moved here.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    My Bikes
    Road, Mtn, Tandem
    Posts
    760
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    ... I hope ... the rubbish will go into VC. And that's not to say that I have an opinion one way or another about vehicular cycling, only that those threads quickly go south, and any useful information is tossed aside in favor of bickering.
    I don't suppose there's a button that any of us could 'push' when viewing a pro/anti VC post (i.e., I love/hate bike lanes) that would move it over to a shadow/clone thread in the VC sub-forum?

  4. #29
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    My Bikes
    Road, Mtn, Tandem
    Posts
    760
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute
    Maybe the best way is to save the VC section for any thread that "deteriorates." If people play fair, and abide by the forum guidelines on "harassment" and "respect," the thread can stay in the main section. But if people on either side start throwing pro- or anti-VC attacks, then it gets moved here.
    That's an interesting idea. I don't know how much trouble it is to move a thread, but it seemed pretty painless from my vantage point.

  5. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reisterstown, MD
    Posts
    3,181
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ah yes. The "I don't agree with this subject so we will just sweep it under this (subforum) rug"

    Just illustrates my earlier point that A&S has fallen beyond hope.

    -D

  6. #31
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by derath
    Ah yes. The "I don't agree with this subject so we will just sweep it under this (subforum) rug"

    Just illustrates my earlier point that A&S has fallen beyond hope.

    -D
    No, you've missed the point. If you want to debate the pros and cons of VC, there is now a place for that. Or are you suggesting that it's not possible to discuss a subject in A&S without bringing up VC?

    And it's no trouble at all to move threads.

    [edit] We could just play king for a day. What do you propose as a solution? I guess that question is for all the critics out there.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    My Bikes
    Road, Mtn, Tandem
    Posts
    760
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do the respectfulness guidelines, such as:
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Guidelines
    We expect our members to show respect for others. Respecting their person, their views, their time and their opinions, and their belief systems ... even if you disagree with them.
    apply to the new VC sub-forum? I ask now because of some posts that just appeared in a new thread down there.

  8. #33
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,354
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute
    This will be the key. The last time some members tried to create VC-free threads (the short-lived "AC" movement), they started throwing rhetorical bombs at other members they didn't like, and then tried to hide behind a sympathetic mod when anyone responded.
    Do I have to cite the words I wrote, multiple times, that specifically stated that vehicular cycling practices were perfectly acceptable? Do I need to cite the times that I reminded your 'enemies' of that fact? Come on DC, stuff like this is a good example of what ignites discussions into flamefests. Come on dude, I figured you to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  9. #34
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Rosar
    Do the respectfulness guidelines, such as:
    apply to the new VC sub-forum? I ask now because of some posts that just appeared in a new thread down there.
    You guys are never going to get along, and the VC arguments will always be just that - arguments. So until ALL of you can figure out how to get along, we'll separate the wheat from the chaff.

    Does the VC forum need a disclaimer like P&R? Does everyone need to be told not to enter, unless they have thick skin?

  10. #35
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    18,938
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Rosar
    And if it is, is VC-contrary discussion also banned?
    What does the Constitution say about this? Which amendment covers the right to babble incessantly?

  11. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reisterstown, MD
    Posts
    3,181
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    No, you've missed the point. If you want to debate the pros and cons of VC, there is now a place for that. Or are you suggesting that it's not possible to discuss a subject in A&S without bringing up VC?

    And it's no trouble at all to move threads.

    [edit] We could just play king for a day. What do you propose as a solution? I guess that question is for all the critics out there.

    I guess it is more in how the mods implement this. My concern would be in the "sorta VC" areas.

    There are a number of facets to the VC debate it seems. I say it that way because I have never actually read anything VC related. That being said I have still been accused of being a VC advocate.

    Let's take the following example, because this thread has come up before. Person A posts a "how should I have handled this traffic situation" topic. Lively discussion ensues. Several known VC advocates chime in on "lane position" tactics etc. Now "I" use these same tactics, although I never knew them to be consistent with VC principles. So what happens now? something VC related has been uttered. Does it get deleted? The post moved?

    The underlying problem here isn't VC, at least IMO. It is a fundamental lack of respect between certain members on this forum. I respect your attempt to separate the players, I just don't think it will work.

    Sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense. I gotta go put my daughter to bed so I am typing quickly.

    -D

  12. #37
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    18,938
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian

    Does the VC forum need a disclaimer like P&R? Does everyone need to be told not to enter, unless they have thick skin?
    No, I just think a solution might be an announcement from the mods that the "respect card" can only be played so many times by individuals trying to shut down any and all criticism of their sacrosanct beliefs and dogma.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by derath
    The underlying problem here isn't VC, at least IMO. It is a fundamental lack of respect between certain members on this forum. I respect your attempt to separate the players, I just don't think it will work.
    You are correct. And it may not work. But I suspect that we will still see an improvement.

  14. #39
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay
    My Bikes
    Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
    Posts
    712
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    To be very honest, I hope to keep threads that are informative in A&S, and the rubbish will go into VC.
    This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."

  15. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    clipped in & pedaling
    My Bikes
    jamis dakar xlt 1.9, weyless sp
    Posts
    283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."
    Brian, send kalliergo the nuts & bolts about setting up a forum website -- it sounds to me like he's volunteering to moderate it!

    ( a bit irreverent, yes, but i'm serious.)

  16. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    south jersey
    Posts
    1,205
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    stay with the topics, don't take it personally, and list your bicycling oriented convictions! i thought this site was for bicycle advocacy and inclusion! move on!!!
    tomg (+vc, ride with the law on your side)

  17. #42
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."
    You'll just need some software and a host, and you're good to go. Of course, you could just stay here and not take things out of context. It's your choice.

  18. #43
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay
    My Bikes
    Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
    Posts
    712
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    You'll just need some software and a host, and you're good to go. Of course, you could just stay here and not take things out of context. It's your choice.
    In what way am I taking things out of context, Brian? Did you, or did you not, express your desire to direct "the rubbish" to the newly-created VC subforum?

    In what context could that possibly be seen as other than insulting and demeaning?

  19. #44
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    18,938
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."
    Try ChainGuard on Yahoo groups. You'll like it there. Some of your pals from BF can show you around.

  20. #45
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,354
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."
    Please grow up. With all due respect, do you know what a post like this reminds me of?

    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  21. #46
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    In what way am I taking things out of context, Brian? Did you, or did you not, express your desire to direct "the rubbish" to the newly-created VC subforum?

    In what context could that possibly be seen as other than insulting and demeaning?
    I'm hoping that a thread like that can be discussed without dragging the VC debate into it. To be very honest, I hope to keep threads that are informative in A&S, and the rubbish will go into VC. And that's not to say that I have an opinion one way or another about vehicular cycling, only that those threads quickly go south, and any useful information is tossed aside in favor of bickering.

    [edit] In other words, debate VC in the VC forums, and leave it out of the rest of the A&S discussions. It only leads to arguments.

  22. #47
    N_C
    N_C is offline
    Banned. N_C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Bannation, forever.
    Posts
    2,887
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    I'm very serious. Look at it from the perspective of a non-member who visits to the forums and is looking to research advocacy and safety issues. What do they see? A handful of members bickering, calling each other names, hijacking threads with VC arguments, and generally being disrespectful to each other's opinions.

    Joe and I discussed this, and he was more than happy to have me lock A&S for a few days. But that would not be a long term solution. So look for a change here soon.
    Ok, so? You obviously have not been a member here that long. It has been this way for a long, long time. And you're just now doing something about it? Too little, too late as far as that goes. It is just something we have all gotten used to. The un-written rule has always been if you don't like it, don't read it & don't post.
    Last edited by N_C; 03-17-07 at 09:27 PM.

  23. #48
    N_C
    N_C is offline
    Banned. N_C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Bannation, forever.
    Posts
    2,887
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I see the solution is a new VC forum. Good look with that. I doubt I'll post very often in there, if ever. I have a feeling others will be the same way.

    I do suggest you give a clear & concise definition of what a VC thread is. I have a feeling people will continue to post threads in the regular A&S forum, with out using the word VC, but it may inadvertenly or unintentionally refere to VC & that knowing the mods. & these new rules you're going to strictly enforce that person will get into trouble for it. Eventually people will be afraid to post here as a result. So you had better be damn clear as to what a VC thread is.

    More then likely to cover my ass I'm probably going to have to start all my new threads with the words, something to the effect: I am not sure if this is a VC thread or not. If it is, I apologize & throw myself on the mercy of the admin./mods. If this thread is thought to be about VC please move it to the VC forum & advise me on the matter, if you would.

    I think that may be a good idea, even if the thread is as far from VC as you can get.

  24. #49
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,354
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Ok, so? You obviously have not been a member here that long.


    Go easy on him Brian, sometimes you just gotta laugh!
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  25. #50
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom


    Go easy on him Brian, sometimes you just gotta laugh!
    Some members seem to exist here solely to stir the pot. I have gotten enough positive PMs, as well as thank you PMs, that I feel this was a good decision. If some members have a hard time getting their head around certain concepts, so be it.

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •