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  1. #76
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute
    If it's existence is a moot point, why discuss it at all?
    Because people have to deal with it's existence?
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  2. #77
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute
    If the mods want to move every such discussion to the VC forum, that's fine with me, but I suspect they will only do that if a thread degenerates into a standard set of bickering. Maybe the threat of having a thread moved will keep both sides more civil. If that happens, then the VC subforum will be serving a good purpose.
    That's pretty much it. I was accused of calling all VC threads rubbish earlier. You can have a VC discussion in the VC forum, but if a regular A&S thread turns into a completely off-topic VC debate, that's where it's going.

    Now, it's a beautiful spring day. For those that have nice weather, don't waste the day here arguing. Go for a ride. I will be in my backyard with a chainsaw and gardening tools.

  3. #78
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    That's pretty much it. I was accused of calling all VC threads rubbish earlier. You can have a VC discussion in the VC forum, but if a regular A&S thread turns into a completely off-topic VC debate, that's where it's going.

    Now, it's a beautiful spring day. For those that have nice weather, don't waste the day here arguing. Go for a ride. I will be in my backyard with a chainsaw and gardening tools.
    +1...Leaving for work early to get in some extra miles. See you out there
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

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  4. #79
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute
    Then that explains why you, bek, and sbhikes so frequently drag threads down to junior-high-level bickering, and why the mods had to create a separate subforum to deal with it.
    Wow, that didn't take long.

  5. #80
    bragi bragi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute
    Then that explains why you, bek, and sbhikes so frequently drag threads down to junior-high-level bickering, and why the mods had to create a separate subforum to deal with it.
    I think several of the preceding posts are indicative of precisely the kind of bickering that the mods are trying to prevent. I'm not blaming anyone in particular here, but I think if we all stick to debating ideas rather than indulging in personal accusations (i.e., ad hominum attacks), it would be less embarrassing for all, and we might actually learn something new in the process.
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

  6. #81
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    See the first line of post 50.
    What is this, leave a trail of bread crumbs until we are lead to where the answer is? I asked for a clear definition of what a VC thread is according to the existing or new guidelines. If you can't answer that, then just say so & ask one of the other mods. or Joe to do so.

    Better yet, never mind. I'll just shoot Joe an email asking him directly, since you can't seem to do so.

  7. #82
    N_C
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    Brian, an email has been sent to Joe since you seem incapable of clearly answering the questions as to what a VC thread is.

  8. #83
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    What is this, leave a trail of bread crumbs until we are lead to where the answer is? I asked for a clear definition of what a VC thread is according to the existing or new guidelines. If you can't answer that, then just say so & ask one of the other mods. or Joe to do so.

    Better yet, never mind. I'll just shoot Joe an email asking him directly, since you can't seem to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Brian, an email has been sent to Joe since you seem incapable of clearly answering the questions as to what a VC thread is.
    Does it make you feel good to be annoying? Post 26 clearly states "We're working on some guidelines." But you continue to press the issue, as you obviously either haven't taken the time to read what has been posted, or are not capable of comrehending that this is a work in progress. Joe has the good sense to spend the weekend outside, so don't expect a response any time soon. Do you think you're somehow going over my head by sending him an email? After what you posted on your blog, I don't see why you think he's your buddy. But he and I will meet during the week and discuss this. So you're stuck waiting.

  9. #84
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    Does it make you feel good to be annoying? Post 26 clearly states "We're working on some guidelines." But you continue to press the issue, as you obviously either haven't taken the time to read what has been posted, or are not capable of comrehending that this is a work in progress. Joe has the good sense to spend the weekend outside, so don't expect a response any time soon. Do you think you're somehow going over my head by sending him an email? After what you posted on your blog, I don't see why you think he's your buddy. But he and I will meet during the week and discuss this. So you're stuck waiting.
    Ooooh touchy. You should have had the guidelines set up before you created the sub forum. Should have had your "ducks in a row". Hind sight is 20/20 I guess. I have read what has been posted. I comprehend it just fine, but this has been done backwards. So what the hell do we do in the mean time? Post what we wish & hope for the best? I don't expect Joe or anyone else to be my buddy, blog or not. I just get better results if I go straight to the top. Learned that a long time ago, has nothing to do with going over anyone's head.

    Can you at least give us an update on what type of new or modified guidelines are being discussed or what you have agreed upon as of yet? Or are you that far with it yet?

  10. #85
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Ooooh touchy. You should have had the guidelines set up before you created the sub forum. Should have had your "ducks in a row". Hind sight is 20/20 I guess. I have read what has been posted. I comprehend it just fine, but this has been done backwards. So what the hell do we do in the mean time? Post what we wish & hope for the best? I don't expect Joe or anyone else to be my buddy, blog or not. I just get better results if I go straight to the top. Learned that a long time ago, has nothing to do with going over anyone's head.

    Can you at least give us an update on what type of new or modified guidelines are being discussed or what you have agreed upon as of yet? Or are you that far with it yet?
    Look, I have no idea what your personal issues with Brian and Joe are all about, but I would like to address your belief that someone should have had a more set plan before creating a subforum for VC topics.

    An internet forum is a dynamic, ever-changing thing. If you think the moderators, Brian, or Joe have some sort of supernatural ability to predict which subjects are going to be brought up and what people's responses to those subjects are going to be, you are sadly mistaken. I'm sure I can confidently speak for all the moderators in saying that we certainly wish we had such abilities. I can also assure you that no one who posts on this or any other forum sends us a monthly or quarterly schedule of which hot-button issues or contraversial topics they are planning to address, nor did we receive any advance notice that John Forester was going to join Bike Forums and post 92 times in a 5 day period.

    Responding to the conflagration that A&S became in such a short period of time in the way that Brian did is a form of Adaptive Management. It is used primarily in ecosystem management, but to a lesser and less structured extent, we use principles of Adaptive Management anytime we have to respond to an acute situation that involves unpredictible factors.

    Personally, I believe Brian did a great job, especially given the situation and the time frame. I am sorry to hear you don't agree. Whatever your opinion, I would like to point out to you that the more time Brian and Joe have to spend addressing your complaints and demands for regular updates on their plans, the less time they have to spend actually making said plan.

    That said, I am now going to get on my bike and ride. Perhaps you might consider doing the same.
    "Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."

  11. #86
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    I'll throw my hat in with Brian and Donna's statements. They've said it well, and if anyone really wishes me to expand on my own thoughts, feel free to PM me. I'm online far too often as it is.

  12. #87
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    When N_C has his own forum, I'm sure it will always run smoothly, and with minimal effort as well. As the admin here, I've got a million other things to do besides babysit one forum, or one member.

    Since everything must be repeated the benefit of that member, I will post this one more time.

    The moderators discussed closing A&S for a few days to give everyone some time to cool off, and perhaps rediscover the outdoors. I brought this up with Joe on Thursday, and he was fine with the idea. But since that was only a short term solution, we had a discussion about what might be better in the long run. It was decided that we would make the VC subforum for A&S.

    We could have taken more time to write some guidelines, but too many members went into a panic over the idea of A&S being closed, even if only for 48 hours, so I went ahead and created the new forum. I also think Joe isn't too big on having lots of published rules, as we would like to have more of a hands-off approach to moderation. But I can see that we will need to spell out in exacting detail what is considered VC, and what is not. Or maybe we just won't, and you'll have to work it out for yourself.

  13. #88
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnamb
    Look, I have no idea what your personal issues with Brian and Joe are all about, but I would like to address your belief that someone should have had a more set plan before creating a subforum for VC topics.

    An internet forum is a dynamic, ever-changing thing. If you think the moderators, Brian, or Joe have some sort of supernatural ability to predict which subjects are going to be brought up and what people's responses to those subjects are going to be, you are sadly mistaken. I'm sure I can confidently speak for all the moderators in saying that we certainly wish we had such abilities. I can also assure you that no one who posts on this or any other forum sends us a monthly or quarterly schedule of which hot-button issues or contraversial topics they are planning to address, nor did we receive any advance notice that John Forester was going to join Bike Forums and post 92 times in a 5 day period.

    Responding to the conflagration that A&S became in such a short period of time in the way that Brian did is a form of Adaptive Management. It is used primarily in ecosystem management, but to a lesser and less structured extent, we use principles of Adaptive Management anytime we have to respond to an acute situation that involves unpredictible factors.

    Personally, I believe Brian did a great job, especially given the situation and the time frame. I am sorry to hear you don't agree. Whatever your opinion, I would like to point out to you that the more time Brian and Joe have to spend addressing your complaints and demands for regular updates on their plans, the less time they have to spend actually making said plan.

    That said, I am now going to get on my bike and ride. Perhaps you might consider doing the same.

  14. #89
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k
    I'll throw my hat in with Brian and Donna's statements. They've said it well, and if anyone really wishes me to expand on my own thoughts, feel free to PM me. I'm online far too often as it is.

  15. #90
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian
    When N_C has his own forum, I'm sure it will always run smoothly, and with minimal effort as well. As the admin here, I've got a million other things to do besides babysit one forum, or one member.

    Since everything must be repeated the benefit of that member, I will post this one more time.


  16. #91
    N_C
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    BTW, what are the chances of updating the icons in this forum room & others that are available in the VC sub-forum. Some of those are kind of cool. Or can we just open up that forum in another browser window & copy & paste them into any thread on any forum?

  17. #92
    N_C
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    Oh one more thing. What if someone does not read this thread? And they post a VC thread in the regular A&S forum? Or will it be a forum guideline for all new & present members to read this, or else?

  18. #93
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Oh one more thing.
    Give it a rest.

  19. #94
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Give it a rest.
    If you can't tell already I'm in an ornry mood today. I just think it is a complete waste of time & forum web space to create a sub-forum because things may have gotten out of hand. But hey it's their time & space to waste.

  20. #95
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Oh one more thing. What if someone does not read this thread? And they post a VC thread in the regular A&S forum? Or will it be a forum guideline for all new & present members to read this, or else?
    It'll get moved, N_C....simple enough!
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


    . “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

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  21. #96
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    I think it's important for everyone to differentiate between discussion and never-ending one-sided monologues designed to stifle discussion and "win" every argument by attrition.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this analysis. There is a vague but qualitative level of reasoned discussion, and there there is a poster (naming no names!) that really abuses the forum with their wanton and pedantic failure to respect other points of view in A&S.

    If members said their piece, and maybe rebutted with a couple of refinements, the A&S forum could be capable of reasoned debate of ANY Topic, including the so called 'vehicular cycling', but a certain poster BEATS SELECT THREADS INTO SUBMISSION with the overlay of their personal point of view.

    A certain poster really stunts and ******* the Advocacy and Safety potential of this forum.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 03-18-07 at 07:57 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #97
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    If you can't tell already I'm in an ornry mood today. I just think it is a complete waste of time & forum web space to create a sub-forum because things may have gotten out of hand. But hey it's their time & space to waste.
    Dude, chill. You're going off the deep end here.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  23. #98
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Dude, chill. You're going off the deep end here.
    Not yet, just bouncing up & down on the high dive board. Trying to figure out if I want to dive head first, jump feet first, belly flop, or just turn around & climb back down off the board.

  24. #99
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Not yet, just bouncing up & down on the high dive board. Trying to figure out if I want to dive head first, jump feet first, belly flop, or just turn around & climb back down off the board.
    As long as you realize that there might not be any water in the pool you're fixin to jump into.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  25. #100
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    As long as you realize that there might not be any water in the pool you're fixin to jump into.
    I won't leave the dive end of the board unless there is. If there isn't or I change my mind even if there is water, I will stop bouncing, turn around walk to the ladder end of the board & climb off.

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