Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast
Results 151 to 175 of 217
  1. #151
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    In fact, it is because VC is "all about operating a bike in a vehicular manner...", and bike lanes are not, that that part of the controversy exists.
    I question that premise. Look at any highway in California. The left lane is almost always an HOV lane. With some exceptions for ZEV and ULEV vehicles, single-occupancy vehicles are not permitted to operate in those lanes. And yet nobody would claim that vehicles excluded from the HOV lanes are not "vehicles," or are not being operated "vehicularly."
    Yes, HOV lanes are segregationary. But HOV lanes do not encourage HOV users or anyone else to violate the destination positioning principle, or any other basic principle of vehicular behavior. That's why no one claims vehicles in HOV lanes are not being operated vehicularly.

    But bike lanes are not contrary to vehicular behavior because they are segregationary. In general, the fundamental idea of bike lanes - that vehicle type, and not vehicle-independent factors like speed, destination, special function (public bus, taxi) and size should determine where a given vehicle is operated is contrary to the basic rules of vehicular behavior. More specifically, bike lanes are contrary to vehicular behavior because they encourage not only bike lane users to violate basic principles of vehicular traffic behavior like destination and speed positioning, but they discourage non-bike lane users to violate them too. Do I really need to cite all the examples? We've been over this thousands of times. At least at any intersection or junction without a dedicated right turn lane, a bike lane necessarily guides through cyclists to go straight from positions that are to the right of where the bike lane stripe guides right turning motorists to drive, in violation of the destination positioning principle. When motor traffic slows, bike lanes encourage cyclists to pass motorists on the right (violating speed positioning).

    That's why VC advocates point out that bike lanes inhibit cyclists from thinking, feeling and operating vehicularly, and why the VC opposition to bike lanes is also "all about operating a bike in a vehicular manner..."

    P.S.
    I hereby assert that John Forester is a human, just to emphasize that we're not fighting about whether JF is a god or demon.

  2. #152
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by donnamb View Post
    I merged it with Brian's original thread on the topic. The decision stands, as does the reasons behind it.
    If you were trying to kill a discussion, congratulations, you succeeded.

  3. #153
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Wynnum, Australia
    My Bikes
    1998 Cannondale F700
    Posts
    3,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    If you were trying to kill a discussion, congratulations, you succeeded.
    Don't worry, Serge. I'm sure you'll find plenty of other opportunities to repeat your bike-lane drivel again, and again, and again.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    If you were trying to kill a discussion, congratulations, you succeeded.
    If only it was always that easy.

  5. #155
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    That's an absurd and totally unsubstantiated claim.

    Whatever VC is, it's definitely not a cult of personality.
    To me one of the sadist statements made by JF was that there are only 3-4 true VC on the forum. I'm sorry but there is an aspect/group that is out to make VC a cult of personality.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  6. #156
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    To me one of the sadist statements made by JF was that there are only 3-4 true VC on the forum. I'm sorry but there is an aspect/group that is out to make VC a cult of personality.
    Perhaps you're using "cult of personality" differently than what I understand it to mean.
    To me, a cult of personality is a group of people who are drawn by a leader's personality, rather than by ideas, or the ideas a leader happens to espouse.

    For example, there it has been argued that much of the Obama campaign can be characterized as a cult of personality because his campaign is all about him, and very little about substance. Recently Chris Matthews had an Obama supporter/rep on Hardball who could not name a single Obama achievement.

    In contrast, the Ron Paul campaign has been characterized as a cult of ideas.

    To me, the whole VC advocacy thing seems to be much more about ideas. No offense to JF, but, in fact, I don't know of a single VC advocate who is drawn to Forester himself due to Forester's personality or charisma. Most VC advocates have not even met him in person.

  7. #157
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Perhaps you're using "cult of personality" differently than what I understand it to mean.
    The cult of personality is most evident on the ChainGuard forum and with Forester only accepting 3-4 of us here. There are a large number of VCers who are not part of this cult of personality but that does not mean that a VC cult of personality does not exist.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  8. #158
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    The cult of personality is most evident on the ChainGuard forum and with Forester only accepting 3-4 of us here. There are a large number of VCers who are not part of this cult of personality but that does not mean that a VC cult of personality does not exist.
    Can you elaborate on this at all? After all, a large number of VCers who are not part of a cult of personality does not mean that a VC cult of personality does exist either.

    Personality in cult of personality refers to the personality of the alleged leader of an alleged cult.

    It's not what Jim Jones did that made Jonestown a cult of personality; it's what his followers did that made it that (including follow him to Guana and drink the Koolaid).

    It's not what Obama does that makes the Obama campaign a cult of personality, it's that many of his followers can't articulate a coherent reason he would make a good president.

    So what is it on ChainGuard that is evidence of a cult of personality there?
    How is Forester saying that he thinks only 3 or 4 of the regulars on this forum seem to be vehicular cyclists evidence of a cult of personality?
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-03-08 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #159
    Immoderator KrisPistofferson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    POS Tennessee
    My Bikes
    Gary Fisher Simple City 8, Litespeed Obed
    Posts
    7,596
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Can you elaborate on this at all? After all, a large number of VCers who are not part of a cult of personality does not mean that a VC cult of personality does exist either.

    Personality in cult of personality refers to the personality of the alleged leader of an alleged cult.

    It's not what Jim Jones did that made Jonestown a cult of personality; it's what his followers did that made it that (including follow him to Guana and drink the Koolaid).
    John Forester is like Joseph Smith, but you are the Brigham Young of VC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    It's not what Obama does that makes the Obama campaign a cult of personality, it's that many of his followers can't articulate a coherent reason he would make a good president.
    I'm voting for him because he's a fellow Leo like me, silly!

    Lest you feel the need to start getting too political, remember you have been the main apologist for a candidate who is anti-Choice, is a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution and is a racist, named Ron Paul, who's another textbook example of CoP.
    This is what you do Head, apparently hard-wired into you, whether it's Hitchens, Paul or Forester.

    But I'm sure you're oblivious to this.

    Besides, it seems like A&S should be for people learning to negotiate traffic, not people who have been cycling for years and/or people who no longer cycle arguing oddball hypothetical minutiae day in and day out. Part of the reason I never come here is that I know how to ride alongside cars, the other reason is some of the dumbass flaming that gets started by the VC acolytes. I go to PnR all the time, but I consider A&S to be mentally poisonous, so go figure.

    This subforum should be helping out new cyclists, not continuing to be such a shambling abomination as it is now.

  10. #160
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    John Forester is like Joseph Smith, but you are the Brigham Young of VC.
    Very funny. But you saying so doesn't make it a good analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    I'm voting for him because he's a fellow Leo like me, silly!
    Sure, run with the joke to avoid the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    Lest you feel the need to start getting too political, remember you have been the main apologist for a candidate who is anti-Choice, is a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution and is a racist, named Ron Paul, who's another textbook example of CoP.
    This is what you do Head, apparently hard-wired into you, whether it's Hitchens, Paul or Forester.
    I'm an apologist for Paul? I'm the one who first raised concerns about the implications (best case he's incompetent) of the new republic article. Apparently you pay as little attention at P&R as you do here.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    But I'm sure you're oblivious to this.
    Well, you're the one who creates such a strong association with personalities (whether for or against), not me. If my citing the writings of the most prominent proponents of the ideas that I favor (Dawkins and Rand as well as Hitchens in the area of atheism/religion; Franklin and Hurst as well as Forester in the area of traffic cycling; von Mises, Hayek, Rand etc. as well as Ron Paul in the area of politics/economics) is somehow a criticism, please explain how it's about their personalities and not their ideas. You know, it's because I favor Paul's ideas to end the war, stop intervening in foreign affairs, drastically reduce the size of the federal government, get rid of the Federal Reserve (return to sound money), FCC, DofEd, etc., despite the possibility that he might be too accepting of racism (arguably making him a racist) that indicates my support for him is about ideas, and not personality.

    The whole Clinton/Obama thing is all about personality. You can split a few hairs on their health care ideas, criticize Hillary for trying to be too nuanced and trust Bush regarding the Iraq War vote, and point out the perception benefits, internationally as well as domestically, with having a black president (but would you point that out if Powell or Rice was running?), but that's about it. The bulk of Obama support can basically be characterized by "just listen to his voice" and "I hate her". If that's not a cult of personality, I don't know what is.

    On the other hand, when Fox decided not to invite Ron Paul to one of the debates, the Ron Paul supporters who started arguing for filing complaints with the FCC were reminded to not compromise principles, not even to defend Ron Paul.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    Besides, it seems like A&S should be for people learning to negotiate traffic, not people who have been cycling for years and/or people who no longer cycle arguing oddball hypothetical minutiae day in and day out. Part of the reason I never come here is that I know how to ride alongside cars, the other reason is some of the dumbass flaming that gets started by the VC acolytes. I go to PnR all the time, but I consider A&S to be mentally poisonous, so go figure.

    This subforum should be helping out new cyclists, not continuing to be such a shambling abomination as it is now.
    The safety aspect is arguably more for newbies, but there are subtle and complex safety issues that are appropriate for experienced cyclists to discuss. And we do. Advocacy, and the crossover to safety (do bike lanes make cycling safer?) are not really for newbies at all.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-03-08 at 03:28 PM.

  11. #161
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,913
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    This subforum should be helping out new cyclists, not continuing to be such a shambling abomination as it is now.
    I think some if not many of us, including me, make an effort to help new cyclists with practical advice that most would agree with in our first responses. Then someone later will nitpick or try using the honest advice given in an effort to pigeon hole someone 'beliefs' or find a contradiction, a rare exception, etc. in effort to discredit them or just argue because they are the 'enemy'

  12. #162
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    So what is it on ChainGuard that is evidence of a cult of personality there?
    How is Forester saying that he thinks only 3 or 4 of the regulars on this forum seem to be vehicular cyclists evidence of a cult of personality?
    Well I looked at Wikipedia for some sort of criteria for to use for "cult of personality" and that was useless so I looked up cult:
    Some anthropologists and sociologists studying cults have argued that no one has yet been able to define “cult” in a way that enables the term to identify only groups that have been identified as problematic.
    So we are sort of left to our own definitions so with any cult there are the ideas that make the cult distinctive and their is a cult leader who can make the cult distinctive through pontification of ideas. So it is a bit problematic to say what ideas exist separate of JF and which are due to JF being a charismatic leader. I think this is best done by looking at the main creed and see what is pontificated that does not exactly fit well within the main creed and by looking at other cults and drawing parallels.

    One ideal that comes to mind is JF's pro-motoring stance and his disdain for what he calls "anti-motoring." His point on how that has anything to do with cyclists' safety or rights is lost on many except those in the cult of personality.

    I'll interject here that while I will numerate several other thoughts they are not meant to be taken as a whole to qualify as a cult of personality as the cult can be quite nebulous and the attraction or mimicking of a exotic idea can have sub groups and/or overlapping groups.

    On mimicking, there is something I find terribly off by a quick response of an insult or the accusation the lack of education to the original poster by JF and those of the cult of personality (like on ChainGurad.) There are many who are far more educated the JF and they don't hold his beliefs but he and his followers use this insult/not as educated as a short circuit to slam dunk arguments rather then use logic. (Sort of like; I am smarter then you but I can't explain why you are wrong.)

    Another thing I find weird in cults is the the quick litmus test to determine if you are the enemy; you're not against bike lanes? Your going to burn in Hell. This point is not about pro/anti-bike lanes but that cults feel that there can only be one absolute truth and few are the faithful and that is stressed over the logic of the validity of their belief.

    If you believe this you will: live forever/not die/be free from all illnesses/snake bites will not harm you/motorists will wave and give you the thumbs up when you take the lane and block their way. If you have seen the Tom Cruse religious commercial "When you drive past an accident, it’s not like anyone else; as you drive past, you know you have to do something about it, because you know you’re the only one that can really help…" Let's assume for now what Tom knows is really powerful but be real, if an an accident results in just cuts and bruises there are lots of people that can help, at least adequately. In the same way VC is a powerful tool but some take it over the top.

    I also find it weird that JF choose to use a model for delivering his "enlightenment" that is very similar to the Scientology model. Maybe this is the best way to make sure people really know their stuff and are able to pass it forward or maybe there is the lack of trust that others will mess it up if their are not controls in place to keep the faith pure.

    In summary in this post I am not trying to debate or make a point of the right or wrong of JF's beliefs but point out that I do have concerns on how those points are delivered. JF's ideas can be right or mostly right but carried to an extreme and depending on how they are delivered the result can be something very cult like.

    PS. Sorry for the delay in responding but BF indexes sometimes goof up and I was not notified of additional responses on this thread.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  13. #163
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    Well I looked at Wikipedia for some sort of criteria for to use for "cult of personality" and that was useless so I looked up cult:


    So we are sort of left to our own definitions so with any cult there are the ideas that make the cult distinctive and their is a cult leader who can make the cult distinctive through pontification of ideas. So it is a bit problematic to say what ideas exist separate of JF and which are due to JF being a charismatic leader. I think this is best done by looking at the main creed and see what is pontificated that does not exactly fit well within the main creed and by looking at other cults and drawing parallels.

    One ideal that comes to mind is JF's pro-motoring stance and his disdain for what he calls "anti-motoring." His point on how that has anything to do with cyclists' safety or rights is lost on many except those in the cult of personality.

    I'll interject here that while I will numerate several other thoughts they are not meant to be taken as a whole to qualify as a cult of personality as the cult can be quite nebulous and the attraction or mimicking of a exotic idea can have sub groups and/or overlapping groups.

    On mimicking, there is something I find terribly off by a quick response of an insult or the accusation the lack of education to the original poster by JF and those of the cult of personality (like on ChainGurad.) There are many who are far more educated the JF and they don't hold his beliefs but he and his followers use this insult/not as educated as a short circuit to slam dunk arguments rather then use logic. (Sort of like; I am smarter then you but I can't explain why you are wrong.)

    Another thing I find weird in cults is the the quick litmus test to determine if you are the enemy; you're not against bike lanes? Your going to burn in Hell. This point is not about pro/anti-bike lanes but that cults feel that there can only be one absolute truth and few are the faithful and that is stressed over the logic of the validity of their belief.

    If you believe this you will: live forever/not die/be free from all illnesses/snake bites will not harm you/motorists will wave and give you the thumbs up when you take the lane and block their way. If you have seen the Tom Cruse religious commercial "When you drive past an accident, it’s not like anyone else; as you drive past, you know you have to do something about it, because you know you’re the only one that can really help…" Let's assume for now what Tom knows is really powerful but be real, if an an accident results in just cuts and bruises there are lots of people that can help, at least adequately. In the same way VC is a powerful tool but some take it over the top.

    I also find it weird that JF choose to use a model for delivering his "enlightenment" that is very similar to the Scientology model. Maybe this is the best way to make sure people really know their stuff and are able to pass it forward or maybe there is the lack of trust that others will mess it up if their are not controls in place to keep the faith pure.

    In summary in this post I am not trying to debate or make a point of the right or wrong of JF's beliefs but point out that I do have concerns on how those points are delivered. JF's ideas can be right or mostly right but carried to an extreme and depending on how they are delivered the result can be something very cult like.

    PS. Sorry for the delay in responding but BF indexes sometimes goof up and I was not notified of additional responses on this thread.
    Well, by such a broad non-definition, any time anyone proposes change that is revolutionary and/or controversial in some manner, and publishes materials about these ideas that others find convincing, cult-like characteristics are probably inevitable. And arguments to discount these ideas based on the inevitable cult-like characteristics are probably inevitable too. But such arguments are not very sound.

    It's like saying Richard Dawkin's ideas are probably wrong because there is a richarddawkins.net website with a forum on which his fans commune in a cult-like manner.

    If it's true that only VC advocates can understand the relevance of JF's points about anti-motoring to cycling advocacy and safety, I don't know how to help you. I can only say that "it goes to motive", and clearly plays a role to varying degrees in the thoughts and beliefs of many bicycling advocates. What also varies is to what extent the anti-motoring sentiments cloud and conflict with pure pro-bicycling sentiments, but you can find many examples every day on this forum where the higher priority is obviously anti-motorist, and not pro-cyclist. I suppose it's true that many bicycling advocates see no conflict between the two, and to them they are one and the same. Anything that is anti-motoring is pro-bicycling and vice-versa. But Forester has pointed out that there is conflict in certain contexts, and that the true cycling advocates are those that side with the pro-cycling side rather than the anti-motoring side in these situations, that's all.

    But I too have concerns with how many of the VC points are delivered, including concerns with how I deliver them myself. Something I'm constantly working on...

  14. #164
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Well, by such a broad non-definition, any time anyone proposes change that is revolutionary and/or controversial in some manner, and publishes materials about these ideas that others find convincing, cult-like characteristics are probably inevitable. And arguments to discount these ideas based on the inevitable cult-like characteristics are probably inevitable too. But such arguments are not very sound.
    I'll agree that such things are hard to quantify but not necessarily unsound. Cold fusion I think has turned cult like while the electric car I think has remained mostly outside of cultish characteristics. Does this have to do with the predicted possibility of such technology taking off? I think the possibility of an idea taking off has more of a bearing then the revolutionary and/or controversial nature of an idea. Acceptance and the number of cyclists that an ideology will promote is very much a part of the VC debate. Some how hanging on to something that seems improbable or low numbers is seen as cultish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    It's like saying Richard Dawkin's ideas are probably wrong because there is a richarddawkins.net website with a forum on which his fans commune in a cult-like manner.
    Being a cult or a cult of personality does not necessarily imply wrong. Mao, while not perfect did manage a great deal of good for his country. I think something like string theory has a cult like commune aspect to it, it does not mean it is wrong, it just means don't expect the latest developments in string theory to be main stream conversation material any time soon. For me part of being a cult is the inhibiting of being mainstream. Something can be non-mainstream and not a cult, but when certain methodologies are applied to inhibit a idea from being mainstreamed thats where the problems come in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    If it's true that only VC advocates can understand the relevance of JF's points about anti-motoring to cycling advocacy and safety, I don't know how to help you.
    Again it's not the point that is right or wrong that I am debating it is the method of delivery, for example a somewhat condensed conversation:

    Me: Hi! I'm cycling advocate and I am car free.
    Cult of personality: You anti-motoring bike lane advocates are all the same, you are sending cycling into the dark ages with your superstitions about rear-end collisions and the promotion of childish bike riding.
    Me: WTF is your problem??? How does my transportation mode of choice dictate all that? In order to be a "true" cycling advocate one must drive a car a lot and a ride a bike very little?

    There is something non-congruent in (some of) the deliveries. There is the quick litmus test to arrive to the conclusion that you are one of the non-believers and rather then try and win them over, berate them for all their "evil" doings and make them repent of their sins. I see a cult of personality more adapt at "proving" an unbeliever then proving their belief system. There is also some sort of "hate" undercurrent or blaming someone else for problems that is also present in this type of cult. If you try and change something and you fail, that's your failing not someone else's fault but a cult of personality will blame someone else for their failing. "It is the bike lane advocates fault for our current conditions."


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    ... and that the true cycling advocates are those that side with the pro-cycling side rather than the anti-motoring side in these situations, that's all.
    And only the true believers will be saved. Enough said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    But I too have concerns with how many of the VC points are delivered, including concerns with how I deliver them myself. Something I'm constantly working on...
    I don't always agree with you but you are a good egg.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  15. #165
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Human Car - now I think I understand your point. Right or wrong, some of the VC message is conveyed in a manner that makes VC seem cult-like, and that hinders effective conveyance of the message. I can agree with that.

  16. #166
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Human Car - now I think I understand your point. Right or wrong, some of the VC message is conveyed in a manner that makes VC seem cult-like, and that hinders effective conveyance of the message. I can agree with that.
    Dang, and I paid for a half hour argument.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  17. #167
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No, you didn't.

  18. #168
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Perhaps you're using "cult of personality" differently than what I understand it to mean.
    To me, a cult of personality is a group of people who are drawn by a leader's personality, rather than by ideas, or the ideas a leader happens to espouse.

    For example, there it has been argued that much of the Obama campaign can be characterized as a cult of personality because his campaign is all about him, and very little about substance. Recently Chris Matthews had an Obama supporter/rep on Hardball who could not name a single Obama achievement.

    In contrast, the Ron Paul campaign has been characterized as a cult of ideas.

    To me, the whole VC advocacy thing seems to be much more about ideas. No offense to JF, but, in fact, I don't know of a single VC advocate who is drawn to Forester himself due to Forester's personality or charisma. Most VC advocates have not even met him in person.
    And they never fawn over his every word, either...

  19. #169
    Ride the Road Daily Commute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    My Bikes
    Surly Cross-Check; hard tail MTB
    Posts
    4,059
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    I think some if not many of us, including me, make an effort to help new cyclists with practical advice that most would agree with in our first responses. Then someone later will nitpick or try using the honest advice given in an effort to pigeon hole someone 'beliefs' or find a contradiction, a rare exception, etc. in effort to discredit them or just argue because they are the 'enemy'
    I stepped away for a few months, and the arguments in the subforum are still the same endless loop. And to those who complain about HH, it takes two sides to keep the endless loop endless, especially when some snipe at any thought even mildly critical of any bike lane, and then complain about endless sniping. Geez. Grow up and read your own posts.

    In the end, the VC subforum seems to have worked. VC ideas (and anti-VC ideas and non-VC ideas) are clearly still welcome in the main A&S forum, but arguments have to move to the subforum when they hit that endless loop.

    Nice work mods!

  20. #170
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Between the mountains and the lake.
    My Bikes
    8 bikes - one for each day of the week!
    Posts
    16,745
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Commute View Post
    In the end, the VC subforum seems to have worked. VC ideas (and anti-VC ideas and non-VC ideas) are clearly still welcome in the main A&S forum, but arguments have to move to the subforum when they hit that endless loop.

    Nice work mods!
    I won't take any credit, as I'm sure the idea came from members.

  21. #171
    Ride the Road Daily Commute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    My Bikes
    Surly Cross-Check; hard tail MTB
    Posts
    4,059
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I won't take any credit, as I'm sure the idea came from members.
    The idea was OK, but implementation was key. Based on your posts, it's clear which side of the VC debate you and donnamb are on, but VC ideas flow freely in the main A&S section. Only The Endless Loop gets moved to the subforum doghouse. That helps keep all sides on their best behavior in A&S, and lets people vent in the subforum.

  22. #172
    chicharron
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    A&S has turned into the new P&R, and the moderation queue is being overrun by complaints. If you cannot refrain from personal attacks, petty arguments, and constant bickering over cycling technique, IT WILL BE CLOSED.

    Yes, if you cannot respect each other, the entire A&S forum will be shut down so you can all go out for some fresh air and cool off a bit.

    Thank you for your cooperation.
    whoa!!
    I had not been to Bike Forums in quite some time. Have things deteriated that bad since I have been gone? Have you all been misbehaving?


    If you think this is bad, you should visit the London Guardian Talk Boards. Now, that gets really nasty!

  23. #173
    CrossFixed
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    My Bikes
    REDLINE MonoCog SS, Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, IRO custom fixie
    Posts
    74
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What are you guys arguing about? Cyclists riding and behaving like cars on the road? Here in Bend, cyclists (not cruiser bike riders or teens on BMX's) ride in the road and behave like cars. It seems to be working pretty well so long as they remain alert, wear proper cycling attire (bright colors, lights, etc. - Not spandex), wear their helmets, and don't take driver courtesy for granted. Roundabouts and turn lanes seriously confuse bike lane operations, and most cyclists I have spoken with prefer to be in front of the car where they remain highly visible than off on the passenger side barely getting noticed. I tend to agree with them, so long as my speed isn't hindering motorists from driving at safe and reasonable speeds.

    We benefit in Bend, as cyclists, from having no freeway and very little highway traffic at all due to our through-town-traffic accomodating parkway. This helps greatly with keeping us from having to worry about HOV lanes and issues with freeway riding, highway traffic, on and off-ramp issues, etc. However, Bend is also a road riding mecca, and many local cyclists spend more time riding centuries than commuting to and from work or the bank or market. So our perception of VC is a bit skewed.

    Those are my two cents on the concept of Vehicular Cycling. Hope everyone remembers that these forums work best when they inform, educate and share.

  24. #174
    Newbie Tydayzesepend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sierra Leone
    Posts
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    3/15/2007 Please read before posting in any A thread

    Dear Members,

    Please only post links to lab home pages and other web sites that provide useful information such as methods, protocols, tools, etc.

    Any ad will be deleted

  25. #175
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,731
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tydayzesepend View Post
    Dear Members,
    What? Someone self-appoint themselves to moderator?

    -Kurt

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •