randya

Here's a snippet from the BikePortland post:

The bus driver also discusses passing distances and other issues here, plus there are some good comments from local cyclists on the blog.

I should point out that Hawthorne Boulevard is a designated bike route in the city's master plan, and the current lane configuration of two 9.5' lanes in each direction with parallel parking and no left turn lanes is a substandard design that the local business community fought to keep in a recent planning effort. The boulevard is currrently signed 'Narrow Lanes Bikes in Lane' (IMO not as good as the SF signage 'Change Lanes to Pass') and is a candidate for sharrows markings. Busses also run on the boulevard every 5 ot 15 minutes. From 12th to 27th is a hill climb in the eastbound direction, so bikes are going pretty slow, but due to the lane configuration, taking the lane is the only real choice for cyclists (unless the lane configuration is changed to one lane in each direction, a center left turn lane and a climbing lane for eastbound cyclists).

Daily Commute

So someone in Portland believes that bike facilities should result in bans on the right of cyclists to use the road. Who'd of thunk it? And the Bikeportland writer thinks that it's a good thing that the bus driver only supports a bike ban on road use when there are nearby bike faciltities?

On the other hand, the article shows the importance of riding safely around busses, and of making specific complaints about dangerous driver behavior. Given the strenghth of the union, you have to complain and give specific facts.

rando

I liked the one comment about the pull-in parking being better for cyclists than parallel parking and also making more space for pedestrians.

Keith99

Speaking only as a driver of a car. If the bus driver is against bikes then bikes must be OK. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Busses regularly pull out in front of me without looking or even after seeing me. If bike bother them because they have to actually pay attention I say it is a good thing for drivers, perhaps they will at least pay enough attention to see the SUVs.

joejack951

How busy is this road (vehicles per hour)? Sounds like an ideal road for cycling with two lanes in each direction (motorists have a much easier time passing). Getting rid of one traffic lane in each direction would greatly slow traffic in the absence of cyclist traffic (my beef with "road diets").

I didn't read the blog but are cyclist delays causing busses to be late? Or is this just the typical motorist whining about having to slow down for a cyclist?

randya

The latter. The busses are too large to fit in the 9.5' lanes so they take up both lanes. The busses are both held up by cars in either lane when they are rolling and block at least one lane when they make a stop. Except for the uphill portion of the route (eastbound from SE 12th to SE 28) an average or above cyclist can generally keep up with traffic reasonably well, especially when it's congested. The posted speed limit is 30mph, reduced to 25 mph in the central business district.

The average daily vehicle count on this arterial is 20,000 VPD.

noisebeam

That is very light for a two lane in each direction arterial. What is the problem again?
Al

Bekologist

I rode down to Portland last friday and spent four days cycling in Portland. I was staying right on Hawthorne at 30th.

The bus driver is whining and complaing if he's got a beef with cyclists on Hawthorne. It's NOT an 'ideal' road for bicyclists, joejack, because of the impatient drivers and asshat bus drivers. very easy for the assertive cyclist to simply take the lane. I saw a few sidewalk cyclists riding up Hawthorne, a clear sign not all riders are comfortable on it.

I bet there's a lot of riders that prefer less travelled streets just to either side of Hawthorne. I certainly saw more bike traffic on Salmon and Harrison, parallel streets to Hawthorne.

I would postulate that not every cyclist enjoys streets like Hawthorne. Portland recognizes that, as should any city, and develop and encourage alternate routes for the expediency of cyclists, kids, families, slower paced, utility riders, all the while not restricting cyclists from roads like Hawthorne, a pretty easy road to ride nonetheless.

Certainly easy to negotiate for cyclists, but there are much nicer routes up and down that parallel Hawthorne that are even more accomodating for bikes.

right now Portland is doing a lot of construction up and down Hawthorne, orange cones and the whatnot, forcing bikes to take the one remaining lane on Hawthorne. maybe this is the cause of some of the bus driver's frustration.

Daily commute, I think it's incredibly unlikely Portland is going to even consider 'banning bikes' on a road like Hawthorne. and not all cyclists are comfortable on roads like Hawthorne. what's a city to do?

I think the anwser is to build in bike infrastructure that encourages cycling. the anwser is NOT to force bicyclists to ride conditions they are uncomfortable with, or leave roads that move the less assertive cyclists onto the sidewalks.

randya

IMO, primarily substandard 9.5' lane widths, the presence of parallel parking the entire length, restrictions on left turns at arterial crossings, and a 16 block uphill section where bicyclist speeds are less than 10 mph.

randya

The problem is now becoming overcrowding on the parallel neighborhood parallel routes, resulting in complaints from neighbors about the bicyclists in their neighborhood, resulting in a lot of police activity targetted at bicyclists.

noisebeam

I understand, I just do see how these things lead to any real 'conflict' given the low traffic volume. Sure a wait here and there. I regularly ride on 5 lane arterials (one shared center turn lane) with no onstreet parking with 48k vehicle/day with busses stopping and also 9-10' lanes. Sure I hold up some drivers, but all seem to be able to get around me if they try. The turn lane and lack of on street parking help flow, but even at 48k, traffic moves 40-45mph between lights near rush hour.

Saying 'whats the prob?' was not meant to be doubting you, just suggesting that the complaining by motorists sounds more like whining.

Al

randya

Don't forget that most of those 20,000 trips are concentrated into a few peak hours. Traffic volumes are pretty low the other 18 hours of the day.

noisebeam

I've often seen 2-3x average used for peak.
Here are hourly counts for the road I was talking about.

slowandsteady

So you think the cyclists don't have to follow the laws? They were ticketed for blowing through stop signs. What is wrong with that?

randya

see post # 120 on the BikePortland thread

slowandsteady

The comments that follow the article you posted or some other thread? I don't see another thread and the article only has 47 comments. Do you have a link?

randya

police activity targetted at bicyclists
129 comments and counting

slowandsteady

Look, I totally get that they should probably change the signage to reflect the kind of riding done. I also totally get the whole busy body neighbor thing. And the bus drivers need to get over it.

Heck I have an annoying neighbor who tries to get me fined or taken to court for the dumbest things. Fortunately none of them are actually illegal. For example, last year I was sent a citation for trespassing chickens. There is no such law. The judge actually called me at home to applogize that the citation was sent. He was also laughing at the time. This is the same neighbor that dumps dog feces on my property. So, like I said, I get the whole overzealous(and possibly insane) neighbor thing. Some people have nothing better to do than try to find other people who are doing things that annoy them.

I do agree that the police probably have better things to do than ticket cyclists. But, they are violating the law and until the law changes they will keep getting ticketed. Right now it is like shooting fish in a barrel for the police.

If enough letters were sent and enough people went to the council meetings, you would get the signage changed. It doesn't matter that the law is stupid. You aren't going to sway anyone in a position of authority with illegal behavior.

rando

those damn trespassing chickens!

John E

Hitting bicyclists with the same $242 fine as motorists is a gross miscarriage of justice, as is selective enforcement.

sbhikes

Tresspassing chickens?

We've got a neighbor who will turn your car in if you park it more than 3 days on the street. Funny thing is, this anonymous neighbor we've never been able to identify only goes after ugly vehicles.

Anyway, total digression. Bek has the right idea. The road should not be banned to cyclists, but other more desireable roads should be promoted.

I really don't get the bus driver antagonism toward cyclists. In my area the bus drivers and cyclists are on the same side. Maybe it helps the director of the MTD is a total environmentalist experimenting with electric and hybrid buses. Maybe it helps those electric buses can barely accellerate to 5 miles an hour on the overpass.

Eli_Damon

Isn't it absurd that someone operating a six- to eight-foot-wide vehicle has nerve to suggest banning two-foot-wide vehicles because there isn't enough road width to pass them? I could more justifiably suggest that cars be banned from narrow roads because there isn't enough road width for cyclists to pass. In fact, I get stuck behind cars on a regular basis. Cars are SO SLOW!

steveknight

the street is a bit tricky since going up hill and lots of traffic and lots of parked cars. myself I don't go up it I will use a side street. going down is fine as I fly down it.

Daily Commute

In Ohio, we have what I think is a fair compromise--cyclists face the same fines, but we don't get points on our license for routine traffic violations.

Back to the thread topic. Part of the natural tension between cyclists and busses is leap frog. Busses generally go faster than us between stops, but they stop a lot. They pass us, we pass them, they pass us, we pass them. Either one of us could end the leap frop by just staying behind, but we both have a schedule and I don't want to suck their fumes the whole way.

On one multi-lane one-way street, I've sometimes moved to the far left lane just to avoid the leap frog. That works in the early morning hours when there is little traffic.

Eli_Damon

Yes. Sometimes when I am approaching a bus at a bus stop, I will stop and wait for the bus to leave rather than pass it and risk initiating a game of leap frog.