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Old 06-12-07, 03:51 PM   #1
workingbike
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Bikes are Safe because they're Dangerous?

Perhaps a better way of saying it is "Bikes are dangerous because they're vulnerable"?
This article basically confirms what I have thought for a while now,
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
that is, that a significant percentage of SUV drivers buy them for the "perceived" feeling
of safety it gives them. Which is another way of saying they're scared, to often scared
drivers are that way because they're crap drivers. So , now we have numerous crap drivers
out there in vehicles which are more dangerous to others.

Comments?
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Old 06-12-07, 04:24 PM   #2
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Little vehicles are more deadly, middle and big vehicles are safer.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...topart=pickups
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Old 06-12-07, 04:38 PM   #3
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I use my SUV to haul my and my freinds and families bikes to races and rides, in comfort and style.
It's not the vehicle......it's the driver.
However some vehicles attract a certain type of driver.
Volvos have a great safety record in part to the fact that safety minded drivers buy Volvos because Volvos have a great safety record.
I haven't noticed SUV drivers being any worse than others. Now Mini Vans, thats a another thing......
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Old 06-12-07, 04:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddyfish
Little vehicles are more deadly, middle and big vehicles are safer.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...topart=pickups
This is crash data. Factor in the data for avoiding a crash and then you'd have a better idea of what's a safer vehicle.

Personally, I'd prefer my chances in a Boxter driven by an attentive, skilled driver than a Tahoe driven by a distracted, inexperienced driver.
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Old 06-12-07, 04:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
I like my SUV.
Why? Not being provocative, just an honest question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
All SUVs are not created equal.
Granted, I would much rather be in a Porsche Cayenne that an Impala.
All other things being equal, though............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.
Agreed, see point 2 above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
The issues aren't as cut and dried as people wish they were.
Never said they were, do you think though, that some people who drive SUVs do so because they feel less than confident in their driving ability?
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Old 06-12-07, 04:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddyfish
Little vehicles are more deadly, middle and big vehicles are safer.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...topart=pickups
Only true if you are talking about after the accident has occurred. What about avoiding it in the first place? Question, did you read the article I linked to?
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Old 06-12-07, 04:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
I like my SUV.

All SUVs are not created equal.

Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.

The issues aren't as cut and dried as people wish they were.
What do you drive?

(full disclosure: my wife has a Pontiac Montana minivan which I sometimes drive).
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Old 06-12-07, 05:03 PM   #8
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I drove a semi-SUV once -- a Subaru Forester. I didn't feel particularly safe -- it was so strangely high and tippy-feeling. Kind of like a Volkswagen Bus on stilts. If I had to drive one of those SUVs, I'd go along slowly and carefully. I admit that I am prejudiced against them -- they have redneck, trailer trash associations for me. However, if I needed to carry a huge amount of stuff and needed 4WD, I'd consider owning a SUV. Like any vehicle, they have their limitations and are safe if operated within them.

It all comes down to the old observation that the most dangerous part of any vehicle is the "nut behind the steering wheel."

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Old 06-12-07, 05:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
I like my SUV.

All SUVs are not created equal.

Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.

The issues aren't as cut and dried as people wish they were.
Yes they are, you are just another stinkin cager!
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Old 06-12-07, 05:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLIZZ
I use my SUV to haul my and my freinds and families bikes to races and rides, in comfort and style.
It's not the vehicle......it's the driver.
However some vehicles attract a certain type of driver.
Volvos have a great safety record in part to the fact that safety minded drivers buy Volvos because Volvos have a great safety record.
I haven't noticed SUV drivers being any worse than others. Now Mini Vans, thats a another thing......
I can agree with some of what you say, but around here, the first snowfall of the season almost always presents me with the sight of an SUV in a ditch. In far greater numbers than regular cars or minivans. And no, thats not because there are more on the road.
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Old 06-12-07, 05:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Better gas mileage than the one it replaced, powerful engine with a great torque curve, comfortable, lots of interior room, etc.
Not why you drive that particular SUV, why any SUV?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That's the point. All else isn't equal when ranting about "SUVs," sportscars, bicycles, etc.
Didn't think I was ranting? As a class though, would you agree that SUVs are
less nimble for example than an average family car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
I'm sure there are some folks who think that. Is that a major motivation, or the major motivation for the majority of folks that buy SUVs? I doubt it.
From the type of people I see driving them around here, and the way they drive, I'm not so sure.
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Old 06-12-07, 06:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
What "type" of people is that? How can you tell that they are less than confident in their driving abilities, by looking at them?
They dither, they make indecisive movements, they seem to take far too long to make maneuvers, generally, they drive in what I would consider to be an incompetent manner.
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Old 06-12-07, 07:08 PM   #13
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Isn't it a matter of degree? So SUV's are bigger and may encourage people to be worse drivers. Isn't it still the case that a careless Jetta driver plowing head-on into a cyclist is still capable of doing a lot of damage?
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Old 06-12-07, 08:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That describes their driving, not what they look like.
It describes what they look like when they drive.
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Old 06-12-07, 08:45 PM   #15
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I think all cars suck. In urban areas, they're completely unnecessary, and a shocking waste of money. In rural areas, it's a totally different story.
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Old 06-12-07, 08:48 PM   #16
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welcome to the human condition

Most of the folks, or rather all the folks, who when asked about their driving choices and habits will almost without fail rate themselves and their choice in vehicle pretty gosh darn good. Its always the other guy (or gal), driving that other SUV, not me and not my SUV

Well, I'm sorry the stats don't lie, somebody is driving all those SUV's into all those accidents. Many, many of which are fatal to themselves never mind the other vehicle involved. Statistically not everyone can be a great driver, chances are pretty good that a % of you, I'm afraid to say, probably are not very good drivers in general and would probably make the exact wrong move (or no move at all) when faced with the milli-second response time decision need in a high speed road accident in particular.

And while we're talking science, lets talk physics, as in Newtons Second & Third Laws. Force is related to mass, the heavier the vehicle the more force involved in a collision, the greater the chance for increased damage and trauma to the human occupants. The resultant forces acted upon another veichle have to obey the Third law again resulting in increased damage. Both of which also account for the flip overs since coupled with a high center of gravity (and just plain bad design) the inclination to flip is greatly increased

No one likes to hear that their particular choice of vehicle is "bad", its normal human behavior to get defensive, try to justify why it is OK in "our" case, I don't cause all those accidents, the gas millage on my SUV is not so bad and besides I use it to take poor orphans to church on Sundays. The fact of the matter is that SUVs have some serious social, environmental, and safety related issues that need a second look. Hopefully we can get past this current phase of SUV buying and in twenty years or so we can look back and ask just what the heck were we thinking?!
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Old 06-12-07, 09:07 PM   #17
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Interesting. So, they assume that we should put ourselves in danger, by swerving out of our lane, when someone else puts their life in danger. We need to train our drivers to stop doing this.
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Old 06-12-07, 09:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingbike
Not why you drive that particular SUV, why any SUV?



Didn't think I was ranting? As a class though, would you agree that SUVs are
less nimble for example than an average family car?
Nimble? How nimble would the family car be getting over the humps in the Forest Service roads in the Sierras to get back in away from the crowds during hunting season? You can't rent a vehicle and take it off the main roads without voiding the insurance.
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Old 06-12-07, 09:17 PM   #19
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Well Pete, I hope your not expecting a thundering endorsement of the SUV concept on a forum dedicated to all things bicycle related and one specific to Advocacy & Safety are you?

I'd also point out that you're using the very defense I spoke of. Your SUV is not a "bad" one, your choices are OK etc... In fairness you might well have the SUV par excellence, the veritable paragon of safety that runs on discarded trans-fats for all I know, but its also probably true that even taking as a fact that your SUV and your driving skills are as good as one could expect, this doesn't help the statistics that prove again and again the safety issues with large SUVs and it doesn't change the basic physics
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Old 06-12-07, 09:37 PM   #20
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Well this is the A & S sub-forum - heated opinions are allowed.

BTW, a spiel is way longer than one measly paragraph!
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Old 06-12-07, 11:10 PM   #21
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<--- I love my SUV too.


(see avatar)
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Old 06-13-07, 06:15 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
The original comment separated the two aspects, what they looked like, and their driving habits.

He answered the latter part, not the former.
No, the original comment didn't say anything about what they looked like. That was you injecting thoughts into other people's comments so you can discredit them.

The aspects addressed by the original comment were the type of people they were and their driving habits, likely separated to cover all bases to make the inherency of the property irrelevant.
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Old 06-13-07, 07:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloso
This is crash data. Factor in the data for avoiding a crash and then you'd have a better idea of what's a safer vehicle.

Personally, I'd prefer my chances in a Boxter driven by an attentive, skilled driver than a Tahoe driven by a distracted, inexperienced driver.
+1
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Old 06-13-07, 07:47 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingbike
I can agree with some of what you say, but around here, the first snowfall of the season almost always presents me with the sight of an SUV in a ditch. In far greater numbers than regular cars or minivans. And no, thats not because there are more on the road.
Ever see one of it's side or upside down after an accident? There's usually someone standing next to it with this look of "gee, they told me this was supposed to be a safe vehicle" on their face. That high center of gravity needed for all of those rugged off road excursions is a huge liability when they start to lean.
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Old 06-13-07, 09:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingbike
Perhaps a better way of saying it is "Bikes are dangerous because they're vulnerable"?
This article basically confirms what I have thought for a while now,
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
that is, that a significant percentage of SUV drivers buy them for the "perceived" feeling
of safety it gives them. Which is another way of saying they're scared, to often scared
drivers are that way because they're crap drivers. So , now we have numerous crap drivers
out there in vehicles which are more dangerous to others.

Comments?
Perception is a funny thing and when someone suggests to me, bikes are dangerous because the people riding them are vulnerable, I just mention that in my province just about twice the number of people are struck by motor vehicles walking as riding a bike, but the people walking are killed at a rate of over 10 times that of those on bicycles.
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