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  1. #1
    Death's Right Hand
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    Road or paved path?

    I'm sure this has been talked about 20,000 times, but I'm curious.

    I'm in the market for a new bike and I will be commuting to work 3 days a week. One of the roads is very busy and there is a nice paved path right next to the road. (It's basically a mini road for bikes) Every morning while I drive in my car there is always bikes in the middle of the right lane holding up traffic and adding extra time to peoples commute since they will not move out of the center of the lane.

    Although I support people who ride bikes for their primary mode of transportation and I will be riding very soon as well... I find it very frustrating they are not using the bike path created for this exact purpose. The worst situation is when there is only one cyclist taking up an entire lane!

    Do you think cyclist should take a paved path dedicated for them, or take up an entire lane during rush hour traffic? Even if there wasn't a paved path, do you think one - four cyclist should take an entire lane rather than riding as close as they can to the curb?

  2. #2
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjrocco View Post
    I'm sure this has been talked about 20,000 times, but I'm curious.

    I'm in the market for a new bike and I will be commuting to work 3 days a week. One of the roads is very busy and there is a nice paved path right next to the road. (It's basically a mini road for bikes) Every morning while I drive in my car there is always bikes in the middle of the right lane holding up traffic and adding extra time to peoples commute since they will not move out of the center of the lane.

    Although I support people who ride bikes for their primary mode of transportation and I will be riding very soon as well... I find it very frustrating they are not using the bike path created for this exact purpose. The worst situation is when there is only one cyclist taking up an entire lane!

    Do you think cyclist should take a paved path dedicated for them, or take up an entire lane during rush hour traffic? Even if there wasn't a paved path, do you think one - four cyclist should take an entire lane rather than riding as close as they can to the curb?
    Have you evaluated the path as a cyclist... or are you just looking at it as a motor car driver... both from a distance and without viewing the issues a cyclist may face.

    Is the path full of glass? What kind of access does the path offer? Does it come to the same intersections as the road, with more dangerous uncontrolled transitions? What is the condition of the actual pavement... is it cracked and broken? Is the path filled with slow moving pedestrians wearing iPods walking "Fluffy" on a long leash?

    If there are multiple lanes on the road, what keeps motorists from moving to the other lane... just as you expect cyclists to move to the path?

  3. #3
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    Along my commute I have a section that is much like you describe. Here's how it works for me. The path emerges from a regional park near my home. I ride into the regional park and follow the path to a road. The path continues adjacent to the road but I choose to exit the path and join the roadway. Why? The path turns away from my path about a mile and half past the park. To rejoin the roadway at that point I would have to jump a grass median and curb, cross a traffic lane back to the other side of the road while not at an intersection. In that mile and half, all the cars that go by me no doudt wonder why I'm not over on that nice path next to the road. Well, I've got 13 more miles to cover and that path dosn't go there. So I choose not to use the path for that short distance. I feel I put myself in more danger by having to merge with the traffic at an unexpected place if I followed the trail as far as possible (no vehicle would expect a ped or bike to be crossing where the trail veers from my route).

    I'm not trail adverse. I use trails for about 1/3 of my commute. But they are some of the best designed bicycle commuter trails in the country. How's that trail you pass. Do you have to share with other users like peds? Is built with transportation in mind or recreation? Is it at least 10 feet wide? Does it provide enough access points to allow the transportational cyclist to get on and off when they need to? Is it a integrated of the transportion arteries in the region or just kind dropped in where there was space?

    Do you understand better why they might make the choices they do?

    Scot

  4. #4
    Minneapolis, MN
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    By the way, this describes every bike commuter in the country
    Quote Originally Posted by pjrocco View Post
    The worst situation is when there is only one cyclist taking up an entire lane!
    No other cyclist leave from my driveway and ride to my office. There's only ever one cyclist doing that trip a day.

    Scot

  5. #5
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    There is an asymmetry to consider, as well. If a two-way bicycle path is adjacent to northbound travel lanes, then a southbound cyclist must make at least two awkward and potentially dangerous crossings, one to get to the path, and the second to return to the road. In addition, each cross-street intersection generally presents extreme danger for such contra-flow cyclists, because motorists are simply not looking in that direction. (It is bad enough for the northbound cyclists in my example, who must contend with being set up for a right-hook at every intersection.)

    Most collisions occur at intersections rather than mid-block, and most Class I paths increase the risk of being struck at an intersection.
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  6. #6
    Commuter JohnBrooking's Avatar
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    As you are finding out, the answer is usually - it depends! If the path is convenient, if it is on one or both sides of the street, if it doesn't have too many intersections, if it is not full of non-cycling users or cyclists who don't know how to share a path, if it is in good condition...

    As to taking up a lane, that is recommended for narrow lanes where passing is not safe. But that said, I think it can be overdone, where sometimes simply riding a bit out into the lane will suffice, so that cars cannot pass without moving left somewhat, but don't have to move all the way into an adjacent lane. I think it's mostly about visibility and body language. It is also common courtesy if you have to take the lane for some time, to pull over and let cars pass for a while if they are building up behind you.

    At signalized intersections, bikes often take a lane, or at least half of one, to properly position themselves for their destination. See Street Smarts, especially chapters 2 and 3.

    Good luck with your soon-to-be commuting! See you in the Commuting forum?
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  7. #7
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    Part of the point of the OP if I understand what he is saying is that some bicyclists not only 'take to the road', but TAKE OVER THE ROAD. This is unnecessary in most cases. Bikes can usually travel within 24 inches of the curb safely, and THEY OUGHT TO. Bicyclists should not ride abreast of one another and they should not be out in the middle of a lane unless there are good reasons to be out there--drainage grates, debris on the curbway, or similar unsafe materials, or b/c the bike needs to move over to make a left turn, etcetera. This would allow cars on most roadways to go around the biker with more than adequate clearance, rather than forcing the faster-moving auto to creep along at the slower pace of the biker. I ALWAYS try to be considerate of the fact that my bike is an impediment to cars. I WALK my bike across most crosswalks, I don't pretend I have any right to 'own' a lane, and whenever needful I take to a sidewalk so that neither I nor the automobile traffic are 'crowding' one another. (If there are pedestrians on the sidewalk, I dismount and walk my bike; since virtually no one actually walks anywhere these days, this is rarely necessary).

    I realise that motorists also need to be conscious of and sensitive to the needs of bike riders as well. I realise that some are incredibly rude and obnoxious. But I have also experienced more than my share of very rude bike riders. The roadways simply are not designed for bicycling, and very few have bike lanes. In my community, the bike trails are scenic but generally useless for getting anywhere practical. Roads and sidewalks are the most-direct route to places people actually need to go every day.

  8. #8
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Here's one point of view on paths next to roads: http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/faci...ath/issues.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrooking View Post
    I think it can be overdone, where sometimes simply riding a bit out into the lane will suffice, so that cars cannot pass without moving left somewhat, but don't have to move all the way into an adjacent lane.
    I agree on a two-lane road, but disagree on a multilane road - but this is really just a fine tuning of a concept which is probably best suited for another thread. Good luck on the commuting!

  9. #9
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
    Part of the point of the OP if I understand what he is saying is that some bicyclists not only 'take to the road', but TAKE OVER THE ROAD. This is unnecessary in most cases. Bikes can usually travel within 24 inches of the curb safely, and THEY OUGHT TO.
    Road widths, conditions, speeds, etc. differ from place to place, so I don't think such a sweeping generalization is a good idea. On some roads, if I ride within 24 inches of the curb I will get passed too closely every time. Yet on other roads, I can ride even only 12 inches from the curb and be considerate without the expense of my safety.

    Without more information from the OP, it's really hard to make a judgment about whether the cyclist in question was being unnecessarily inconsiderate or needed to use the full lane for his own safety.

  10. #10
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
    Part of the point of the OP if I understand what he is saying is that some bicyclists not only 'take to the road', but TAKE OVER THE ROAD. This is unnecessary in most cases. Bikes can usually travel within 24 inches of the curb safely, and THEY OUGHT TO. Bicyclists should not ride abreast of one another and they should not be out in the middle of a lane unless there are good reasons to be out there--drainage grates, debris on the curbway, or similar unsafe materials, or b/c the bike needs to move over to make a left turn, etcetera. This would allow cars on most roadways to go around the biker with more than adequate clearance, rather than forcing the faster-moving auto to creep along at the slower pace of the biker. I ALWAYS try to be considerate of the fact that my bike is an impediment to cars. I WALK my bike across most crosswalks, I don't pretend I have any right to 'own' a lane, and whenever needful I take to a sidewalk so that neither I nor the automobile traffic are 'crowding' one another. (If there are pedestrians on the sidewalk, I dismount and walk my bike; since virtually no one actually walks anywhere these days, this is rarely necessary).

    I realise that motorists also need to be conscious of and sensitive to the needs of bike riders as well. I realise that some are incredibly rude and obnoxious. But I have also experienced more than my share of very rude bike riders. The roadways simply are not designed for bicycling, and very few have bike lanes. In my community, the bike trails are scenic but generally useless for getting anywhere practical. Roads and sidewalks are the most-direct route to places people actually need to go every day.
    I would love watching you and the OP do my 20 mile one way commute. I wonder how much of it you would be walking.

    It would be especially fun to watch you (cyclist should just stay out of the way) guys ride this section:


    Hope you enjoy riding 6 inch shoulders!

    Good luck on your commutes.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    I would love watching you and the OP do my 20 mile one way commute. I wonder how much of it you would be walking.

    It would be especially fun to watch you (cyclist should just stay out of the way) guys ride this section:


    Hope you enjoy riding 6 inch shoulders!

    Good luck on your commutes.
    I would not ride a bike along that route. I'd drive to a safe juncture and bike the remainder. Or not bike at all. I don't block traffic just for the fun of riding a bike.

  12. #12
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
    I would not ride a bike along that route. I'd drive to a safe juncture and bike the remainder. Or not bike at all. I don't block traffic just for the fun of riding a bike.
    If you don't want to ride in a place where you may delay faster traffic, that is certainly your choice. I don't see that riding a bike is a lesser use of the roads than driving a car - especially when I'm riding home from work and car traffic going to a concert or ballgame slows me down. I agree with your point about rude bike riders - but on the other hand, I'm not going to be a doormat out there and risk my safety/convenience for the sake of not delaying motorists.

    But in this picture, it looks to me like the two lane portion is uphill and the one lane portion is downhill. The speed limit sign looks like it says 35, a downhill cyclist would ride close to that speed and not significantly delay anyone. On the uphill side, a cyclist would be going much slower, but faster traffic can use the left lane to pass.

  13. #13
    Je pose, donc je suis. gcl8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    I would love watching you and the OP do my 20 mile one way commute. I wonder how much of it you would be walking.

    It would be especially fun to watch you (cyclist should just stay out of the way) guys ride this section:

    Hope you enjoy riding 6 inch shoulders!

    Good luck on your commutes.
    But there's plenty of room between the rail and the grass...

    And stop posting pictures of Hawaii. That place isn't real. (Now where did I put my jacket?)

  14. #14
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Without more information from the OP, it's really hard to make a judgment about whether the cyclist in question was being unnecessarily inconsiderate or needed to use the full lane for his own safety.
    +1

    OP, if a bike lane is held to the same scrutiny and safety standards as the adjacent road, then I'd expect cyclists to use it.

    Until then, they have to be taken on both a case-by-case basis, and a cyclist-by-cyclist basis.

    Perhaps you would like to share the exact location, so we can look it up and give specific opinions. Otherwise we might start making silly assumptions.

    For example, you mention bicycles being in the middle of the "right" lane. I wonder then if this is a multi-lane road, and if so, why you don't just move one lane over?

    I would not ride a bike along that route. I'd drive to a safe juncture and bike the remainder. Or not bike at all. I don't block traffic just for the fun of riding a bike.
    And I don't wear white shoes after labor day.
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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcl8a View Post
    But there's plenty of room between the rail and the grass...

    And stop posting pictures of Hawaii. That place isn't real. (Now where did I put my jacket?)
    Hey, you got better soccer. Sorry, football.

  16. #16
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
    I would not ride a bike along that route. I'd drive to a safe juncture and bike the remainder. Or not bike at all. I don't block traffic just for the fun of riding a bike.
    I would suggest you not drive your car on this road either, YOU can just use the FREEWAY, which is where you belong!

  17. #17
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
    I would not ride a bike along that route. I'd drive to a safe juncture and bike the remainder. Or not bike at all. I don't block traffic just for the fun of riding a bike.
    So what do you suggest to those of us who do not own cars?
    "Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."

  18. #18
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    So what do you suggest to those of us who do not own cars?
    Probably a cell-phone belt clip and blue tooth ear piece, a sales job to pay for it, group think, and ass sweat.
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  19. #19
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjrocco View Post
    Do you think cyclist should take a paved path dedicated for them, or take up an entire lane during rush hour traffic?
    I think you can only deal in specific cases regarding this question. There is no one 'correct' answer.

    I suggest you try both the path and the road, both kerb-hugging and lane claiming, and decide which is best for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjrocco View Post
    Even if there wasn't a paved path, do you think one - four cyclist should take an entire lane rather than riding as close as they can to the curb?
    I think they can, and should, if the situation demanded it.

    In freely moving traffic, I prefer single file on narrow lanes, but claim enough of it to discourage drivers from thinking they can pass within the lane. However, if the next lane over is clogged, it makes no difference if you ride single of double, they can't pass either way. In that case, doubling up makes for a shorter group, and a more sociable one.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  20. #20
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    flameburns623,

    I feel sorry for the IL cyclist that have to put up with you driving a bus!

    Hopefully, a little more cycling experience will change your attitude. (not holding my breath)
    Last edited by CB HI; 07-26-07 at 04:00 AM.

  21. #21
    Ride the Road Daily Commute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
    I would not ride a bike along that route. I'd drive to a safe juncture and bike the remainder. Or not bike at all. I don't block traffic just for the fun of riding a bike.
    Neither do I. But I don't mind slowing down a motorist for my safety's sake. Sometimes cagers slow me down. Sometimes I slow them down. Big deal.

    But as to the OP's question, I agree with those who say, "it depends." I have a path I can take almost the whole way to work, but it adds 10-15 minutes to my commute (20-25 minutes via street to 30-35 minutes via the path). It's also a real pain on nice afternoons because it's filled with idiots who don't know how to share a path.

  22. #22
    Death's Right Hand
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    Good info so far, thanks guys. I just want to make myself clear again... I'm not bashing riders, or complaining, I'm just trying to figure out why people will take a full lane up rather than use a bike lane.

    To give you a little more info; It is a four lane road, with a 3 - 5 foot shoulder, right next to the road on one side is the bike lane/paved path. It looks to be in pretty good shape, it's not as flawless as the road, but defiantly not in bad shape. There are your one in a while joggers, walkers and mothers pushing their strollers, but not enough to make a bike not use it. It is also wide enough for two or three bikes to travel on it wide. Attached is a google shot of the road and path. The path is on the right side and looks like a mini road. I tried to mark it up in paint, but I suck! I used my personal address to get close to the road, so that is why I blacked it out.



  23. #23
    Senior Member
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    The problem with those 'side of the road' paths is when you get to intersections - drivers aren't looking there, and they're exceptionally dangerous.

    I live in Reston, VA which has those sorts of 'bike roads' along side the major roads. To their credit, they often have them on both sides of the road. However, they're usually not usable, simply because they cross intersections at odd angles that give you and drivers poor visibility of each other.

    Here's a map of an intersection of one of our road-side bike paths. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...&t=k&z=19&om=0 The path intersects 4 onramps to the freeway, and on this one riders come out from behind a barrier that screens them from seeing or being seen by drivers, then puts us right into the onramp at a bad angle. Drivers making the turn onto the onramp see riders very late. They are also not in a mood to stop as they approach the freeway.

    I originally started commuting on these sorts of roads. After almost getting plowed by drivers who either 1) didn't see me, or 2) didn't think I should exist there, I stopped using them. I found another way to work where I can ride in the road - on a road with lower speed limits - for part of my commute, then connect to a MUP for the rest. Our MUP is great, it actually gets overpasses for all of the bad intersections.

    So I would say, before you complain about why cyclists don't use that path, try it yourself for a month and see how you feel then.

  24. #24
    Senior Member TimArchy's Avatar
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    I think it comes back to the question of if the path is suitable for the type of cycling that the riders are doing. A good bit of my commute is paralleled by a multi-use path. I don't use it for several of the reasons stated (poor access, sketchy intersections...) and also for the fact that it is paved in the same manner as a sidewalk, with seams every 10' or so. At speed (aprox 15mph), these make for a very uncomfortable ride. I'm trying to get to work as quickly and easily as possible and the path just doesn't cut it.
    This does bring up an interesting observation though. I receive more crap from drivers on multi-lane roads than I do on 2 lane roads. It seems that if there is an easy way to pass me (another lane proceeding in the same direction), drivers would be able to get around with ease. But I suppose changing lanes is simply too much work for some people to handle. From the picture above it looks like there should be no problems with a cyclist on the road. Even in heavy traffic, cars can change lanes and pass easily adding only a few moments to their commute. As a cyclist I would also take the lane in that situation. Anyone who can't be bothered to change lanes to pass me needs to check their priorities or leave 15 seconds earlier tomorrow.
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  25. #25
    Death's Right Hand
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Underbridge View Post

    So I would say, before you complain about why cyclists don't use that path, try it yourself for a month and see how you feel then.
    For the third time, I'm not complaining, I'm just curious if there was a reason why they are not using the path dedicated for them!

    Please read what I'm saying/asking.

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