Lane splitting
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Lane splitting
What are the groups thoughts on lane splitting? At long lines of cars at stop lights, stop signs, and in moving traffic.
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I don't feel comfortable doing it when traffic is moving, only when when cars are at stops lights. It could be I'm just not expierienced enough but mostly I don't think it's safe.
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Lane splitting or filtering? They are different things. It sounds like you are talking about filtering.
It depends on the situation for me. If there is enough room that the cars won't have to go out of their way to pass me once they start up, then I will filter (i.e. room for me, 3 feet in between, and them).
If there isn't enough room and they have to change lanes to pass, then it is completely rude to filter, as they were there first, after all. It is even more rude if they had to go out of their way to pass you once and then you filter past them at the next light, and then they have to pass you AGAIN.
But, like everything else, it is completely dependent on the exact situation at the exact moment and can change each and every time even at the same place.
It depends on the situation for me. If there is enough room that the cars won't have to go out of their way to pass me once they start up, then I will filter (i.e. room for me, 3 feet in between, and them).
If there isn't enough room and they have to change lanes to pass, then it is completely rude to filter, as they were there first, after all. It is even more rude if they had to go out of their way to pass you once and then you filter past them at the next light, and then they have to pass you AGAIN.
But, like everything else, it is completely dependent on the exact situation at the exact moment and can change each and every time even at the same place.
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I examine how many light cycles there will be before I reach the stop light, and how easily the traffic will be able to pass me once I have passed them.
The key here is not to block traffic you passed unless you can be as fast as traffic or provide a passing area.
The key here is not to block traffic you passed unless you can be as fast as traffic or provide a passing area.
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Originally Posted by SonataInFSharp
Lane splitting or filtering? They are different things.
What do they mean to you?
To me, lane splitting is riding on or near the stripe between two normal traffic lanes such that part of you is in each of the two lanes.
Lane sharing is riding along the side of a lane, but without encroaching into an adjacent lane, such that you and another vehicle can fit entirely within the lane side-by-side.
Filtering forward is using either lane splitting or lane sharing or a bike lane to pass congested slower traffic.
What do they mean to you?
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Originally Posted by SonataInFSharp
If there isn't enough room and they have to change lanes to pass, then it is completely rude to filter, as they were there first, after all. It is even more rude if they had to go out of their way to pass you once and then you filter past them at the next light, and then they have to pass you AGAIN.
But, like everything else, it is completely dependent on the exact situation at the exact moment and can change each and every time even at the same place.
I have not filtered forward even when others I am riding with do. It puts the others having to wait on me to catch up, but more and more are starting to stay in possition with me.
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Originally Posted by BLIZZ
That is exactly how I see it as well.
I have not filtered forward even when others I am riding with do. It puts the others having to wait on me to catch up, but more and more are starting to stay in possition with me.
I have not filtered forward even when others I am riding with do. It puts the others having to wait on me to catch up, but more and more are starting to stay in possition with me.
#8
Prefers Cicero
I filter but I don't impede cars I've passed. It would be ridiculous not to filter when there are 50 cars waiting at a light and I have a clear path to the front; but it would be provocative to then "take the lane" and hold the traffic down to my speed. However I will sometimes move in front of someone signalling a right turn, so they have room to turn behind me. Either that, or I will hang back one or two spaces at the light. so I'm not interfering with the first one or two cars turning, and I will make sure the cars nearest me don't right hook me.
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Originally Posted by Winter76
I don't feel comfortable doing it when traffic is moving, only when when cars are at stops lights. It could be I'm just not expierienced enough but mostly I don't think it's safe.
Let's not pretend this expedient behavior is 'vehicular,' however.
Robert
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Originally Posted by RobertHurst
I think a lot of people feel that way, but the truth is that it is more dangerous to split lanes between solid lines of cars when traffic is not moving. That is because stopped traffic introduces the additional hazards of doors and pedestrians, and even motor traffic crossing at right angles, hitting gaps in the lines. Lines of very congested traffic _in motion_ comprise a relatively stable, benign situation that can be carved at will by confident riders with relatively little risk.
The only thing you have to watch out for is that a moving car can change lanes quicker than a stopped car, so beware of sudden gaps that car drivers could suddenly "jump" into.
Let's not pretend this expedient behavior is 'vehicular,' however.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
It is according to the CHP, and that works for me. No pretending required. Just because it's technically illegal here or there is immaterial to whether something is "vehicular" or not (if something is illegal universally, like running red lights, then, yeah, that is not vehicular).
To most reasonable people, I would hazard to guess, this would seem to be a pretty outlandish claim.
R.
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Originally Posted by RobertHurst
What specifically is the basis for your calling lane-splitting, between two lines of vehicles, 'vehicular cycling?'
To most reasonable people, I would hazard to guess, this would seem to be a pretty outlandish claim.
R.
To most reasonable people, I would hazard to guess, this would seem to be a pretty outlandish claim.
R.
If you're talking about the people who have heard of "vehicular cycling", and have some idea of what it means to them, and are reasonable, they might not see it right away.
For people who have an in-depth understanding of "vehicular cycling", including the "arguable" father of coining the term and what it means, it's pretty clear, since VC is understood to stem from the underlying general principles and rules of the road that do not preclude lane-splitting by drivers of vehicles narrow enough to do it safely. That's the basis.
Further, "lanes" are understood to be a general artifact of vehicular traffic, and not necessarily demarcated with stripes. Some streets have no stripes, for example, and yet have an (unmarked) lane in each direction. Modern demarcated lanes are designed assuming roadways are primarily used by vehicles in the 5-8' wide range. Many assumptions about proper "vehicular" lane usage therefore are made regarding how drivers of such vehicles use these lanes. But for drivers of narrow vehicles (motorcycles and bikes), these assumptions do not apply. Marked lanes can, for example, often be safely divided dymically into two unmarked lanes to be shared by motorcyclists riding side-by-side. There is nothing non-vehicular about that, it's just utilizing the advantages of narrow width vehicles. Similarly, on the other extreme, drivers of extra wide vehicles sometimes need to straddle two marked lanes and use them as a single lane. That's vehicular too.
So, to really understand "vehicular cycling" with respect to lanes, the prejudices about normal usage of marked lanes by drivers of standard width vehicles need to be cast aside. In particular, the "one vehicle per lane" rule does not necessarily apply, especially for drivers of extra-narrow vehicles, and the rules against straddling multiple lanes, designed to preclude drivers of normal width vehicles from simultaneously occupying two lanes, do not apply to drivers of narrow vehicles either.
That is the basis for recognizing lane-splitting, when safe and reasonable, to be part of "vehicular cycling".
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A/C V/C D/C L/C
wow,
Nothing makes sense to me.
I call it driving in an auto scale.
Sharing a lane with 45mph traffic,
WOL to ROTL continues WOL.
3 lines of vehicles parked for hours waiting.
A Bike lane on the road crosses the train tracks ends up on the sidewalk.
wow,
Nothing makes sense to me.
I call it driving in an auto scale.
Sharing a lane with 45mph traffic,
WOL to ROTL continues WOL.
3 lines of vehicles parked for hours waiting.
A Bike lane on the road crosses the train tracks ends up on the sidewalk.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
...If you're talking about the people who have heard of "vehicular cycling", and have some idea of what it means to them, and are reasonable, they might not see it right away.
For people who have an in-depth understanding of "vehicular cycling", including the "arguable" father of coining the term and what it means, it's pretty clear, since VC is understood to stem from the underlying general principles and rules of the road that do not preclude lane-splitting by drivers of vehicles narrow enough to do it safely. That's the basis.".
For people who have an in-depth understanding of "vehicular cycling", including the "arguable" father of coining the term and what it means, it's pretty clear, since VC is understood to stem from the underlying general principles and rules of the road that do not preclude lane-splitting by drivers of vehicles narrow enough to do it safely. That's the basis.".
Here's HH just a month or two ago explaining why lane-splitting is 'definitely not vehicular-cycling.' He said he thought the reasons for this were obvious.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
First, it's the law. "A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane".
https://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21658.htm
I think the reasons are obvious. If you think it's silly, I can't help you.
Second, it's not a matter of a few inches. To be entirely within a lane, your tire must be one foot to the left or right of the lane stripe. To be vehicular, if you're 2' wide, the only time your wheels should be within one foot of the lane stripe is when you're changing lanes. That's not a difference of a few inches, that's a difference of two feet.
... I think of it in terms of sharing one lane or another with a car (that was certainly the case in the scenario I described earlier). If it's not wide enough to do that safely (and of course slowly), then, yes, don't do it. And if you do, it's definitely not vehicular-cycling.
https://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21658.htm
I think the reasons are obvious. If you think it's silly, I can't help you.
Second, it's not a matter of a few inches. To be entirely within a lane, your tire must be one foot to the left or right of the lane stripe. To be vehicular, if you're 2' wide, the only time your wheels should be within one foot of the lane stripe is when you're changing lanes. That's not a difference of a few inches, that's a difference of two feet.
... I think of it in terms of sharing one lane or another with a car (that was certainly the case in the scenario I described earlier). If it's not wide enough to do that safely (and of course slowly), then, yes, don't do it. And if you do, it's definitely not vehicular-cycling.
R.
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Originally Posted by RobertHurst
You seemed to feel strongly about this at the time. Alas, you missed your chance to start your own VC-ist sect, to battle the dark forces of the lane-splitting JF sect for all eternity, and chose instead to fall in/on line, and pretend like you never had those heathen thoughts at all. That was an eerily religious conversion you had.
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Originally Posted by RobertHurst
Pretty clear...Pretty deep is what it is.
Here's HH just a month or two ago explaining why lane-splitting is 'definitely not vehicular-cycling.' He said he thought the reasons for this were obvious.
You seemed to feel strongly about this at the time. Alas, you missed your chance to start your own VC-ist sect, to battle the dark forces of the lane-splitting JF sect for all eternity, and chose instead to fall in/on line, and pretend like you never had those heathen thoughts at all. That was an eerily religious conversion you had.
R.
Here's HH just a month or two ago explaining why lane-splitting is 'definitely not vehicular-cycling.' He said he thought the reasons for this were obvious.
You seemed to feel strongly about this at the time. Alas, you missed your chance to start your own VC-ist sect, to battle the dark forces of the lane-splitting JF sect for all eternity, and chose instead to fall in/on line, and pretend like you never had those heathen thoughts at all. That was an eerily religious conversion you had.
R.
My opinion on this question has evolved, as you know. Only in the field of politics is enlightenment and evolving opinion considered to be a negative (called "flip-flopping").
My opinion used to be based on the assumption that the purpose of laws such as CVC 21658 is to keep same direction traffic from hitting each other side to side by requiring everyone to remain fully within one marked lane or another.
Since then I've been convinced that the real purpose of these laws is keep one driver from simultaneously occupying two lanes. I had not considered that before, and now find it compelling.
I reserve the right to change my opinion again. For example, perhaps someone will present evidence that I was right about 21658 (and similar laws) in the first place. But, at least for now, that is my opinion, for the reasons cited.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
What are the groups thoughts on lane splitting? At long lines of cars at stop lights, stop signs, and in moving traffic.
Originally Posted by SonataInFSharp
It depends on the situation for me.
Be predictable. The more motorists can predict what you are going to do next, the more cooperation you'll get from them. Beyond that, follow your best instinct according to the situation. I try to take my place in traffic with the other vehicles, but I'm also flexible enough to vary the plan if I think it's safe, such turning into a driveway to let a large line of cars pass (courtesy,) or filtering past a long line of cars at a stop sign (another form of courtesy, this time in my favor.)
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I'm all for being predictable, but how can you be predictable to someone who doesn't know you're there, which is pretty much the case when you're filtering forward?
#19
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Jeez, Robert. I was wondering if you would dig that up, then decided you wouldn't stoop that low. Sadly, I was wrong.
#20
Prefers Cicero
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
That is the basis for recognizing lane-splitting, when safe and reasonable, to be part of "vehicular cycling".
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I'm all for being predictable, but how can you be predictable to someone who doesn't know you're there, which is pretty much the case when you're filtering forward?
So if I pass on the right of the impeded flow of cars in an outside lane (filtering) I'm not vehicular, because they don't know I'm there, but if I pass on the right of the impeded flow of cars in the inside lane (ie. lane splitting) that's vehicular cycling because the California Highway Patrol don't object?
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Originally Posted by cooker
"Stoop that low!!!" He pointed out that you are inconsistent in arguments you make here with a lot of apparent conviction and seeming authority; he didn't reveal your secret perversions.
There was no inconsistency in arguments.
There was a change in premise that resulted from learning new information. It was all in the open. Nothing secret or perverse about it.
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Originally Posted by cooker
So if I pass on the right of the impeded flow of cars in an outside lane (filtering) I'm not vehicular, because they don't know I'm there, but if I pass on the right of the impeded flow of cars in the inside lane (ie. lane splitting) that's vehicular cycling because the California Highway Patrol don't object?
What is important is to understand the potential dangers of passing on the right, and lane slitting, and to keep those in mind while engaging in either. And understanding VC principles is helpful in doing this.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 06-16-07 at 04:07 PM.
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probably not safe, riding close to two lanes of cars versus one. but I do it anyways.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
What are the groups thoughts on lane splitting? At long lines of cars at stop lights, stop signs, and in moving traffic.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
What are the groups thoughts on lane splitting? At long lines of cars at stop lights, stop signs, and in moving traffic.
I don't really have any opportunities to split with moving traffic, where I live traffic isn't that bad yet.
~