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  1. #1
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Dublin lowers limit

    from the Independent, Ireland


    30kmh limit to protect cyclists and pedestrians


    Council plan to reduce motoring fatalities in city

    By Treacy Hogan
    Friday August 03 2007


    The new limit is 20kmh less than the current city-wide limit of 50kmh
    (31mph).

    The far slower speed limit is being introduced to help prevent the deaths of
    cyclists and pedestrians, the Irish Independent has learned.

    Key arteries including O'Connell Street, Dame Street, D'Olier Street,
    Westmoreland Street, and the north and southside quays all currently have a
    speed limit of 50kmh since the changeover to metric values.

    Under the new Dublin City Council management initiative these will all be
    slashed to 30kmh along with every other street and road in the city centre
    core.

    A small number of streets, including part of Talbot Street and Temple Bar,
    already have a 30kmh limit but the vast majority are set at 50kmh, including
    the high traffic volume routes. In order to effect the changes, the council
    has held top-level discussions with the National Roads Authority. Because
    streets such as O'Connell St and Westmoreland St are designated as national
    primary roads, they will have to be delisted so that the new limit can be
    introduced.

    The NRA has agreed to delist all of the roads inside the M50 as national
    primary routes to facilitate the new limit, it was also learned. It is
    expected that other councils in cities such as Cork, Galway and Limerick may
    follow the lead set by Dublin in bringing in a radically lower city centre
    speed limit.

    Tim O'Sullivan, senior Dublin City Council traffic executive, said
    yesterday: "We are going to introduce a new lower speed limit of 30kmh in
    the very core of the city centre. It is a safety issue and is a no-brainer.

    "The change is imminent. All of the studies show that when you have a speed
    limit of 20mph in the old values, then safety for cyclists and pedestrians
    is radically improved." Success

    The new limit will be backed with upgrading of the traffic light system and
    a new raft of speed limit signs. The 30kmh limit will be presented to a
    special traffic committee of the council before going out to public
    consultation.

    After that, a new bylaw will be introduced setting the new legal limit for
    motorists.

    Mr O'Sullivan said they were now in a position to make the change following
    on from the success of the Dublin Port Tunnel in removing thousands of
    trucks from the quays and the city centre and the introduction of new
    quality bus corridors.

    "This is about promoting the safety of cyclists and pedestrians," said the
    city council traffic chief.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Stories like that make me mildly concerned that roads with higher speed limits would soon become off limits for cyclists and pedestrians due to safety concerns. Hopefully the lawmakers aren't that foolish.

  3. #3
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Stories like that make me mildly concerned that roads with higher speed limits would soon become off limits for cyclists and pedestrians due to safety concerns. Hopefully the lawmakers aren't that foolish.
    ^^^ that is a concern, but lowering the speed limit is an excellent idea. We should lower them all here as well.
    Not too much to say here

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    ^^^ that is a concern, but lowering the speed limit is an excellent idea. We should lower them all here as well.
    Why? It's not like anyone obeys them anyway. I fail to see what lowering the speed limit will acomplish. I would rather see strict enforcement of current limits and tougher penalties for breaking them, and furthermore absolutely draconian penalties for causing an injury while breaking them. Only once these laws are taken seriously can we hope that adjusting the limits will have an affect.

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    I too would like to see some semblence of enforcement of the laws already on the books.

  6. #6
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    I think the trend is to slow down vehicles for public safety.

    Around here there are more and more "traffic calming" areas.

    The article mentions Limmerick is considering the same change.

  7. #7
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike2math View Post
    Why? It's not like anyone obeys them anyway. I fail to see what lowering the speed limit will acomplish. I would rather see strict enforcement of current limits and tougher penalties for breaking them, and furthermore absolutely draconian penalties for causing an injury while breaking them. Only once these laws are taken seriously can we hope that adjusting the limits will have an affect.
    I support both, much lower speed limits and higher fines and penalties. For first offense $1000, second $3000, 3rd loss of license for 10 years, and seizure of vehicle.
    Mandatory prison terms for causing an injury accident

    Speed limits of 25 and 15 in most places
    Not too much to say here

  8. #8
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    I'm kind of on the fence about this as 30K is waaaaay to easy to hit on a bike. So we'd all be speeding as well. Forcing motorists to slow down to the point they can be easily passed by cyclists.... I'm not sure how good an idea this is. Keeping in mind the average handling skill level of most cyclists, I can see more accidents as motorists (upset at slow movement), are now really competing for the same slivers of road as cyclists. Granted less peds and cyclists will be killed every year I think but I can more being injured.

    It might even have a congestion effect as some motorists might not even bother with the car in the city at all because it's too damned slow, it would be cool. I hope I'm just being cynical but I'd rather see more aware drivers than slow-mo madness ones. .02$

    40kph is the typical residential speed here in Toronto. 30 is mind numbingly slow in a car.

  9. #9
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer View Post
    I'm kind of on the fence about this as 30K is waaaaay to easy to hit on a bike. So we'd all be speeding as well. Forcing motorists to slow down to the point they can be easily passed by cyclists.... I'm not sure how good an idea this is. Keeping in mind the average handling skill level of most cyclists, I can see more accidents as motorists (upset at slow movement), are now really competing for the same slivers of road as cyclists. Granted less peds and cyclists will be killed every year I think but I can more being injured.

    It might even have a congestion effect as some motorists might not even bother with the car in the city at all because it's too damned slow, it would be cool. I hope I'm just being cynical but I'd rather see more aware drivers than slow-mo madness ones. .02$

    40kph is the typical residential speed here in Toronto. 30 is mind numbingly slow in a car.
    How about lowering the limits from 50 or 60 MPH, thats 80kph or 96kph... those are the posted speeds here on local arterials...


    A nice 35MPH or perhaps 50Kph would be nice.

  10. #10
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    On the in-the-city arterials, such as Lakeshore we have 60kph limit. Cars do go faster, but very few cyclists ride on it as there are paths along this route next to the water. City streets are generally about 40-50, with residentials down to 30 in some places. 90kph is the expressway into town, and the Parkway. Highways are 100-110kph... traveled at 120-140 generally. 50kph is a nice pass without getting blown over and a good sprint speed for a cyclist to hit... I can't see drivers being too thrilled with being told to travel the same speed as cyclists.

  11. #11
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer View Post
    On the in-the-city arterials, such as Lakeshore we have 60kph limit. Cars do go faster, but very few cyclists ride on it as there are paths along this route next to the water. City streets are generally about 40-50, with residentials down to 30 in some places. 90kph is the expressway into town, and the Parkway. Highways are 100-110kph... traveled at 120-140 generally. 50kph is a nice pass without getting blown over and a good sprint speed for a cyclist to hit... I can't see drivers being too thrilled with being told to travel the same speed as cyclists.

    But that is the result if cyclists "take the lane."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer View Post
    On the in-the-city arterials, such as Lakeshore we have 60kph limit. Cars do go faster, but very few cyclists ride on it as there are paths along this route next to the water. City streets are generally about 40-50, with residentials down to 30 in some places. 90kph is the expressway into town, and the Parkway.
    All those downtown drivers are making you soft. 60kph limit up here usually translates to 80-100 for the flow of unobstructed traffic. I'm talking Bayview, Finch, Leslie, Steeles.

  13. #13
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    Only if you are traveling slower than posted speed limit, which here is 40-ish...so it's doable. Taking the lane at the speed limit yeilds much less aggro.... imagine poking along at 30kph in your car and being passed by messengers and quicker commuters.

  14. #14
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    To be perfectly honest, who cares about car drivers?
    Not too much to say here

  15. #15
    Punk Rock Lives Roughstuff's Avatar
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    My feelings on the idea are also quite mixed. Perhaps a compromise would help. Reduce the speed limits on most of the city roads but the major arterials---routes in/out and across the city---should be raised. I don't think people will tolerate snake speeds in vehicles that are designed to safely travel at far greater speeds.

    Don't forget that when you are riding in your car, you can set a good example for other motorists by using a reasonable speed when it is called for, treating cyclists with courtesy and giving them (you) their proper space, etc. And if you go the speed limit, in many cases people behind you have no choice but to reduce their speed to yours as well.

    roughstuff
    Electric car sales are on fire! :)

  16. #16
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    ^^ I'd much rather have a faster more courteous driver than a hobbled/bitter dink behind the wheel^^

    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    All those downtown drivers are making you soft.
    Tell me about it... I don't get out of here too often, but I do like Leslie for the shoot-the-gutter training. As soon as you get out of the lower end of the city it all speeds up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roughstuff View Post

    Don't forget that when you are riding in your car, you can set a good example for other motorists by using a reasonable speed when it is called for, treating cyclists with courtesy and giving them (you) their proper space, etc. And if you go the speed limit, in many cases people behind you have no choice but to reduce their speed to yours as well.
    The intention of this post is honourable, but I have to say that, at least on a per-mile basis, I have a lot more people screaming, honking, and exhibiting generally threatening behavior when I'm driving a car vs riding a bike. I'm not sure "setting an example" is entirely possible in the context you describe.

    Of course with the windows rolled up and the radio on, these incidents are also a lot less memorable.

  18. #18
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    The intention of this post is honourable, but I have to say that, at least on a per-mile basis, I have a lot more people screaming, honking, and exhibiting generally threatening behavior when I'm driving a car vs riding a bike. I'm not sure "setting an example" is entirely possible in the context you describe.

    Of course with the windows rolled up and the radio on, these incidents are also a lot less memorable.
    I find I have no problem driving at or below the speed limit... with the windows rolled down. Although quite a few motorists feel they have to tailgate me. (as if THAT is going to make me go faster... )

  19. #19
    Senior Member OH306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I support both, much lower speed limits and higher fines and penalties. For first offense $1000, second $3000, 3rd loss of license for 10 years, and seizure of vehicle.
    Mandatory prison terms for causing an injury accident

    Speed limits of 25 and 15 in most places
    Be careful what you wish for, 30kph is 18mph. You probably ride your bike faster than that. Would you like to lose your bike and be fined thousands?

  20. #20
    Militant cyclist
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer View Post
    I'm kind of on the fence about this as 30K is waaaaay to easy to hit on a bike. [...] It might even have a congestion effect as some motorists might not even bother with the car in the city at all because it's too damned slow, it would be cool. [...] 40kph is the typical residential speed here in Toronto. 30 is mind numbingly slow in a car.
    This is within the _city_ of Dublin, which is a relatively small area compared to the suburbs. It is part of a general effort that has been going on for many years now to take motorized traffic out of the city and to slow down what remains; most of the centre has been made very difficult to get into if you are not a bus, taxi, or cycle, heavy trucks have been banned from the entire city from 7am-7pm, streets have been substantially narrowed (with pavements substantially widened, etc,) more have been pedestrianised or semi-pedestrianised.

    Overall it is all much better and very much a step in the right direction. You wouldn't really have much of an issue with a 30k bike limit in Dublin city centre, I guarantee you. To encourage more cycling, more work needs to be done on the suburbs however where the bulk of the population lives. Work on the weather would also help (it has been raining since June 10.)

  21. #21
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OH306 View Post
    Be careful what you wish for, 30kph is 18mph. You probably ride your bike faster than that. Would you like to lose your bike and be fined thousands?
    I don't speed now, when riding the car or bike. I wouldn't then. At the level of deaths in car collisions, I don't think it is unreasonable.
    I also support yearly licensing, eye, and reflex tests that are difficul to pass.
    Not too much to say here

  22. #22
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blorg1 View Post
    This is within the _city_ of Dublin, which is a relatively small area compared to the suburbs... Overall it is all much better and very much a step in the right direction....
    always good to hear from someone directly involved.

    Thanks!

  23. #23
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roughstuff View Post
    I don't think people will tolerate snake speeds in vehicles that are designed to safely travel at far greater speeds.
    But are they really safe at higher speeds? If you drive a car head on into a telephone pole at say 55 mph, will you be uninjured? If not, then they are NOT designed to travel safely at higher speeds.
    Not too much to say here

  24. #24
    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    18 mph sounds awfully slow for city traffic. I go faster than that most of the time myself.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    Speed limits of 25 and 15 in most places
    That's just insane. I don't want limits that low when I'm *biking.*

    That'll never happen, in any event. Completely unncesssary as well. Roads can be designed to safely accomodate vehicular traffic at the limits that are currently set. If your argument is that the 99% of traffic that is motorized should cut their speed in half to accomodate the 1% that isn't...good luck with that. You'll get us banned from roads before that happens. If your argument is that cars need to go 25 mph to accomodate bikes, then politicians will determine that we don't need to be there.

    Incidentally, it makes sense where they've done it, in extremely dense areas. But outside of that, it would be needless.

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