Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 24 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 584
  1. #26
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,052
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    if other cyclists regularily ride this road further to the right, joe, why is that position not considered practicable by you?

    and why not pull to the right to allow faster traffic to pass if the shoulder IS wide? versus making the traffic change lanes? i beleive jhon forestor suggests the shoulder as appropriate for VC riding at times when faster traffic is present.

    I'm just playing the devils advocate, I regularily ride the lane of high speed roads, but I'm also able to recognize safe road position without getting all caught up in the 'I drive my bike, i need to be in the travel lane' VC radicalization of bicycling.
    Well what he said was that the right turn lanes are used by cyclists... so the cyclists are pulling a last minute lane change from the right turn lane.

    Why can't motorists simply go around the cyclists by using the left straight through lane?

  2. #27
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,052
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hey Joejack... can you give us a google map location?

  3. #28
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
    My Bikes
    Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
    Posts
    7,906
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It is in the OP.
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  4. #29
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I dislike roads like these, because they require me to choose between multiple undesirable options: violating the traffic law by traveling straight in right-turn-only lanes, riding the lane line and experiencing potential close passes on both sides due to narrow lane width, or taking the narrow lane where traffic speeds and volumes are high. (I'll omit the option of not cycling.)

    This is one of those places where I'm tempted to look for an engineering solution that would provide a better option and less potential social friction. So what would such a solution be? Additional space to the left of the RTOLs in the form of a WOL or striped bike lane? And if the total right of way could not be widened, what then? Eliminate the right turn lanes, or as some people have shown in other threads, create a combined right-turn and bike lane with cyclists staying away from the curb to avoid right hooks?

    One good thing about actually cycling on unpleasant roads is that it encourages the government to actually think about how road design affects lawfully operating cyclists, rather than assuming that lawfully operating cyclists will simply go away or ought to act contrary to the law. A traffic ticket like this can be used to compel planners and engineers to do a better job of providing adequate overtaking space on important roads as well as compel bicyclist-friendly members of the city council (I'm sure you can find them) to direct the police department to better educate its officers about cyclists' rights on our roadways.

  5. #30
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ...or ticketing lawful cyclists.

    despite the politicalization of joe's lane choice, perhaps, if the rest of the cycling population that 'regularily' cycles this road in the shoulder/rto lanes are doing so, and likely doing so safely,

    what makes joe's lane position 'correct' versus the rest of the bicyclists? a wide, accomodating shoulder can be ridden in in a vehicular manner by vehicular cyclists....
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  6. #31
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
    My Bikes
    Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
    Posts
    7,906
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri View Post
    One good thing about actually cycling on unpleasant roads is that it encourages the government to actually think about how road design affects lawfully operating cyclists, rather than assuming that lawfully operating cyclists will simply go away or ought to act contrary to the law. A traffic ticket like this can be used to compel planners and engineers to do a better job of providing adequate overtaking space on important roads as well as compel bicyclist-friendly members of the city council (I'm sure you can find them) to direct the police department to better educate its officers about cyclists' rights on our roadways.
    I think the difference in peoples opinions has a lot to do with thier geographical
    location. Being familier with NC (I was 'sposed to move to Asheville), I think
    Cary is a little more receptive and open minded to the things you mention and thier
    population a little more tolerant of byclists over all. That area mentioned in the OP
    as are the surrounding areas in PA, areas that to me, are not freindly or open minded
    in that respect. Cycling in the Philly / Wilmington area one encounters a very
    aggresive and intolerant mindset. Would I try to convert these people on my
    daily commute ? Never, when I commuted in PA I counted my blessings just making
    it home in one piece, not being yelled at or suffering the 15 second honk ....
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  7. #32
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. when's your day in court, joe?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Reston, VA
    My Bikes
    2003 Giant OCR2
    Posts
    2,369
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ...or ticketing lawful cyclists.

    what makes joe's lane position 'correct' versus the rest of the bicyclists? a wide, accomodating shoulder can be ridden in in a vehicular manner by vehicular cyclists....
    ...until you get to an intersection, at which point you get to merge back into the lane, or try your luck with right-hooks. If the density of intersections is high, both are dangerous. If the density of traffic is high, the first is probably impossible.

    The only road where I ride on a shoulder like that is a parkway that has a 10 foot shoulder and intersections with a mile or more between them. But if I were to have to dart in and out of traffic in a 45 mph zone? Forget it.

  9. #34
    uberNEWB dzinehaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec
    My Bikes
    Haro V2 [rip / stolen], PEUGEOT '93 SELECT
    Posts
    528
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I hope you win, same stupid nonsensical law aplies here in Montreal Canada. I say save your life and rid in the middle of the lane behind a car in plain sight of its rear view mirror. As long as you are following traffic. I say those same people that are behind you and in such a rush are the same people that have no respect for cyclist because they themselves do not cycle. Its clear out here when you know a motorist is also a cyclist when then let you into traffic instead of trying to run you off the road because they feel you are slowing their life down. Man, people should enjoy life more. I really hope you win. Good luck and sggoodri gave a lot of useful info to help!!!

    I say better to stay alive and get a ticket you can fight then be dead on the right side of the road because of a motorist made law that does not keep a cyclist in mind.

    Also... What's the point of honking at a cyclist? You are more bound to cause an accident by frightening them then having them move over. If you are the person honking at the cyclist, you need to get off the road faster then the cyclist because you are more likely to hurt some one with your road rage.
    Be Happy, Live Life, Be Strong ~j.michaud / dzinehaus

  10. #35
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,974
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Good luck Joe!

    Here is a video of me riding by multiple RTOLs. Four in 1/2mi. Traffic here is generally moderate though (practically none in this video)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZoXNbxXgc

    I provide this to perhaps provide a rider perspective visual of what multiple RTOLs look like.

    I stay in the thru lane as otherwise would be illegal. Not only that, but in the morning when I ride this stretch I find about a 50/50 split between drivers making a RT vs going straight, so either position would 'delay' a motorist.

    Al

  11. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    You’re forgetting a reasonable safety bubble to the left of a car. There is no overlapping or lopping off of safety margins, there is always something to your right and left you don't want to hit. AASHTO has already workout out reasonable safety margin distance; for motorists the minimal width is 10 feet and for cyclists it is 4 feet so therefore 14 feet is the minimal lane width a car and motorists can safely share.
    Yep, I realized I forgot that safety bubble to the left first thing this morning. Thanks for sharing about AASHTO.

  12. #37
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Classic. Great stuff from Stephen. Be sure and have it all with you, including the photos that others have recommended, ideally with a measuring tape showing the actual width of the lane (measured from center-of-stripe to center-of-stripe). That, coupled with the Goodridge diagrams should do it.

    Having said that, when traffic volumes and speed differentials are high enough, and the right turn lane is relatively unoccupied, I do use it for through travel, and would if I were driving a relatively slow motor vehicle (like a tractor) too. But, the law does not compel you to do that, and arguably technically forbids you. Speaking of that, you should be ready with copies of the DE laws that prohibit through travel in turn lanes and the one that says all laws apply to cyclists too. In other words, you have to show that riding anywhere else was either not a legal or safe option, and where you were riding was the only legal AND safe option.

    Finally, I'm so glad this happened! Frankly, I keep hoping some cop stops me for doing something like this, but they never do. I guess the police around here understand cyclist rights better than over there. Some months ago I conveyed the story of the cop who pulled over a motorist who honked at me, and lectured him about cyclists having the same rights as motorists. The cop that pulled you over would never have those words flow out of his mouth, but maybe he will after this experience. I hope he shows up for your appearance! Good luck!

  13. #38
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,052
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Classic. Great stuff from Stephen. Be sure and have it all with you, including the photos that others have recommended, ideally with a measuring tape showing the actual width of the lane (measured from center-of-stripe to center-of-stripe). That, coupled with the Goodridge diagrams should do it.

    Having said that, when traffic volumes and speed differentials are high enough, and the right turn lane is relatively unoccupied, I do use it for through travel,
    But this basically violates the tenants of vehicular cycling and destination positioning... ARRRRRRRG!!!!

  14. #39
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
    My Bikes
    Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
    Posts
    7,906
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Finally, I'm so glad this happened!
    ??
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  15. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,851
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    First off, thanks to all of those who have wished me good luck in fighting this. Some great suggestions have been made as to what information will be helpful to have with me in court and I REALLY appreciate the effort in support of me.

    Before I take on the task of responding to all of these posts (I've been away from a computer all day), I'll do what any proper cyclist would do after receiving a BS violation such as this and post the scanned ticket (personal information editted out):


  16. #41
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    My Bikes
    Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
    Posts
    4,274
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    But this basically violates the tenants of vehicular cycling and destination positioning... ARRRRRRRG!!!!
    He's still alive too.
    Just Peddlin' Around

  17. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,851
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    maybe you'll become the poster boy, a kin to road-sy parks for taking the lane in Delaware, joe!!
    Bek, it's comments like this that keep me from putting you on ignore I've been laughing to myself about this quote since I read it.

  18. #43
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Newark, CA. San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    6,191
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Was the officer saying you should go straight ahead from a right turn only lane? Isn't that advocating you to violate the vehicle code? He'd then be telling you to violate the same vehicle code that he used to write you a ticket.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

  19. #44
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,974
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A couple wonderings...

    I wonder if you had been riding in the right tire track (i.e. a few feet from lane line edge) but still in a 11' lane (which would have caused same passing delay as if you were centered) if the officer would have still pulled you over. After all you would have caused the officer delay, yet you would have been then as close as practable to the right edge of thru lane.

    I wonder what other 'delayed' motorists thought when you were pulled over? Probably wrongly re-enforced to them that cyclists should not be on the road and the 'law was on their side.'

    Al

  20. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Be sure and have it all with you, including the photos that others have recommended, ideally with a measuring tape showing the actual width of the lane (measured from center-of-stripe to center-of-stripe). That, coupled with the Goodridge diagrams should do it.... But, the law does not compel you to do that, and arguably technically forbids you. Speaking of that, you should be ready with copies of the DE laws that prohibit through travel in turn lanes and the one that says all laws apply to cyclists too. In other words, you have to show that riding anywhere else was either not a legal or safe option, and where you were riding was the only legal AND safe option....Good luck!
    What he said.

  21. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,851
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Underbridge View Post
    Have you ever ridden to the right in that area? If so, what was the result? (I'll go out on a limb and guess it involved some near-misses). If that's the case, tell the court you tried to share the lane but found it dangerous, so you took the lane. How crowded is it on that road - ie, would a driver have any significant problem passing you? If you can show that you've made an effort to find a less-trafficked route and you're riding on it, that might help your case too.
    I have tried riding everywhere from the middle of the shoulder/right turn lane, just to the right of the stripe, on the lane line, the far right of the lane, the right tire track, and the center of the lane. Using the center of the lane has resulted in an almost complete removal of close passes, second only to riding in the middle of the shoulder/right turn lane due to the width and the fact that I'm' now blocking the whole turn lane. Riding anywhere else has increased the number of close passes I receive, with the worst position being the lane line (where I often experienced close passes on the left and right at the same time.

    In terms of smooth traffic flow, again riding in the lane is second only to riding in the shoulder/right turn lane ASSUMING no one is turning right. Throw in a few right turners (at a good number of the intersections, you can count on at least 1 in 5 vehicles in the right hand lane turning) and all hell breaks loose as people try to speed up in the right lane to get around you and other assorted acts of ignorance (I've found starting an actual right turn from the right hand lane greatly reduces the chances of this happening). When riding centered in the lane I am often (once or twice daily) passed on the right by impatient motorists but the majority change lanes and pass me like any other slow moving vehicle (which, if you count large trucks pulling away from red lights, there are many that use this road). In any other lane position, I would often find myself causing either the same delay as I would when riding centered or delaying both the right lane and the turn lane as motorists were unsure whether to pass, change lanes, or wait behind me. This confusion makes me feel much less comfortable than the much more predictable behavior exhibited when I ride centered.

    The road is generally busy as LEM has pointed out, but not nearly as bad as route 202 and route 1 in PA that I use to complete my commute. I have encountered PA state cops on those roads doing the same thing I'm doing on Naamans Road and none of them have even flinched. I'd say the longest it has ever taken someone to get around me (who hasn't sat there intentionally) has been about a minute. That only happens between 5-6pm when the road is the busiest it will be all day.

    I've been using this road a lot more recently because of construction on my normal commute route. My other options to avoid this road both include 40-45mph 2 lane roads without shoulders that see a lot of traffic that's avoiding the traffic on the route I take. The route I take has a passing lane and a few sections of useable shoulder though which make it much more convenients for me and everyone else in my experience.

  22. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,851
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by -=£em in Pa=- View Post
    In rare moment I will side with the policeman.
    That you were taking a whole lane of Naamans Rd.
    in a high traffic period of time (always) is beyond
    any scope of reasoning available to me, and I have a
    pretty vivid imagination.
    And really, I mean this with no disrespect or antagonism,
    but this is an example of why there is such a great divide
    amoungst cyclists and cyclist Vs. cars. The scenerio you
    mention is not one I would do under any circumstance.
    But, then again, I wouldnt ride Naamans Rd. Period.
    From a policmans point of veiw, a situation is being created
    where drivers are getting angry. Angry drivers do stupid
    stuff.

    ..::EDIT::..
    I DO NOT agree with a fine for this.
    I'm glad you posted this because it is a great representation of attitude of motorists on this road who choose to "talk" to me. It's caused me great frustration as well as given me many a laugh at how people react to a cyclist simply using this road like any other vehicle would. I don't receive the same flak from motorists on any other road in the area, even routes 202 and 1 (both similar but busier roads than Naamans). My current hypothesis for explaining the situation is that neither 202 or 1 receives any significant cyclist traffic whereas Naamans does, and the cyclist traffic that uses Naamans ALL rides in the shoulder/right turn lanes. The precendent set by other cyclists, and now added to by this incident, has entitled motorists to believe that the traffic lanes on Naamans are off limits to cyclists. If this ticket helps me do something about that attitude then I'm really happy I received it.

  23. #48
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Throw a few printouts of post #46 into the folder you take to court, Joe.... It might be useful in case you get nervous and forget some of that. Maybe the judge will allow and friend can video tape the proceeding? What an awesome youtube post that would make. Or at least maybe you can leave a request with the court steno to mail you a copy of the transcript?

  24. #49
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    20,622
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally Posted by Helmet Head Finally, I'm so glad this happened!
    Quote Originally Posted by -=£em in Pa=- View Post
    ??
    No ??? if you have read that poster's ghoulish "told you so" speculation posts while the cyclists' bodies are still warm.

  25. #50
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I'm glad you posted this because it is a great representation of attitude of motorists on this road who choose to "talk" to me. It's caused me great frustration as well as given me many a laugh at how people react to a cyclist simply using this road like any other vehicle would. I don't receive the same flak from motorists on any other road in the area, even routes 202 and 1 (both similar but busier roads than Naamans). My current hypothesis for explaining the situation is that neither 202 or 1 receives any significant cyclist traffic whereas Naamans does, and the cyclist traffic that uses Naamans ALL rides in the shoulder/right turn lanes. The precendent set by other cyclists, and now added to by this incident, has entitled motorists to believe that the traffic lanes on Naamans are off limits to cyclists. If this ticket helps me do something about that attitude then I'm really happy I received it.
    Note the words at the top of the citation:

    DE 21 $ 4196 000A M - PERSON OPERATING BICYCLE IS TO RIDE TO RIGHT OF ROADWAY
    Whose words are those? Those of the officer? Or official "citation" words?

    I mean, "is to ride to right of roadway" implies not on roadway, doesn't it? I mean, what if it is said, "ride to right of tree". Anyway, that' seems to be a blatant misinterpretation of 4196.

Page 2 of 24 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •