Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-01-03, 09:12 AM   #1
Dannihilator
User Title
Thread Starter
 
Dannihilator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Annandale, New Jersey
Bikes: 2014 Surly Steamroller, 1989 Nishiki Altron
Posts: 19,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Driver shoots cyclist.

Bicyclist Shot In Road-Rage Confrontation With Motorist

http://www.msnbc.com/local/wlky/a1722190.asp?cp1=1

LOUISVILLE, 6:14 p.m. EDT July 31, 2003 - A case of road rage left a bicyclist recovering from a gunshot wound, according to police.

The shooting happened Thursday afternoon on Baxter Avenue near the Mid City Mall, WLKY NewsChannel 32 reported.
According to police, Larry Watts was driving his car when he got into a heated exchange with bicyclist Richard Burgin Jr.
Watts and Burgin stopped on the side of the road, and Burgin threw a punch at Watts, police said.
Watts responded by pulling out a gun and firing at Burgin, according to police.
Watts reportedly headed for the mall, but then left the area. He later called the police and was taken into custody, NewsChannel 32 reported.
Watts was charged with first-degree assault.
Burgin's injuries are not life-threatening, according to NewsChannel 32.


It's starting to get violent now. Think I'll go ride in the woods.
Dannihilator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 09:14 AM   #2
Guest
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
First degree assult?

It ought to be attempted murder, man! What the heck is going on out there in Kentucky?

It's not go ride in the woods, it's arm yourselves before going for a ride....

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 09:41 AM   #3
Max
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by danka24

Burgin threw a punch at Watts,
Why?

It does not sound good to me.
Max is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 09:48 AM   #4
chewa
The Flying Scot
 
chewa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North Queensferry Scotland and London (and France)
Bikes: Custom (Colin Laing) 531c fast tourer/audax, 1964 Flying Scot Continental, 1995 Cinelli Supercorsa, Holdsworth Mistral single speed, Dahon Speed 6 (folder), Micmo Sirocco and a few more
Posts: 1,902
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank goodness I cycle in a country where I don't even have to consider that a motorist would have a gun.
__________________
plus je vois les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens

1985 Sandy Gilchrist-Colin Laing built 531c Audax/fast tourer.
1964 Flying Scot Continental (531)
1995 Cinelli Supercorsa (Columbus SLX)
1980s Holdsworth Mistral fixed (531)
2005 Dahon Speed 6 (folder)
(YES I LIKE STEEL)
2008 Viking Saratoga tandem
2008 Micmo Sirocco Hybrid (aluminium!)
2012 BTwin Rockrider 8.1
chewa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 10:03 AM   #5
chip
Senior Member
 
chip's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think we all need to bring out bicycles out in the open even if were just walking them...That way our authorities will realize that bicycles arn't going to go away...and that our society had better get use to it..and provide for it...maybe some day all the gas will run out and we'll get lucky?
chip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 10:06 AM   #6
Rich Clark
A Heart Needs a Home
 
Rich Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Bikes:
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Drivers yell and curse and shake their fists at each other all the time. Usually that's as far as it goes, because they're insulated by their metal cages and don't consider the other motorist to be a real human being, just an abstraction labeled "that a**hole in the Ford" or whatever.

It's a state of mind that drivers enter. They don't see people out there, they see obstructions.

Cyclists, as correct as they might be when asserting their rights to act as a vehicle, would do well to remember that they lack the metal cage, but that the drivers are still in their "you're not real, you're just in my way" trance.

In this case, it's entirely possible that the cyclist fell into a rage of his own. I can identify. When we get cut off, right-hooked, brushed-by, or otherwise ill-used by drivers, it's natural to yell, to throw the bird, to want to somehow "teach them a lesson" so they won't do that to other cyclists, to demonstrate to them how wrong they are.

That's cager thinking. That's the same attitude the drivers have. We see the car, and not the human inside.

IMO, the correct emotional response to a driver who can't share the road is not anger, but pity. But keep it to yourself.

RichC
__________________
Training: 2002 Fuji Roubaix Pro (105 triple)
Commuting/Daytripping: 2001 Airborne Carpe Diem (Ultegra/XTR, touring wheels)
Commuting/Touring: 2000 Novara Randonee (Sora/Tiagra/LX, fenders, lights)
Rich Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 12:31 PM   #7
wabbit
Sprockette
 
wabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 5,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Once again, I'm glad I don't live in the USA. Too many stupid people, too many guns, not enough bikes.
__________________
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. That's great...if you want to attract vermin.
wabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 12:59 PM   #8
rockymtn_girl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by wabbit
Once again, I'm glad I don't live in the USA. Too many stupid people, too many guns, not enough bikes.
Riiiight......like we don't have our share of stupid people in this country as well.
rockymtn_girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 01:02 PM   #9
KrisA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Regina, SK, CA
Bikes: 2002 Rocky HT
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by rockymtn_girl
Riiiight......like we don't have our share of stupid people in this country as well.
Wise words from one from Alberta...
KrisA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 01:42 PM   #10
Chris L
Every lane is a bike lane
 
Chris L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia - passionfruit capital of the universe!
Bikes:
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Koffee Brown

It's not go ride in the woods, it's arm yourselves before going for a ride....
And hope that the other guy misses when he shoots first? Or maybe shoot them on suspicion? Sounds to me like a bit of a vicious circle here. How about simply not getting into the confrontation to begin with?

Quote:
Originally posted by Max
{Quote**
Originally posted by danka24

Burgin threw a punch at Watts,
{/Quote**

Why?

It does not sound good to me.
Exactly. While I don't believe the driver had any right to shoot him, I have to ask the question of why the cyclist in this case had the right to throw a punch to begin with. After all, if the driver had thrown the punch, we'd have 100 replies to this thread saying "what an *******". In this case it was the cyclist who threw the punch, and everyone seems to be overlooking that fact.

Yes, the driver was wrong to shoot him, but that doesn't make the initial aggression right.

Quote:
Originally posted by chip
I think we all need to bring out bicycles out in the open even if were just walking them...That way our authorities will realize that bicycles arn't going to go away...and that our society had better get use to it..and provide for it...
Critical mass has been trying that for years, and it hasn't worked yet. And what exactly do we expect the "authorities" to do about it? They can't outlaw stupidity. It's time to promote cycling as an activity using non-confrontational means rather than trying to force everyone to take up a bike, but that's another thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Clark

In this case, it's entirely possible that the cyclist fell into a rage of his own. I can identify. When we get cut off, right-hooked, brushed-by, or otherwise ill-used by drivers, it's natural to yell, to throw the bird, to want to somehow "teach them a lesson" so they won't do that to other cyclists, to demonstrate to them how wrong they are.

That's cager thinking. That's the same attitude the drivers have. We see the car, and not the human inside.

IMO, the correct emotional response to a driver who can't share the road is not anger, but pity. But keep it to yourself.
At last, a sensible reply as opposed to all the emotional ones that have been trotted out so far. As I said above, the smartest option here would have been to avoid the confrontation to begin with. If the driver's actions really bother you that much, call the cops and let them deal with it. Otherwise, just ignore it. Getting emotional about something like this with people who just don't care is not going to do anything to solve the problem.
__________________
"I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
"We invite everyone to question the entire culture we take for granted." - Manic Street Preachers.
My blog.
My bike tours. Japan tour page under construction.
Chris L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 07:02 PM   #11
wabbit
Sprockette
 
wabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 5,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We have PLENTY of morons here in canada. It's just that it's harder for them to get their hands on deadly weapons. Stupid people are dangerous enough without being armed.
__________________
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. That's great...if you want to attract vermin.
wabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 07:38 PM   #12
randya
Senior Member
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by wabbit
We have PLENTY of morons here in canada. It's just that it's harder for them to get their hands on deadly weapons. Stupid people are dangerous enough without being armed.
It's not necessary to arm the morons with guns to make them dangerous--they're all already armed with motor vehicles--each and every one of which is a weapon of mass destruction in my book.

And, by the way, I did read a news story several years back about a cyclist is Arizona--that's the wild west to all you easterners out there--who rode with a big ol' six shooter in a holster on his belt where all the motorists could clearly see it--and the motorists reportedly all gave him lots of distance and respect when following or passing...
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 07:54 PM   #13
cyclezealot
Senior Member
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike
Posts: 13,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Randa. Having a gun strapped about my waist as I bike would give me no security. A motorist's hand can become free a little more readily. Showing a visible gun, I suspect would more likely infuriate the already irrational.
cyclezealot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 07:56 PM   #14
randya
Senior Member
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not necessarily recommending displaying a gun, just reporting on something I read a while back.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 08:07 PM   #15
Aloner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I often arm myself when I go biking.


I was once a boy scout and still follow the motto "be prepared" to this day.
Aloner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 09:44 PM   #16
yikes
Senior Member
 
yikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris L


Yes, the driver was wrong to shoot him, but that doesn't make the initial aggression right.


I agree with Chris..... the guy should have never tried to punch him. Sure, I get very angry when I'm on my bike (part of the reason why I like it), but I'd never be stupid enough to punch someone. But I guess we all make mistakes.
yikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-03, 11:44 PM   #17
Devil Dog
Senior Member
 
Devil Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central New York
Bikes:
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had to respond to this thread. I carry a small revolver when cycling and most everywhere else and am licensed to do so. I was also a combat engineer in the United States Marine Corp with extensive firearms training. A gun is a tool like a screwdriver, hammer, etc. that has its place with proper and safe use. Its a personal decision to arm yourself or not. I too would prefer we as a society could all sit around the fire and sing Kum-bah-yaH but it is not a reality. The reality is we do have predatory criminals and other deviants that we must protect ourselves from. In this case this car driver had no proper or legal reason to shoot this cyclist, even if he was punched first. There is something called disparity of force when dealing with a possible deadly confrontation. In short it means that you must take a beating to the point of fearing for your life and ALSO be unable to flee the area BEFORE you are justified in using deadly force. Basically, you must be beaten to the point of almost death before you could shoot someone in a fistfight. Now if the cyclist would have been armed with an impact weapon; rock, tirepump, etc and attacked the motorist first he would have been making a deadly mistake that would have justified deadly force IF and this is a big IF- the motorist was trapped and could not escape the area. If the motorist stopped his car to initiate a confrontation this motorist should go to jail for a long time IMO. The cyclist hitting the motorist first is wrong also and should illustrate that it is always best to avoid confrontation-especially today in the USA as you never know what you're getting yourself into. I've had people cut me off, give me the finger, tailgate me etc in a car while armed and would never even consider bringing a firearm into the picture. If I was trapped and cornered however and could not escape or was attacked by someone else using deadly force I would do whatever it took to assure I went home to my wife and children that night. I ride on the Erie Canal path here in upstate NY and we've had woman bike riders attacked and raped and even murdered. The Canal path runs from end to end of the state and is a major biking thouroughfare. It is a potentially dangerous place that I would not ever ride without being armed personally, especially with my wife with me. There are some bad people out there. Some people are just plain idiots and you can't legislate that out of existance.
Devil Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 01:01 AM   #18
uciflylow
Look Ma, NO hands!
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UC Tennessee
Bikes:
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ditto, Devil Dog

Couldn't have said it better myself!!
uciflylow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 06:25 AM   #19
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 9,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris L
the smartest option here would have been to avoid the confrontation to begin with. If the driver's actions really bother you that much, call the cops and let them deal with it. Otherwise, just ignore it.
In any confrontation I've had, I've simply said, "I'm just following the law" (a good reason to ride lawfully) then, I pull out my cell phone and suggest we call the police so he can straighten the situation out right now. This usually stops things.
closetbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 06:42 AM   #20
DnvrFox
Banned.
 
DnvrFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Bikes:
Posts: 20,916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In Colorado, our drivers "shoot to kill" and did a couple of years ago in a bike-auto confrontation.

http://www.bikeleague.org/mediacenter/medprs20.htm
DnvrFox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 08:45 AM   #21
cyclezealot
Senior Member
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike
Posts: 13,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Last year in nearby Escondodo a passing motorist shot a cyclist in the foot. The incdent was totally unprovoked. The cyclist was like a sitting duck in a shooting gallery.
Unless cyclists develope some sort of high tek. rapid response retalitory device similiar to an anti ballistic missile system, I just do not see how guns makes one feel more secure.
Maybe if you ride the back country of Alaska where you might surprise a bear first- that might work. As for me the presence of guns adds to my sense of insecurity any day. In Gun confrontations the element of surprise works against the victim; unfortunately too many in that category include police officiers.
cyclezealot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 12:02 PM   #22
wabbit
Sprockette
 
wabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 5,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In an ideal world, everyone would be a perfect driver. And everyone who owned a gun would be a nice responsible gun owner, there would never be any accidental shootings or road rage. However, the murder rates and death stats show that this is not the case. Mind you, the idea of the cell phone and suggesting we call the cops- that's a good idea.
__________________
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. That's great...if you want to attract vermin.
wabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 02:37 PM   #23
Chris L
Every lane is a bike lane
 
Chris L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia - passionfruit capital of the universe!
Bikes:
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by cyclezealot
Last year in nearby Escondodo a passing motorist shot a cyclist in the foot. The incdent was totally unprovoked. The cyclist was like a sitting duck in a shooting gallery.
Unless cyclists develope some sort of high tek. rapid response retalitory device similiar to an anti ballistic missile system, I just do not see how guns makes one feel more secure.
Any sort of retaliatory device is just that, retaliatory. This is the problem. It isn't going to prevent the initial act of aggression, so your options are to either avoid the conflict altogether, or just hope the aggressive driver misses for long enough for you to get your retaliation in. The third (less palatable option) is to start shooting people on suspicion, it's probably the only thing that might prevent this sort of thing, but I think I'd rather quit riding altogether than go down that path.

As far as the unprovoked attacks go, these happens surprisingly rarely, and in probably 99,999 out of 100,000 cases will generally just involve abuse or something relatively harmless at first, before escalating. The key here is not allowing them to escalate in the first instance. This is why I'd rather deal with the cops than the driver.
__________________
"I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
"We invite everyone to question the entire culture we take for granted." - Manic Street Preachers.
My blog.
My bike tours. Japan tour page under construction.
Chris L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 07:11 PM   #24
orguasch
riding a Pinarello Prince
 
orguasch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Downtown Toronto,Canada
Bikes: Pinarello, Prince and an FP5
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aloner
I often arm myself when I go biking.


I was once a boy scout and still follow the motto "be prepared" to this day.
that is another one that i like, but out here in Toronto, when a person has a Gun or a weapon reported to the Police, the Police will come down on you like a "Plaque"
__________________
"Racso", the well oiled machine;)
orguasch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-03, 07:12 PM   #25
orguasch
riding a Pinarello Prince
 
orguasch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Downtown Toronto,Canada
Bikes: Pinarello, Prince and an FP5
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
and as far as having stupid people here in T.O. we have lots of this here in Parliament Hill,
__________________
"Racso", the well oiled machine;)
orguasch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:11 AM.