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  1. #1
    On my TARDIScycle! KingTermite's Avatar
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    Links about helmet safety?

    My g/f's sister is allowing her 14 year old son ride his bike to school without a helmet. Law states children must wear helmets until age of 13, but not required by law after that age.

    She (my g/f) would like to "have a talk" with her sister.

    I see the stickied helmet thread, but its 81 pages long and as old as it is, half of links in there may be dead by now.

    Does anybody have any good links to point out some statistics or anything similar to help show her sister why the boy should be wearing a helmet?

    thanks in advance
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

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    Senior Member allan_dunlop's Avatar
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    Links about helmet safety?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    Does anybody have any good links to point out some statistics or anything similar to help show her sister why the boy should be wearing a helmet?

    thanks in advance
    I like the demonstration approach. Something I've found works well is what I use when I'm presenting to kids at school.

    I'll kneel down on the auditorium floor, and ask what it'd be like if I whacked my head on the ground from that distance. And from the height of a bike. And from the height of a bike at ten miles an hour.

    Then I ask them to think about the difference between the gym floor and the street or a curb. They get it.

    Helmets are a touchy issue with me. Too much of our government's 'support' of cycling education is "wear your helmet" and little else.

    The British Medical Association put out an excellent report several years ago that concluded one is at much greater risk of a head injury traveling in a vehicle without a helmet than while riding a bike.

    I have great memories as a kid (actually, up until I went to university, when helmets became more widely available) of riding with no lid. But I still wouldn't want my head to introduce my head to asphalt.

    Oh, and suggest she ask her son to explain the difference between a 13-year-old head and a 14-year-old one.

    Allan

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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    It would be great demonstration if somehow a realistic representation could be shown to how brain injury occurs. Unfortunately, it just shows something we already know. Being hit on the noggin hurts.

    There are some good points of view and good examinations of the science of helmets out there on the web.

    One place to start would be wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet

    I think the first page I read about helmets was on Ken Kifers site

    http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/mhls.htm

    and that linked me to an opinion page that I thought had decent reasoning

    http://www.daclarke.org/AltTrans/helmet.html

    always concerned with good, easy to understand pages in trying to ride in a more responsible (and less likely to be hit) manner, I read the "How Not To Get Hit by Cars" page, and wouldn't you know it, that had a side page on helmets too

    http://www.bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html

    but I think one of the more comprehensive sites on helmets is

    http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/

    and

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

    many (if not all) of these pages have other links that are worth checking out and it's quite overwhelming to take everything in quickly

    another opinion page I've read that deals with the nature of the argument and the way an argument is presented and how that shows the merit of the argument is

    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki..._helmet_debate

    one of the reasons I mentioned Allens post is because of this page

    http://members.pcug.org.au/~psvansch/crag/h-i-mech.htm

    in it, it explains the science of brain injury learned through experiments with live monkeys. Dropping a fruit in and outside of a helmet to see the splatter is dramatic, but doesn't really represent what happens to people when hit with a helmet on. Even the testing procedures only involve a headform (not the same thing as a skull or how a brain would be damaged - or not - in the skull or how the inclusion of a body attached to the headform/skull) would affect the damage.

    A report prepared by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau states that research on foam liners from fatal accidents showed little or no evidence of impact damage and that some research reported that the human skull distorted rather than the hard stiff foam liner, resulting in brain damage or death.

    The ABC program, The New Inventors, has an entry for a different type of helmet that addresss a helmet researchers fiding after collisions with the current design of helmet. Don Morgan "discovered bone fragments, fluid and teeth embedded into the foam but the liners showed little or no evidence of damage"

    The phillips helmet

    http://www.phillipshelmets.co.uk/

    has a design that could well address other areas of concern where the most devastating types of injury are. Reading that site is worthwhile too.

    The BHSI site is good in many ways and has lots of information but it is just far too biased to be read with anything other than a wary eye.

  5. #5
    On my TARDIScycle! KingTermite's Avatar
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    Thanks for some linkage (and idea) help all.

    to Pete Fagerlin - I really didn't want to start the debate over helmet wearing. People who are for non-helmet riding can ride happily and hopefully without injury (and just ignore this thread please). I only want links to help explain to her why *I* support riding with helmets.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

  6. #6
    hill hater nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    Thanks for some linkage (and idea) help all.

    to Pete Fagerlin - I really didn't want to start the debate over helmet wearing. People who are for non-helmet riding can ride happily and hopefully without injury (and just ignore this thread please). I only want links to help explain to her why *I* support riding with helmets.
    Why go to the parents at all when trying to get a child to put on a helmet? What i mean is if you can not convince the parent to talk to her son then go to the sun directly explain why helmets are important etc. Maybe you and your gf could chip in and buy him a bmx/skater type helmet vs the mtb/road bike style and play the "coolness factor" card. kids even 14 years old still tend to do what they see their role models doing. If hes in to bmx races on tv shell out the cash for a helmet like they have.

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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    ...Does anybody have any good links to point out some statistics or anything similar to help show her sister why the boy should be wearing a helmet?

    thanks in advance

    sorry, I missed that. I thought you wanted a balanced, fair examination of the subject.

    There are other links that are out there for that, but I wonder how much a 14 year old is going to listen to, or if a girlfriends sister might have a different perspective that might not appreciate too much input on considering it might move on into the "I'll raise my child that way I want" territory.

    BHSI had a suggestion that a teen should not be allowed to ride if they won't wear a helmet, is that more what you're looking for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    My g/f's sister is allowing her 14 year old son ride his bike to school without a helmet. Law states children must wear helmets until age of 13, but not required by law after that age.

    She (my g/f) would like to "have a talk" with her sister.
    Since the statistical evidence is largely ambiguous, perhaps your girlfriend should keep quiet. (Yes, I know how difficult that is for some people.)

  9. #9
    Senior Member maximushq2's Avatar
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    Yeah maybe the only way to get the kid to wear one is to let him pick out the coolest one himself and buy it for him. Kids aren't likely to wear something that they think will make them look uncool.

  10. #10
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    Thanks for some linkage (and idea) help all.

    to Pete Fagerlin - I really didn't want to start the debate over helmet wearing...
    in Pete's defense, I don't think it's too off a comment that a thread posted in this way is going to open a can of worms. Your request was asking for one side of a topic. The other side is going to respond. Heck, even asking for unbiased links in the center of the topic is going to generate lots of responses from one side or another.

  11. #11
    On my TARDIScycle! KingTermite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    Why go to the parents at all when trying to get a child to put on a helmet? What i mean is if you can not convince the parent to talk to her son then go to the sun directly explain why helmets are important etc. Maybe you and your gf could chip in and buy him a bmx/skater type helmet vs the mtb/road bike style and play the "coolness factor" card. kids even 14 years old still tend to do what they see their role models doing. If hes in to bmx races on tv shell out the cash for a helmet like they have.
    Funny...right after I posted this morning I started thinking that exact same thought. We should talk to the boy himself. He's actually a pretty grounded kid and could probably look at the topic objectively. FL law states that up to age 13, one must wear helmet, but not mandatory after that. So, I'm sure the kid already has a helmet that he's been wearing up until his recent birthday.


    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    in Pete's defense, I don't think it's too off a comment that a thread posted in this way is going to open a can of worms. Your request was asking for one side of a topic. The other side is going to respond. Heck, even asking for unbiased links in the center of the topic is going to generate lots of responses from one side or another.
    Yes, I understand that and expected some "other side" backlash, I was only pointing out that I wasn't "trying to open a can of worms".....that's troll behavior. I only want to help get data to get the kid to wear a helmet.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

  12. #12
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    ... I was only pointing out that I wasn't "trying to open a can of worms".....that's troll behavior. I only want to help get data to get the kid to wear a helmet.
    ah, but some would view trying to find links for one side of a contentious argument trolling.

    At any rate, considering this is an advocacy forum, you have to consider that some would consider this advice, anti-advocacy because it implies that cyclists need to take additional precautions that others, who are at equal risk don't, and post opposing links and views.

    Some may also say it's far more productive and advocacy-positive to have cyclist know and follow good riding advice to avoid collisions and accidents in the first place, rather than insist on wearing a helmet and avoiding the issue of riding properly. This is something Allan alluded to in his post.

    I think I've descibed the links I provided and the first link, by it's nature, is neutral in it's information
    Last edited by closetbiker; 08-30-07 at 02:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    The BHSI site is good in many ways and has lots of information but it is just far too biased to be read with anything other than a wary eye.


    Your anti-helmet bias permeates every post. The OP clearly asked for links to sites that would help the OP present an argument for using helmets. Of course, you steered the OP to anti-helmet sites, and then had the audacity to claim that they're "unbiased," unlike that mean old BHSI site...

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    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    I thought you wanted a balanced, fair examination of the subject.
    Best for you not to post on the subject then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flargle View Post
    Since the statistical evidence is largely ambiguous, perhaps your girlfriend should keep quiet. (Yes, I know how difficult that is for some people.)
    But,, but,,,,

    -if my opinions are better than what the patents know, then I should get to tell their kid what to do!
    ~

  16. #16
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post


    Your anti-helmet bias permeates every post. The OP clearly asked for links to sites that would help the OP present an argument for using helmets. Of course, you steered the OP to anti-helmet sites, and then had the audacity to claim that they're "unbiased," unlike that mean old BHSI site...
    your ignorance on the topic and reliance on emotional, baseless harassment reveals a certain bias and incomprehension in itself.

    the readers can decide for themselves what they want to learn or what maters to themselves on their own. I can't really see a reasonable person taking your post to heart. I think it would only attract a "certain" type. Not someone who would be worth wasting much time on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    your ignorance on the topic and reliance on emotional, baseless harassment reveals a certain bias and incomprehension in itself.

    the readers can decide for themselves what they want to learn or what maters to themselves on their own. I can't really see a reasonable person taking your post to heart. I think it would only attract a "certain" type. Not someone who would be worth wasting much time on.
    Sorry, the OP asked for links to pro-helmet arguments. In your eagerness to proselytize against helmets, you overlooked what he was asking for, and steered him towards anti-helmet sites.

    It was you who exhibited the bias.

    As far as my "ignorance" on the topic, you're apparently basing that statement on the fact that unlike you, I am not posting anti-helmet nonsense when I comment on helmets. Or do you have something more substantive to offer as proof of my "ignorance" and my "reliance on emotional, baseless harassment"*?

    No, probably not.




    *Note that what you call "harassment" has consisted of me providing proof that you made a nonsensical claim about helmets, when you were doing your best to pretend that you hadn't over-reached and made that nonsensical claim.

  18. #18
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    You argue like a grade-schooler.

    People can read and can make up thier own minds whats what.

    You know I've worn a helmet longer than you, and I also have campained for helmet use as well as educated children in bike safety classes to wear them.

    I quoted from the site you listed advice given on it and even mentioned that site is good in many ways.

    I just want to know, how is it being anti-helmet is learning and developing a deeper understanding on the topic?

    You can bury your head if you want, but some people, sometimes, want to know a little more, and there's been a few sites linked here if people want to learn a little.

    Maybe people want a choice, based on their own informed decision, rather than being told what to do. Maybe what goes on between a parent and a child should be between them.
    Last edited by closetbiker; 08-30-07 at 09:36 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    You argue like a grade-schooler.
    Closetbiker, I have never seen anybody evade their own statements the way you do. I have never seen anybody pretend they said "B" when they really said "A," the way you do. And when I point out what should be obvious, you just continue to deny, deny, deny that you said it, even when it's right there in quotes for all the world to see.

    And you say that I argue like a grade schooler?

    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    People can read and can make up thier own minds whats what.

    You know I've worn a helmet longer than you, and I also have campained for helmet use as well as educated children in bike safety classes to wear them.

    I quoted from the site you listed advice given on it and even mentioned that site is good in many ways.
    I know, you steered me to the site.

    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    I just want to know, how is it being anti-helmet learning and developing a deeper understanding on the topic?
    Did I say developing a deeper understanding of helmets is being anti-helmet?

    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    You can bury your head if you want, but some people, sometimes, want to know a little more, and there's been a few sites linked here if people want to learn a little.
    In what way am I burying my head in the sand? Can you point to something I've said that's at odds with the critiques of helmets?

    I doubt it. But I don't doubt that you can point to statements I've made that point out the quotes that were presented out of context on an anti-helmet site. I don't doubt that you can point to my statement that you have no studies or statistics to support your claim that bicycle helmets have not been shown to save any lives.

    Apparently, in some circles, if one is not anti-helmet after reading the anti-helmet literature, one is “burying one’s head in the sand.”

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