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  1. #1
    Hoz
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    What am I doing wrong? (rant)

    I have had two altercations with drivers in as many days. The first I was riding to the right in the right lane on a major 4 lane artery. The early morning traffic isn't non stop but comes in waves, with spaces of calm between. During one of these "waves" a work truck pulled up on my rear and lays on his horn. I keep to the right (not in the gutter though) and motion him to pass. After some more honking he passes with a vengeance, very close and honking again. As luck would have it I caught up to him at the next light and asked "What's the problem?" A short argument ensued where he said I should not be on the road during morning rush hour. I replied that I was cycling legally and that he needs to be very careful around cyclists. and give us a minimum of 3 foot clearance. By now the light had changed and he roared off shouting "NO WAY!"

    Then this morning on another 4 lane artery I am close passed by a Ford 350 diesel PU. .The driver gets caught at the next light and is in the far right lane which is a mandatory right turn with signs and arrows and all that stuff there. (Sorry Arlo). There is a long line waiting so I filter up between cars to the light as I usually do and as I pass his truck he guns the engine and pulls slightly across the line to either try and scare me or hit me. I shout "watch it!" and continue to the front, knowing all the cars behind and to my right are turning right.

    The light changes and I stand in the pedals to cross and gain the empty right hand lane when the truck doesn't turn right but comes across the intersection and almost clips me! Honking all the while.

    By this time I'm p"ed off and flip him the bird, making sure he knows what I mean. He starts slowing in traffic like it's show down time but it's rush hour he can't really stop. I got the first 3 numbers of his license plate but he decides not to stop and takes off.

    2x, 2 days. I'm getting a bad taste.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Itsjustb's Avatar
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    Other than being on the road--that's a joke--I don't see that you did anything terribly wrong (personally, I don't usually filter, but that's just me). It'd be easy to make generalizations about truck drivers and all that, but I think it's safer to say both of the people you encountered were simply in a rush, slightly raging, and have no concern what "the law" says. Sadly, we all run into them from time to time.
    "Everyone is entitled to an opinion" is only half-right.

    Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.

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    You are doing nothing wrong. I get that here in Miami about every other time I ride my bike.

    I've come to realise that there is a large group of drivers that just hate bicyclists. They know what the law is, but don't care, and just believe tha bicycles shouldn't be on the road.

    About the only thing you can do is just ride so they can't hurt you, which for me usually means taking the lane so they have to make a wide pass, so that even if they buzz you (which they will), you at least have room to your right to be able to avoid them.
    Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

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  4. #4
    AEO
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    Try not to get too worked up about it. In every place there are going to be people like that. Best you can do is keep your position.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
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  5. #5
    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    >>> cagers suck <<<
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  6. #6
    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrologia View Post
    I don't want to hijack your thread, Hoz, but I've been asking myself the same question lately: what am I doing wrong?

    There's a short stretch of road that I commute on daily with one shoulderless lane in each direction, a double-yellow line dividing them. If I stay to the far right, I get squeezed and buzzed. The more aggressive I get taking the lane, the more I get squeezed and buzzed, but with a liberal sprinkling of honks and hand guestures.

    I'm going to speak with the local police about their advice on this particular stretch. It's strange, because during all other portions of my commute I'm treated with respect and caution.


    The cops are going to tell you what they told me the last time I complained to them about a similar situation .....

    " find another path that is less traveled by cars " .......


    Yeah, thanks a lot a$ $ hole.
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  7. #7
    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    The surest way to ensure every motorist is an @$$hole is to generalize. So you met one jerk that morning out of how many dozens (or perhaps hundreds) of cars?

    As cyclists in traffic, we stand out more and our posture, mood, and attitude are more apparent than all of the cars around us. If you feel/act like a victim (or like Mad Max), your body gives off dozens of little signals that invite overbearing (or combative) treatment.

    And also the work truck guy was probably frustrated because he'd been dealing with rude, innattentive drivers all morning before running into you. And since he was driving a worktruck in Southern Cal, he almost certainly felt like one little persecuted blue-collar fish in a sea of white-collar Lexuses and LandRovers.

    And what modes of response do motorists have when they are mistreated and feel a lack of control? Very few options to retaliate against vehicular transgressors... ram them? Then along Hoz who is accessible... voila.

    I'm not suggesting that you did anything wrong, but if you can rehearse biting-your-tongue next time and just wave and say "Sorry!" with a smile, it will either REALLY infuriate him (some people can't stand that they're unable to get your goat) OR he might see you (and all cyclists) in a different light.

    I'm no saint, and I've succumbed to bird-flipping and even spitting. But I felt horrible afterward. OTOH, when I was able to smile and wave, I felt like I was completely in command. You aren't apologizing for anything you've done; just sorry that his day is obviously off to a bad start.
    Good luck and let us know if you try it.
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  8. #8
    Wildman in the Sky voileauciel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamarichris View Post
    The surest way to ensure every motorist is an @$$hole is to generalize. So you met one jerk that morning out of how many dozens (or perhaps hundreds) of cars?

    As cyclists in traffic, we stand out more and our posture, mood, and attitude are more apparent than all of the cars around us. If you feel/act like a victim (or like Mad Max), your body gives off dozens of little signals that invite overbearing (or combative) treatment.

    And also the work truck guy was probably frustrated because he'd been dealing with rude, innattentive drivers all morning before running into you. And since he was driving a worktruck in Southern Cal, he almost certainly felt like one little persecuted blue-collar fish in a sea of white-collar Lexuses and LandRovers.

    And what modes of response do motorists have when they are mistreated and feel a lack of control? Very few options to retaliate against vehicular transgressors... ram them? Then along Hoz who is accessible... voila.

    I'm not suggesting that you did anything wrong, but if you can rehearse biting-your-tongue next time and just wave and say "Sorry!" with a smile, it will either REALLY infuriate him (some people can't stand that they're unable to get your goat) OR he might see you (and all cyclists) in a different light.

    I'm no saint, and I've succumbed to bird-flipping and even spitting. But I felt horrible afterward. OTOH, when I was able to smile and wave, I felt like I was completely in command. You aren't apologizing for anything you've done; just sorry that his day is obviously off to a bad start.
    Good luck and let us know if you try it.
    -CCinC
    I'm actually willing to agree with you on this, if only because I've tried this over the past week or so and found that it actually works! Kill them with kindness, and you automatically have the upper hand.

    That being said, at every crash I've had involving a motorist, where it was absolutely certain that I was not at fault, and they denied it, I have shown what true anger can be, both verbally and, later on, in the court system, legally...
    "Invention, my dear friends, is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple."

  9. #9
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    Sometimes you just get a few bad ones in a row. I try not to get bent out of shape about it, and I try to notice when I've gotten some nice drivers. Like lately, I've had the rare situation of more drivers stopping than not at the MUP crossings, and people slowing down to let me in when I signal to get in the left hand lane.

    Actually, the only *really* bad situation I had lately was a borderline psychotic person who I encountered when I was driving. It's not just cyclists, people like that will start crap with drivers too.

  10. #10
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrologia View Post
    I don't want to hijack your thread, Hoz, but I've been asking myself the same question lately: what am I doing wrong?

    There's a short stretch of road that I commute on daily with one shoulderless lane in each direction, a double-yellow line dividing them. If I stay to the far right, I get squeezed and buzzed. The more aggressive I get taking the lane, the more I get squeezed and buzzed, but with a liberal sprinkling of honks and hand guestures.

    I'm going to speak with the local police about their advice on this particular stretch. It's strange, because during all other portions of my commute I'm treated with respect and caution.
    I understand that you get squeezed and buzzed when you stay to the far right. I don't understand why you get more squeezed and buzzed if you control the lane.

    You'll probably get better advice trying to find a local LCI (see http://bikeleague.org/programs/educa...e_schedule.php) than asking the police for advice.

    What works for me is using a mirror and communicating with drivers behind me. By having a mirror I can see them coming and let them know that I know they're there, I'm staying where I am, and I know what I'm doing. This is accomplished by subtle but very effective minor changes in lateral position, judicious use of the left arm slow/stop signal, and looking back, sometimes with a nod and/or smile. It's an art... you try different combinations at different times and get a feel for what works when. But the key is rearward situational awareness through use of a mirror. Other LCIs may provide different advice.

    HH

  11. #11
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    I understand that you get squeezed and buzzed when you stay to the far right. I don't understand why you get more squeezed and buzzed if you control the lane.

    ...
    I can explain it, helemt head....you don't ride alone a lot, and correspondingly don't experience poor driver etiquitte while assertively holding the lane at pinch points like dietrologica mentions.

    To hoz, and the rest of the respondents that DO occasionally experience poor driver behavior while fully taking the lane, you know it happens to the best of us, REGARDLESS of ones hand signals or asswaggles.

    Sometimes, using the slow hand signal brings on a ragin'. riding in ones' imaginary constructs might make it difficult to comprehend, but this stuff happens sometimes - because some cagers are just downright hostile to bicyclists- despite lane position or etc. etc.

    to HOZ, you need to get thicker skin. Practice yelling "learn the rules of the road" as loud as possible. get rude back. HH's protestations of asswaggles and pretending these situations don't occur with proper 'lane position and communication' is illusionary and delusional.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #12
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    Lately, when drivers treat me as described by the OP, I don't confront them verbally, but, if I catch up to them, make a bit of a production of pulling out my camera cell-phone and snapping a pic of their car and license plate. Most of the time, they quickly get the 'picture' and most don't bother me after that.

    Fortunately, for me, the rude driver is the exception rather than the rule these days.

    Caruso

  13. #13
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I can explain it, helemt head....you don't ride alone a lot, and correspondingly don't experience poor driver etiquitte while assertively holding the lane at pinch points like dietrologica mentions.

    To hoz, and the rest of the respondents that DO occasionally experience poor driver behavior while fully taking the lane, you know it happens to the best of us, REGARDLESS of ones hand signals or asswaggles.

    Sometimes, using the slow hand signal brings on a ragin'. riding in ones' imaginary constructs might make it difficult to comprehend, but this stuff happens sometimes - because some cagers are just downright hostile to bicyclists- despite lane position or etc. etc.

    to HOZ, you need to get thicker skin. Practice yelling "learn the rules of the road" as loud as possible. get rude back. HH's protestations of asswaggles and pretending these situations don't occur with proper 'lane position and communication' is illusionary and delusional.
    I don't know what Bek is talking about, nor does he. Most of my mileage, and all of my commute time mileage, is solo.

    See the video clips at the following website for examples of what I'm talking about:

    http://www.cyclistview.com

    This one is a good example:

    http://www.cyclistview.com/laneposition.htm

  14. #14
    Senior Member nick burns's Avatar
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    Some motorists just do not want to follow a bicyclist and no matter where you place yourself in the lane, will pass regardless of how dangerous it is.

  15. #15
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    "mileage" sounds like you're muddling your biking with driving your car, HH.

    last year you talked about not commuting by bike regularily, and how most of your mileage was from the weekend peloton ride, head. twice a week, often with another cyclist on pleasure rides was how I recall you describing an 'average' HH bike week.

    how you can't understand a commonplace driver/biker interaction, regardless of ones' lane position or handwaving or buttwaggles, is easily explainable- you don't experience what virtually every other bicyclist experiences......
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    A friend of mine told be his theory... most drivers are afraid that they'll hit you, and those that yell and honk the loudest are the ones that are the most afraid (since they are the most incompetent drivers). Could be he's right. Another friend told me he responds to the inevitable yells/honks by blowing them a kiss. I haven't tried it yet but I am going to.

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick burns View Post
    Some motorists just do not want to follow a bicyclist and no matter where you place yourself in the lane, will pass regardless of how dangerous it is.
    No doubt.

    The issue is whether they do it more or less when a cyclist is far right in a narrow lane or when he is controlling a narrow lane. In my experience, almost all drivers pass too closely when riding far right in a narrow lane, and I'm rarely (not never) buzzed when controlling a narrow lane, especially when I'm controlling the situation by maintaining rearward situational awareness by using a mirror.

  18. #18
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    "mileage" sounds like you're muddling your biking with driving your car, HH.

    last year you talked about not commuting by bike regularily, and how most of your mileage was from the weekend peloton ride, head. twice a week, often with another cyclist on pleasure rides was how I recall you describing an 'average' HH bike week.

    how you can't understand a commonplace driver/biker interaction, regardless of ones' lane position or handwaving or buttwaggles, is easily explainable- you don't experience what virtually every other bicyclist experiences......
    I did ride with the peloton on Labor Day, but it has been months that I've done that, Bek. You don't know what you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you.

  19. #19
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voileauciel View Post
    That being said, at every crash I've had involving a motorist, where it was absolutely certain that I was not at fault, and they denied it, I have shown what true anger can be, both verbally and, later on, in the court system, legally...
    At every crash? And you are 23 years old. How many crashes have you had? Why not get it off your chest and on to your keyboard and tell us what true anger accomplished.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrologia View Post
    There's a short stretch of road that I commute on daily with one shoulderless lane in each direction, a double-yellow line dividing them. If I stay to the far right, I get squeezed and buzzed. The more aggressive I get taking the lane, the more I get squeezed and buzzed, but with a liberal sprinkling of honks and hand guestures.
    What's the most "aggressive" you get taking the lane? I've found that using the right tire track can often be just as bad as staying a foot from the road edge (although sometimes those are one and the same). My lane position is an all or nothing deal. I'm either dead center in the lane or I'm not in the lane at all. If a motorist will have to put their tires over the centerline or lane line on the road in order to pass me at a safe distance (determined by speed or traffic level), I'm in the center of the lane making it absolutely clear that I am do not want anyone else in my lane with me. I so rarely get close passed that I have to believe that I must be doing something right

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    If I stay to the far right, I get squeezed and buzzed. The more aggressive I get taking the lane, the more I get squeezed and buzzed, but with a liberal sprinkling of honks and hand guestures.
    I'm shocked. Who could have foreseen that riding a bicycle in the middle of the lane and blocking traffic would upset motorists? We may have to rethink the whole "VC" paradigm...

  22. #22
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoz View Post
    I have had two altercations with drivers in as many days.
    People can be dicks, especially at rush hour, comes with the territory. HTFU.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  23. #23
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    What's the most "aggressive" you get taking the lane? I've found that using the right tire track can often be just as bad as staying a foot from the road edge (although sometimes those are one and the same). My lane position is an all or nothing deal. I'm either dead center in the lane or I'm not in the lane at all. If a motorist will have to put their tires over the centerline or lane line on the road in order to pass me at a safe distance (determined by speed or traffic level), I'm in the center of the lane making it absolutely clear that I am do not want anyone else in my lane with me. I so rarely get close passed that I have to believe that I must be doing something right
    I'm shocked. Who could have foreseen that riding a bicycle in the middle of the lane and blocking traffic would upset motorists? We may have to rethink the whole "VC" paradigm...
    Six Jours, you still don't get it, totally discounting the subtle but very significant difference between riding in the right tire track and riding between the left and right tire tracks, which Joe obviously understands. Quite apparently Joe's ability to get to the heart of the matters comes from his experience of riding in the center of the lane, which Six Jours and dietrologia quite apparently lack (but it doesn't keep them from commenting on the technique as if they're experienced experts).

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrologia View Post
    I think you're right, joejack, as I usually ride in the right tire track, so I'm obviously not being aggressive enough in my lane positioning to prevent close passes.

    I guess I'm riding with the following graph in mind, which seems pretty accurate on this stretch of road. I guess I'm trying to figure out which is worse: making drivers angry and having to deal with their rage vs. risking a clip.
    Your lack of experience (with riding centered in the narrow lane the way JJ and I do) biases you to assume that incidence and intensity of road rage is directly proportional to distance from curb.

    My experience tells me the distribution is more like this:
    AnnoyanceDistance.jpg

  24. #24
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Quite apparently Joe's ability to get to the heart of the matters comes from his experience of riding in the center of the lane, which Six Jours and dietrologia quite apparently lack (but it doesn't keep them from commenting on the technique as if they're experienced experts).


    Your lack of experience (with riding centered in the narrow lane the way JJ and I do) biases you to assume that incidence and intensity of road rage is directly proportional to distance from curb.

    My experience tells me the distribution is more like this:
    AnnoyanceDistance.jpg




    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-07-07 at 04:52 PM.

  25. #25
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrologia View Post
    Woah, man... take it easy. I've never claimed to be an expert on this forum; please don't mischaracterize me this way.

    I've posted in this thread, "What am I doing wrong," because I realize that I'm doing something wrong and I'm asking for advice. I'm very aware that I'm pretty inexperienced -- that's why I frequent this forum -- to educate myself, not to be insulted, so I would ask, politely, that you stop from doing so.
    Point taken. I was way out of line. I apologize. I allowed my sentiments about Six Jours to spill out on you. That's not fair.

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