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Old 09-07-07, 04:39 PM   #1
kuan
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Schoolbus hits and kills cyclist

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20625954/

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By / StarTribune
startribune.com

A school bus struck a bicyclist near Lake Calhoun in Minneapolis this morning, killing the rider, witnesses said.

The accident occurred about 10 a.m. The bicyclist's body was covered with a sheet and remained in the street for nearly 2 hours, as did his bicycle, while police from several jurisdictions investigated.

Traffic in the densely traveled area crawled around the scene until it was cleared shortly after noon.
Story continues below ↓advertisement

Authorities were having difficulty Thursday afternoon identifying the victim and made a plea to the public for help. The Hennepin County medical examiner's office described the bicyclist as a while male, 20 to 40 years old, 5-foot-10 and about 200 pounds, with dark brown medium-length hair and brown eyes.

He was riding a blue Giant Cypress bicycle and was wearing jean shorts, a black T-shirt that read "LBJ Wolves whatever it takes," socks and shoes.

Anyone with information about the victim is asked to call the medical examiner's office at 612-215-6300.

The bus was turning left from West Calhoun Parkway onto westbound Lake Street, when it struck the bicyclist while he rode in the crosswalk heading south, witnesses said.

The bus was operated by Laidlaw Education Services of Brooklyn Park. Route signs on it indicated it was serving the Minneapolis School District.
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Old 09-07-07, 04:49 PM   #2
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My condolences to John Doe's family and loved ones.

To the rest of us this is a good reminder about what makes us vulnerable out there. The first rule on "how to avoid the left cross" at bicyclesafe.com is:

1. Don't ride on the sidewalk. When you come off the sidewalk to cross the street, you're invisible to turning motorists.

http://www.bicyclesafe.com/
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Old 09-07-07, 05:21 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
There you go again...

This tragic accident has nothing to do with a sidewalk. I would suggest that before taking any media accounts at face value, and using them to "teach" people, that you educate yourself a bit about the actual facts surrounding the accident.

#1. There is no sidewalk on that side of the street.

#2. There is no crosswalk on that side of the street.

Spoon feeding begins:
“The Laidlaw school bus was northbound on Calhoun Parkway at Lake Street, stopped at a red light,” said police Sgt. Tammy Diedrich. “The light turned green, and he pulled into the intersection to make a left turn. The bike rider was southbound on Dean Parkway, and he was going to cross Lake Street on Calhoun Parkway.”

The bicyclist and bus collided in the intersection, and the bicyclist died at the scene, she said.
I'm just going based on what's in the OP.

"The bus was turning left from West Calhoun Parkway onto westbound Lake Street, when it struck the bicyclist while he rode in the crosswalk heading south, witnesses said."

I don't think it was unreasonable to assume a cyclist in the crosswalk came off the sidewalk.
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Old 09-07-07, 05:51 PM   #4
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To wear bright clothing is another good tip, but most people on this forum already know that, and there is little to no controversy about it, so I don't think it's as valuable to point it out.

Whether the crosswalk the cyclist was riding in was marked or not is immaterial. How do you know there is no sidewalk and no crosswalk?
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Old 09-07-07, 06:09 PM   #5
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It's still unclear whether the man was hit while in the "crosswalk" or in the middle of the intersection.

There is an actual bicycle path entry on the southeast corner of the intersection. This is the path that goes around the lake. Sometimes, just sometimes, cyclists heading south do the diagonal crossover. Not saying anything, just saying.

Incidently this lake has separate bike and pedestrian paths, although most pedestrians don't care.
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Old 09-07-07, 07:26 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
According to the police who did the accident investigation it happened in the intersection. They also note that the cyclist was Southbound on Dean Parkway, not the bike path which is separated from the roadway.

The original post/news story included an "eyewitness account" that claimed it happened in the crosswalk. The updated police information is some 30 hours +/- more recent.

A bus northbound on Calhoun Parkway and turning left on Lake Street does not cross a crosswalk...
Pete, let me enlighten you here. It's become clear over time that VC is so all-encompassing that it even has a set of rules of forensics. Yes, the VC dogma as preached by our friend Serge "Helmethead" will even determine who was at fault in any motor vehichle - cyclists fatal collision with just two simple rules!

This little known but indispensable tool is known as the V.C. Serge "Helmethead" Incontrovertible Tennents of vehichular forensics. The two rules are:

Rule #1 - It's always the cyclists' fault.

Rule #2 - If the facts indicate that it wasn't the cyclists' fault then conveniently ignore the facts and apply rule #1
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Old 09-07-07, 07:43 PM   #7
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Hey Pete where do you get such cool pics?
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Old 09-07-07, 09:20 PM   #8
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[quote=Pete Fagerlin;5229538]According to the police who did the accident investigation it happened in the intersection. They also note that the cyclist was Southbound on Dean Parkway, not the bike path which is separated from the roadway.

The original post/news story included an "eyewitness account" that claimed it happened in the crosswalk. The updated police information is some 30 hours +/- more recent.

A bus northbound on Calhoun Parkway and turning left on Lake Street does not cross a crosswalk...




there is a cross walk right there.....
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Old 09-07-07, 09:25 PM   #9
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no need to be a hipster about it. Since I'm not from that area i dont know how those streets run (north south whatever.)
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Old 09-08-07, 06:03 AM   #10
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The cyclist may have been attempting the diagonal cross. He might have gone south and then tried to make his way onto the bike path by cutting across thereby making it look like the bus hit him in the east-west sidewalk.

Pete, I must be search impaired because I can't find a view like the one you have. Is this some kind of secret?
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Old 09-08-07, 06:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
My condolences to John Doe's family and loved ones.

To the rest of us this is a good reminder about what makes us vulnerable out there. The first rule on "how to avoid the left cross" at bicyclesafe.com is:

1. Don't ride on the sidewalk. When you come off the sidewalk to cross the street, you're invisible to turning motorists.

http://www.bicyclesafe.com/


I'm most likely going to get smacked by a mod for this. But HH get the hell out of this topic with your crap and stay out of these topics. Who gives a damn where he was riding quit using things like this for your own agenda.
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Old 09-08-07, 07:16 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by kuan View Post
Hey Pete where do you get such cool pics?
In the true spirit of this forum, Pete answers with "The internet" so he can appear superior. Since I don't need to feel superior I'll tell you his secret ... local.live.com. After you find the location click on "Birds Eye View". There, I answered a simple question in a civil tone. It was so easy.

Regarding the accident: Dean Parkway becomes W. Calhoun Pkwy at the intersection of W. Lake St. I speculate that Mr. Doe may have come off the eastbound bikeway just north of the intersection, looked over his left shoulder so he could blend with southbound traffic on W. Calhoun/Dean Pkwy and rode directly in front of the bus. I feel it is unlikely he was southbound on Dean Pkwy as the police report indicates because it is difficult not to see a big yellow bus turning in front of you. Also, if you look closely at the picture there does appear there may be a crosswalk on W. Lake St. on the west side of Dean/Calhoun Pkwy, hence the witness description. We'll never know will we?

Last edited by OH306; 09-08-07 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 09-08-07, 08:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by OH306 View Post
In the true spirit of this forum, Pete answers with "The internet" so he can appear superior. Since I don't need to feel superior I'll tell you his secret ... local.live.com. After you find the location click on "Birds Eye View". There, I answered a simple question in a civil tone. It was so easy.
Thanks!

Imagine the inferiority complex Peter must have to be compelled to not share the source of the aerial photos he has been posting on this forum for months. Pathetic.
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Old 09-08-07, 08:48 AM   #14
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Please restore some civility and mutual respect to this forum. All of us care passionately about our own safety and that of other cyclists. I disagree with HH on several specifics, but I also understand his viewpoint and acknowledge that he has some valid ideas for increasing our visibility to today's distracted, visually overwhelmed motorists.

In this particular tragedy we simply do not have enough information to estimate the relative culpabilities of the cyclist and the bus driver. The most important unanswered question is the cyclist's exact trajectory. My second question is whether north-south pedestrian crossing is banned along the west side of the intersection. If it is, north-to-west-turning motorists (up and to the left in the Google Earth photo) are not looking toward the implied crosswalk area and are likely to miss a bicyclist crossing there. In a situation such as this, it is doubly incumbent on us to left-bias our position into the main traffic flow and away from the curb and (missing) crosswalk, per HH's standard advice. My third question is whether the bus driver had a green arrow signifying a protected left turn, in which case the cyclist was clearly in the wrong. Perhaps someone who knows the intersection well can help us out here.
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Old 09-08-07, 02:45 PM   #15
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They identified the man from his iPod.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20651697

Here's his website

http://www.raiseyourchildrenmywaydamnit.com/
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Old 09-08-07, 05:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
Assumption coupled with projection.

Only in YOUR dreams.

Serge, are you really that internet challenged? Simply Googling "aerial photos" or satellite photos" or "aerial view" or "satellite view" links you right to many sources of aerial imagery.

Now he decides to be helpful.

Here's a relevant link that describes the struggles that you apparently face while trying to use the internet:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1787713,00.asp

Oops, being nice didn't last long. That's the Peter we know and love .. well, the Peter we know.

Rather than rely on a bunch of e-speculation I'll rely on the conclusion of the folks that were on the scene, the ones who are trained in accident reconstruction, and the ones who spent several hours at the scene doing an accident reconstruction. That would be the police:

NOW you decide the police are ALWAYS right.

I don't see a crosswalk there.

No big surprise there.
I'll bet you need to tie a pork chop around your neck just to get a dog to play with you.
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Old 09-08-07, 07:16 PM   #17
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If I had known that a simple article would generate so much venom I'd have simply kept it to myself. I ride and run through this intersection a lot so this incident somewhat touches me.

Live.com is fantastic BTW, thanks Pete and thanks for the link.
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Old 09-09-07, 12:25 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by kuan View Post
... "Authorities were having difficulty Thursday afternoon identifying the victim "...
this presents a good argument for carrying some form of ID - i keep a business card in my under-seat spare tube bag, just in case.

i suppose it's more relevant if you survive but can't communicate. if you're dead, what to do?

i am very sad to learn of this death. my condolences.
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Old 09-09-07, 07:02 AM   #19
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I've been a member of BF for a couple of years now, but this is the first time I've ventured into the safety and advocacy board for a while.

Which leads to the question: Who does Pete Fagerlin think he is? I pulled up a number of his posts and it appears that he's incapable of sharing information or opinion without sounding like a complete prick.
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Old 09-09-07, 04:30 PM   #20
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I checked out the intersection today. There's a crosswalk on the west side of the intersection. Just no lines drawn on the road. Hmm...
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Old 09-09-07, 05:27 PM   #21
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The sympathy and/or empathy for the cyclist and his friends and family sure seems to have vanished quickly.
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Old 09-10-07, 06:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
According to the police who did the accident investigation it happened in the intersection. They also note that the cyclist was Southbound on Dean Parkway, not the bike path which is separated from the roadway.

The original post/news story included an "eyewitness account" that claimed it happened in the crosswalk. The updated police information is some 30 hours +/- more recent.

A bus northbound on Calhoun Parkway and turning left on Lake Street does not cross a crosswalk...

there is a cross walk right there.....
Are you taking lessons from Madden?

Seriously, this is illustrative. Thanks.
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Old 09-10-07, 08:18 AM   #23
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I've been a member of BF for a couple of years now, but this is the first time I've ventured into the safety and advocacy board for a while.

Which leads to the question: Who does Pete Fagerlin think he is? I pulled up a number of his posts and it appears that he's incapable of sharing information or opinion without sounding like a complete prick.
The man has ego problems, apparently.
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Old 09-11-07, 05:52 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
More projection Serge. At least you're fairly consistent.

Let me know if you still need help figuring out how to use Google. I can show you where to type in "satellite photo" and point you to the link to live.com. It's the first link on the upper right side of the results page if you want to try to figure it out on your own.

Cheers!
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Old 09-11-07, 07:27 AM   #25
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I lived in the neighborhood- it is green arrow land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John E View Post
Please restore some civility and mutual respect to this forum. All of us care passionately about our own safety and that of other cyclists. I disagree with HH on several specifics, but I also understand his viewpoint and acknowledge that he has some valid ideas for increasing our visibility to today's distracted, visually overwhelmed motorists.

In this particular tragedy we simply do not have enough information to estimate the relative culpabilities of the cyclist and the bus driver. The most important unanswered question is the cyclist's exact trajectory. My second question is whether north-south pedestrian crossing is banned along the west side of the intersection. If it is, north-to-west-turning motorists (up and to the left in the Google Earth photo) are not looking toward the implied crosswalk area and are likely to miss a bicyclist crossing there. In a situation such as this, it is doubly incumbent on us to left-bias our position into the main traffic flow and away from the curb and (missing) crosswalk, per HH's standard advice. My third question is whether the bus driver had a green arrow signifying a protected left turn, in which case the cyclist was clearly in the wrong. Perhaps someone who knows the intersection well can help us out here.
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