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  1. #1
    thomas masini lives
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    Decipher this law

    What does this mean?

    "
    1. A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall follow a course described in sections 42-4-901 (1), 42-4-903, and 42-4-1007 or may make a left turn in the manner prescribed in paragraph (b) of this subsection (8).
    2. A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall approach the turn as closely as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway edges, the bicyclist shall stop, as much as practicable, out of the way of traffic. After stopping, the bicyclist shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either direction along the roadway the bicyclist had been using. After yielding and complying with any official traffic control device or police officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, the bicyclist may proceed in the new direction.
    3. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection (8), the transportation commission and local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may cause official traffic control devices to be placed on roadways and thereby require and direct that a specific course be traveled."
    not a 2ksuck'r

  2. #2
    Emperor of the Universe Raven Stands Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    What does this mean?

    "
    1. A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall follow a course described in sections 42-4-901 (1), 42-4-903, and 42-4-1007 or may make a left turn in the manner prescribed in paragraph (b) of this subsection (8).
    2. A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall approach the turn as closely as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway edges, the bicyclist shall stop, as much as practicable, out of the way of traffic. After stopping, the bicyclist shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either direction along the roadway the bicyclist had been using. After yielding and complying with any official traffic control device or police officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, the bicyclist may proceed in the new direction.
    3. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection (8), the transportation commission and local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may cause official traffic control devices to be placed on roadways and thereby require and direct that a specific course be traveled."
    It means doofus, it means that... uh.... that you have to go to the other corner and stand there for a while and then.... and then you... uh... never mind.
    This is my new signature: Thanks ohno.

    Alright, first off, i'm not a guy, i'm a kid. They're different. I don't have bar tape, I have grips. And your web design hurt my brain enough. Your bike isn't special, it's just like every other conversion out there. Make a thread about something worthwhile, which your bike is not.

    I'm not here to be your punching bag. I'm here to report on the state of what is out of your control!

  3. #3
    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    1) It's the cyclist's fault

    2) It's always the cyclists's fault

    3) There are occasions where an investigation may reveal evidence that the motorist acted in a negligent fashion

    4) In the event of (3) see (1) and (2)

  4. #4
    thomas masini lives
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    Someone better figure this out, I don't know how to make a legal left hand turn in this state!
    not a 2ksuck'r

  5. #5
    *****es love tarck kemmer's Avatar
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    It means "stay the **** out of the way *******!"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    Someone better figure this out, I don't know how to make a legal left hand turn in this state!

    Make three right hand turns! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    It seems that when turning left, you pretty much "become" a pedestrian! Cross the street, wait for proper signal, then cross again, completing your turn. BS!!!!!!

    Good luck,
    Chris

  7. #7
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    "A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall follow a course described in sections 42-4-901 (1), 42-4-903, and 42-4-1007 or may make a left turn in the manner prescribed in paragraph (b) of this subsection (8)."

    It sounds like doing the pedestrian move described is ONE of the ways of making a left turn- perhaps the other two or three referenced in those sections are car-type maneuvers.

  8. #8
    Senior Member OH306's Avatar
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    You have your presidential candidate selected .. that seems a more difficult question.

  9. #9
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    What does this mean?

    "
    a. A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall follow a course described in sections 42-4-901 (1), 42-4-903, and 42-4-1007 or may make a left turn in the manner prescribed in paragraph (b) of this subsection (8).
    b. A person riding a bicycle intending to turn left shall approach the turn as closely as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway edges, the bicyclist shall stop, as much as practicable, out of the way of traffic. After stopping, the bicyclist shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either direction along the roadway the bicyclist had been using. After yielding and complying with any official traffic control device or police officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, the bicyclist may proceed in the new direction.
    c. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection (8), the transportation commission and local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may cause official traffic control devices to be placed on roadways and thereby require and direct that a specific course be traveled."
    First, the paragraphs should be labeled a, b, c; not 1, 2, 3. I fixed it for you. That makes the reference to paragraph (b) in paragraph (a) make sense.

    I can't find "sections 42-4-901 (1), 42-4-903, and 42-4-1007", so I don't know.

    http://bicyclecolo.org/page.cfm?PageID=45

  10. #10
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    It's called a 'hook turn'.

    Basically, to turn left, you cross the intersection, and join the traffic waiting at the light in the direction you want to go. Position yourself as you normally would for a red light at that intersection.

    The main benefit of this is that you can make a left without having to cross any lanes of moving traffic. The downside is that it takes a bit longer.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  11. #11
    thomas masini lives
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    Quote Originally Posted by OH306 View Post
    You have your presidential candidate selected .. that seems a more difficult question.
    Don't be distracted by that; it's only for trolling purposes. I forgot it was there.
    not a 2ksuck'r

  12. #12
    52-week commuter DCCommuter's Avatar
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    The law in question appears to be Colorado.

    Paragraph a gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles. It says that a cyclist has a choice -- he can either make a left turn as a motorist (regulated by Colorado Revised Statutes section 42-4-901) or he can do a pedestrian turn, as defined in paragraph b. This gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles.

    Here is what CRS 42-4-901 says:


    The driver of a motor vehicle intending to turn shall do so as follows:

    Right Turns: Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway.

    Left Turns: The driver of a motor vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of such vehicle. Whenever practicable, the left turn shall be made to the left of the center of the intersection so as to leave the intersection or other location in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction as such vehicle on the roadway being entered.

    Two-way Left Turn Lanes: Where a special lane for making left turns by drivers proceeding in opposite directions has been indicated by official traffic control devices, a left turn shall not be made from any other lane, and a motor vehicle shall not be driven in said special lane except when preparing for or making a left turn from or onto the roadway or when preparing for or making a U-turn when otherwise permitted by law.

    Official traffic control devices may be placed and thereby require and direct that a different course from that specified in this section be traveled by turning motor vehicles, and, when such devices are so placed, no driver shall turn a motor vehicle other than as directed and required by such devices.
    Cross reference: Section 42-4-901, C.R.S.
    Paragraph b is a description of how to do a pedestrian left turn.

    Paragraph c says that if there is a sign directing how to turn left, follow the sign instead of paragraph a or b.
    The United States of America is the only democratic nation in the world to deny citizens living in the nation's capital representation in the national legislature. District residents have no vote in either the U.S. Senate or U.S. House of Representatives. www.dcvote.org

  13. #13
    thomas masini lives
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCCommuter View Post
    The law in question appears to be Colorado.

    Paragraph a gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles. It says that a cyclist has a choice -- he can either make a left turn as a motorist (regulated by Colorado Revised Statutes section 42-4-901) or he can do a pedestrian turn, as defined in paragraph b. This gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles.

    Here is what CRS 42-4-901 says:



    Paragraph b is a description of how to do a pedestrian left turn.

    Paragraph c says that if there is a sign directing how to turn left, follow the sign instead of paragraph a or b.
    Thanks. You are awesome.

    Edit: Bikes are motor vehicles I suppose?
    not a 2ksuck'r

  14. #14
    `````````````` CaptainCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    Edit: Bikes are motor vehicles I suppose?
    More specifically, these laws state that bikes are allowed to act as motor vehicles while making a left turn. I don't know what Colorado says in general.

  15. #15
    Crankenstein bmclaughlin807's Avatar
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    Bikes are not motor vehicles. bicyclists have all the rights, duties, and responsibilities of motor vehicles when operating on the road ways.

    Although, bicyclists operating on sidewalks are treated as pedestrians.

    Lovely, huh?
    "There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson

  16. #16
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    Edit: Bikes are motor vehicles I suppose?
    Of course not, but bikes are vehicles (or "devices", depending on your state), but, more importantly, bicyclists are supposed to act like drivers of vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCool View Post
    More specifically, these laws state that bikes are allowed to act as motor vehicles while making a left turn. I don't know what Colorado says in general.
    Bikes can't act.

    These laws state that BICYCLISTS are allowed to act either as drivers of vehicles (not motor vehicles) or as pedestrians when making left turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807 View Post
    Bikes are not motor vehicles. bicyclists have all the rights, duties, and responsibilities of motor vehicles when operating on the road ways.
    Motor vehicles don't have rights.

    Bicyclists have the rights, duties and responsibilities of DRIVERS OF motor vehicles when operating on the roadways.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 09-25-07 at 09:58 PM.

  17. #17
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCCommuter View Post
    The law in question appears to be Colorado.

    Paragraph a gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles. It says that a cyclist has a choice -- he can either make a left turn as a motorist (regulated by Colorado Revised Statutes section 42-4-901) or he can do a pedestrian turn, as defined in paragraph b. This gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles.

    Here is what CRS 42-4-901 says:



    Paragraph b is a description of how to do a pedestrian left turn.

    Paragraph c says that if there is a sign directing how to turn left, follow the sign instead of paragraph a or b.
    Thanks. Got a link? I couldn't find 42-4-901.

  18. #18
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
    It's so cute when you go into preaching mode Serge.

    So, if cyclists have the same rights as motor vehicle drivers, then why are they relegated to the road margins per the California Driver Handbook?

    "Bicyclists- must ride in a straight line as near to the right curb or edge of the roadway as practical— not on the sidewalk"

    You better start sending whiny emails to the DMV so you can assert your right to ride "like a lunatic on a bike" to protect yourself from those scary motorists!
    First, some numskull's Reader's Digest abridged interpretation of the law as published in the driver's manual is not the law. There is no law that requires bicyclists to "ride in a straight line as near to the right curb or edge of the roadway as practical". That's just malarkey with a very tenuous basis to the actual law. I can't believe it's in there.

    Second, bicyclists have the same rights as drivers of vehicles per 21200:

    21200. (a) Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle ...

    http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21200.htm
    Third, bicyclists, when operating slower than other traffic, are subject to the same "slow moving vehicle" rules as are drivers of any slow moving vehicles. In particular, on roads with multiple lanes, bicyclists, like any driver of a slow moving vehicle, are required to operate in the right-hand lane. On roads without multiple lanes, bicyclists, like any driver of a slow moving vehicle, is required to operate as far right as practicable.

    Slow-Moving Vehicles

    21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

    http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21654.htm
    Finally, there are some additional minor restrictions that apply to bicyclists but not to drivers of slow moving vehicles, and vice versa, that take into account the relatively narrow width of bicycles. In particular, where the lane is wide enough to be safely shared side-by-side by a bike and car both fully within the lane, bicyclists that are traveling slower than other traffic are required to keep "as far right as practicable" (same language as in 21654 that applies to all drivers of slow moving vehicles). This is mandated by 21202, but that section is riddled with so many exceptions it rarely applies. For example, it doesn't apply any time the cyclist is approaching "a place where a right turn is authorized". Most residential and commercial areas have "a place where a right turn is authorized" every 25 to 200 feet, so on most urban and suburban roads, except on certain long multi-hundred foot sections of uninterrupted roadway, 21202 does not apply. Anyway, here it is, such as it is:

    Operation on Roadway

    21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

    (1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

    (2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

    (3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

    (4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

    (b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.

    http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm
    That line in the driver's manual is very misleading. I'll try to get the wheels rolling to get it fixed.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 09-25-07 at 11:01 PM.

  19. #19
    52-week commuter DCCommuter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
    So, if cyclists have the same rights as motor vehicle drivers, then why are they relegated to the road margins per the California Driver Handbook?

    "Bicyclists- must ride in a straight line as near to the right curb or edge of the roadway as practical— not on the sidewalk"
    Note also that the "road" and the "roadway" are two different things. The roadway is the portion of the road that is normally traveled -- the lanes. So cyclists are not "relegated to the road margins," rather the right portion of the lanes.

    As an aside, the language "right curb or edge of the roadway" is deliberately confusing. I can't imagine a case where the curb is to the left of the edge of the roadway, so there's no point in even mentioning the curb. It's as if they wished the law said "the rightmost of the right curb or the edge of the roadway" and are trying to trick people into thinking that's what the law says. But it doesn't.
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  20. #20
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
    That's weird, I see curbs to the left of the edge of the roadway all over the place.
    Hey Pete. I am having trouble picturing this ... maybe it is my interpretation of the sentence.

    How can a curb be inside the edge of the roadway? Do you mean something like a bulb out?

    -G

  21. #21
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    Hey Pete. I am having trouble picturing this
    Pete's just playing games. He means the curb on the far left side of the roadway. Practical scenario is a one way street.

    Al

  22. #22
    ROM 6:23 flipped4bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCCommuter View Post
    The law in question appears to be Colorado.

    Paragraph a gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles. It says that a cyclist has a choice -- he can either make a left turn as a motorist (regulated by Colorado Revised Statutes section 42-4-901) or he can do a pedestrian turn, as defined in paragraph b. This gives cyclists an additional right not held by operators of other vehicles.

    Here is what CRS 42-4-901 says:



    Paragraph b is a description of how to do a pedestrian left turn.

    Paragraph c says that if there is a sign directing how to turn left, follow the sign instead of paragraph a or b.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
    Every time we let a vehicle pass there is a little bit of compromise. But compromise allows the city to function and allows cyclists to function in the city. The trick is not to eliminate compromise but to learn how to work safely within it.

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  23. #23
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
    No, I'm not playing games. The point of including the "right curb" language is to reinforce the prohibition against riding against the flow of traffic.
    OK dokey Pete.

    -G

  24. #24
    52-week commuter DCCommuter's Avatar
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    I'm going to change my answer.

    Normally, when the edge of the roadway is not the edge of the road -- when there is a shoulder or parking lane -- vehicles are required to stay on the roadway and not drive on the shoulder or parking lane. The language "right curb or edge of the roadway" gives cyclists the option of riding in that space between the edge of the roadway and the edge of the road, if they so choose. Since the connector is "or" the choice is up to the cyclist.

    I still say it's a confusingly written law.
    The United States of America is the only democratic nation in the world to deny citizens living in the nation's capital representation in the national legislature. District residents have no vote in either the U.S. Senate or U.S. House of Representatives. www.dcvote.org

  25. #25
    thomas masini lives
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCCommuter View Post
    I'm going to change my answer.

    Normally, when the edge of the roadway is not the edge of the road -- when there is a shoulder or parking lane -- vehicles are required to stay on the roadway and not drive on the shoulder or parking lane. The language "right curb or edge of the roadway" gives cyclists the option of riding in that space between the edge of the roadway and the edge of the road, if they so choose. Since the connector is "or" the choice is up to the cyclist.

    I still say it's a confusingly written law.
    Thanks again DC.
    not a 2ksuck'r

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