LittleBigMan

Here's the scenario:

I was climbing a tall hill on a 45 mph. two-lane artery, approaching the top where I make a left on the crest at a small intersection. Looking in my mirror, I saw a cluster of cars approaching at about 500 ft back. I was almost to the top, but I knew they would reach me at about the same time I was ready to turn left.

I signalled left early, and signalled long. But since I've had knot-heads try to pass me on a blind hill when I moved center, I stayed to the right. I didn't trust anyone, but looked back (a full head-turn) to see if the lead driver was going to yield.

She slowed quite a bit, but despite my repeated signalling, she proceeded to pass me, blocking me from making my turn, opening the way for the rest of the group to violate my right-of-way. It wouldn't have been a big deal for me, I wasn't in danger, and my next move would have been to wait for the group to pass, then make a u-turn back to my intersection, or something like that.

Just as she was alongside me, I just got mad, and shouted into her open window, "Hey!!!"

To my suprise, just then, I heard a police loudspeaker:

"If someone's turning left, you have to stop!" I didn't know a police car was in that cluster of cars. (I was actually close enough to hear the woman inside the car say, "HUH?" in confusion.)

She stopped.

That was a really nice left turn.

Hocam

Cool! I wish Philly cops would use their loudspeakers for people that run red lights, park in the bike lane, use the bike lane like a turning lane and throw trash at me.

There was some kind of accident on down the street from me with the road blocked off by a patrol car. I was planning on going through where the accident was, but asked the cop "Can I get through?" and he told me

"You can do whatever you want, you're on a bike. Just be careful."

I was kind of amazed and ended up just going up a block and making a left.

gosmsgo

She probably just passed you because you never moved over to turn.

I would have done the same thing. She slowed, you never made you move so she went on.

dr. nate

That was nice of the cop. Although I bet the lady was probably still confused well after you made your turn.

-Nate

seafoamer

Awesome!

divergence

What right-of-way?

The fact that you're signalling a lane change doesn't give you any right-of-way over the people who are already in that lane. They can slow and let you in, but that's a courtesy, not a requirement.

If you had moved left earlier, when the cars were further back, then you would have clear right-of-way to the lane you occupied. If you wait until the cars are too close for a safe lane change, then you have to wait for them to pass unless one of them decides to yield to you.

I'm not "siding with cagers" on this point; it's often the car driver who believes that just because they're signaling a move, the cyclist should yield to them. They're wrong in that case, and I'm just as wrong if I think that as a cyclist I can establish right-of-way by singaling.

John E

Sorry, I am with "divergence" on this one, but I admit that I often resort to a two-part left turn or to stopping and waiting for a big gap, instead of trying to fight my across high-speed traffic.

Az B

I disagree. The last time I did that, I moved all the way over to the left of the lane. The woman in question (babbling away on her cell phone) simply crossed the double yellow and passed me anyway. She nearly ran me right over.

I agree with original poster. Stay right until you can make sure it's clear. It's much easier to make a Uturn 100 ft down the road than it is to reinsert your intestines into your abdominal cavity.

Az

littlewaywelt

depends how large the laceration is and whether your intestines are in a pile or spread out down the road.

noisebeam

So if your riding far right and sticking left arm out and/or looking back you are in process of negotiating a left merge. It is courteous for faster vehicle drivers to slow and let you merge, but not legally required.

If one does not respond by merging left when a driver has slowed, I would not expect a driver to then stop or slow to let you complete a turn from the far right once you are at the point where the turn is desired.

Once you have moved over and are using full lane and are signaling a left turn, the driver must slow for you and must not overtake on left. If you move over far enough left, drivers can pass on your right.

Al

Sir Bikesalot

But this wasn't a lane change; he was in the left turn lane. If it was an all-car scenario, there would be no possibility of passing on the inside and thus no question of right-of-way (everyone takes their turn in the order they arrived). But since he was on a bike and he didn't take the full lane, drivers could easily pass on the left.

That said, my feeling is that the lady in the SUV didn't do anything illegal, as the cyclist essentially ceded the lane by remaining on the right. She could have assumed he intended to turn alongside the cars on their right side (which I've seen many times).

Then again, as others have pointed out, you put yourself at risk of being rear-ended if you do take the lane. But really not any more so in any other situation where car and bikes share the road.

Cyclaholic

There are times when I'll signal and take the lane just like anyone in a motorised vehichle would. It would be considered by some as 'vehichular cycling', the rest of just just refer to it as riding with traffic. But there are times when I won't for the reason stated by Az.

Experience has taught me that similar vehichular techniques lead to different results based on the type of road I'm on. They work well in medium-heavy traffic where the average speed is abut the same as mine and the top speed is only a little higher than mine, it also works well on quiet suburban local roads. It doesn't work too well on fast arterials, or just about anywhere where there's high speed flowing traffic with no shoulder, limited lanes (only 1 or 2 in each direction), especially on winding roads with poor sight lines.

The op should have either signalled and completely taken the lane early, or waited on the shoulder and executed a u-turn once traffic was clear. Signalling a turn then staying to the side just created confusion.

divergence

I didn't get that impression from reading the original post...and as I reread it now, it still sounds like LBM was on the right side of the through-traffic lane, signaling a lane change/left turn.

If it was actually a left-turn lane, then I understand why he was angry with the woman who passed him, and I agree with the cop for chewing her out. If it was a through lane (and if there's nothing else about the story that I misunderstood), then LBM and the cop both yelled at someone who had done nothing wrong.

gcottay

As described, the driver would have broken the law here in Illinois. One cannot legally left-pass a left-turning vehicle signaling a turn.

The rider, it seems to me, acted legally and did many things right, but created some confusion. While the hand and arm was saying "Left turn," road position was saying "Not really."

It would have been better, I think, to either take the lane before the cars were close or to stay right, slow down, wait for traffic to clear and then take the lane. Depending on the situation, either option makes sense.

When lanes the lanes are wide enough, I've been known to invent some law and do my left turns from very near the center line. So far, no road pizza, no close calls, and even a few pleasant remarks.

Mel_bikes

I have been nearly hit, just barely dodged the idiots, when doing EXACTLY this. Sitting on the double yellow line on a 15mph road at the entrance to a college taking a left turn. It has happened twice WHILE I was signaling my left turn in to the college, no more than 150 ft from the beginning of the road. I was doing 15mph so I have NO IDEA what speed the idiots were doing as they approached me from behind while I signalled AND sat on the yellow line, eliminating their "right" to pass me.

Thank fully they did not hit my out streached hand. And the one "gentleman" who got out to have words with me, got worked over by the 80 year old woman who saw the entire incident.

why2not

I know this is probably an unacceptable veer from the never ending battle of good vs evil (VC vs non VC or vice versa), but speaking of cops "defending" cyclists.

There's a stretch of road I'm typically on about the same time frame whenever I ride my "standard" century loop. About once a month or so. Invariably, I'll have a cop use me as his stalking horse. I'll get close passed, the cop will go by & have the close passer pulled over up the road a bit. I'm on this road for about 7 miles & he'll typically pull 2-3 people over (I'm pretty sure he's only warning them, he's about his business pretty quickly).

I don't mind a bit.

LittleBigMan

Gosmsgo, that's a good absentee analysis, but if you had read my post more thoroughly, you would have understood that my failure to take the center of the lane was due to my extensive experience with knotheads that pass me on a blind hill anyway, regardless of lane position, which still effectively blocks my left turn and endangers me and everyone else through risk of head-on collision with traffic coming up the other side of the hill.

I hope your assertion that you also drive that way is an incorrect statement.

LittleBigMan

As you clearly indicate, right-of-way is determined by the fact that I was already in the lane, and had been so since before those cars even saw me. As the police officer correctly determined, I had the right-of-way over all overtaking traffic.

I am amazed at the number of self-appointed instructors here who haven't done their homework.

LittleBigMan

Read the original post again.

There was not turn lane. Just a two-lane street. I was occupying the only lane available.

Please show me the Georgia traffic code which states that a cyclist must be in the center position of a lane to be considered occupying that lane. Otherwise, submit your suggestion to the GDOT for a revision of the traffic code.

While vehicular cycling practices, such as destination positioning, are frequently the best way to ride a bike, they should not be confused with state law, since they are superfluous to traffic code, and only serve to help cyclists navigate more effectively.

There is no law against violating vehicular cycling principles.

LittleBigMan

A refreshingly on-topic post, especially for the A & S subforum.

LittleBigMan

This is my standard practice.

However, (once again I wonder why folks seem not to be reading my post,) my experience on the crest of this hill (two lanes, no passing, 45 mph. limit, no shoulder, blind hill) is that when I take the center of the lane in front of overtaking traffic, some motorists will pass me anyway.

In other words (let me make myself very clear, and forgive the bold print,) TAKING THE CENTER POSITION OF THE LANE TO PREVENT PASSING DOES NOT STOP DRIVERS FROM PASSING. THIS CREATES A HAZARD FOR ME IN THIS CASE BECAUSE THE HILL IS COMPLETELY BLIND. SO, IF TAKING THE CENTER OF THE LANE DOES NOT PREVENT PASSING, AND DOING SO CREATES AN ADDITIONAL HAZARD, THERE IS NO BENEFIT TO IT.

In fact if I am not in the center when someone tries to pass while I'm signalling a turn, I'm not put in harm's way by a sudden swerve back into my lane as the overtaking motorist tries to avoid the sudden appearance of an oncoming Hugh Jass dump truck flying up the blind side of the hill.

By the way, I avoid turning left from the center line as it allows passing on my right, and can imprison me between two lanes of opposing traffic with no way out in an emergency.

LittleBigMan

My visit to A & S has certainly been an educational field trip.

BikEthan

Given the circumstances I would have done the same thing. You can't trust the drivers to be aware of you and you certainly can't trust them not to be smart enough not to pass you even though you're obviously signaling a left turn. Better to go when it's a sure safe thing than put yourself into a potentially deadly situation.

On topic: I once t-boned the right rear quarter panel of a car who pulled out in front of me from a stopped position. I was going downhill and probably traveling at about 30-35mph. She pulled up to the stop sign, stopped, edged out a little, stopped again, and then sloooowly pulled out in front of me, couldn't stop in time but I also couldn't get behind her because she was going too slow and I couldn't go around the front because there was oncoming traffic. She pulled over and got out of her car and started givin gme a hard time for hitting her car. I don't think she even checked to see if I was OK. Amazingly I kept a cool head. There was a fire or some kind of medical emergency nearby and so a few EMTs came over and checked me out, I was fine, a little bruised but all in all OK. They also called the police who after asking each of us individually what happened gave her a ticket on the spot for pulling illegally from a stopped position. Nothing came of it (amazingly the bike was fine and I didn't even have to go to the doctor) but at least she got the ticket in case anything did come of it.

I always find it nice to hear about police officers backing cyclists up.

As for people saying that it was OK for her to pass you on the left. Passing someone on the left who is signaling for a left turn is illegal and incredibly likely to cause an accident. Although the laws are often fuzzy in areas bicycle related generally a bicycle is supposed to follow the same laws as cars, and cars are supposed to treat bicycles as vehicles, but as we all know the reality is very different. Personally I try to use the rules when they work and apply some common sense when they'll put me in a dangerous situation.

Sir Bikesalot

I'd also worry about cars going straight. If you take the lane, left-turning cars may pass you on the inside anyway, and straight-going cars may try to squeeze by on the right. If the hill is truly blind, I'd just go to the sidewalk and cross as a ped. It sounds a bit risky otherwise.

Mos6502

No, actually it is required. Replace the bicycle with a car. If you are in a car, waiting in the lane to make a left turn - it is illegal for the person behind you to pass you on your left while you are waiting to make the left turn (for one, if you're waiting there is probably oncoming traffic, so it's stupid to pass a left turning car - for two if the car is turning left, and you try to pass on the left, the turning car can turn right into you as you pass - that's why it's illegal).