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  1. #1
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    Interesting situation on my ride this morning, was I correct?

    I was on the last section of my commute here in San Diego. This section of the ride is in a business park with a very wide two lane road coming up to a side street on the right. This side street is also wide, with no road markings of any kind. None of these streets have any sidewalk or bike lane. As I came up to make my right turn there were four pedestrians crossing the side street about half way across heading in my direction.

    I did notice a car coming up behind me. I signaled my right turn and slowed a bit to give the peds a bit more time to cross, expecting I would swing a little wide to avoid them. The car made a right in front of me swinging wide. I gave a loud "HEY!" to indicate my disapproval with the maneuver he just pulled.

    The guy pulled over, rolled down his window so we could discuss the matter. There was no yelling, just a discussion of the rules. Having ridden in Boston for many years, his opinion was that if I was at the far right of the road, I was essentially in the "bike lane" and should of held my line into the turn. Of course that would have required that I hit the peds or stop. He agreed that the turn he made was dangerous and that he would look up the laws to be sure.

    I thanked him for having the discussion and went on my way.

    Except for screaming at him is the first place, was I correct in this situation?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    He agreed that the turn he made was dangerous and that he would look up the laws to be sure.
    You live in a different town than I do.

  3. #3
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    I was on the last section of my commute here in San Diego. This section of the ride is in a business park with a very wide two lane road coming up to a side street on the right. This side street is also wide, with no road markings of any kind. None of these streets have any sidewalk or bike lane. As I came up to make my right turn there were four pedestrians crossing the side street about half way across heading in my direction.

    I did notice a car coming up behind me. I signaled my right turn and slowed a bit to give the peds a bit more time to cross, expecting I would swing a little wide to avoid them. The car made a right in front of me swinging wide. I gave a loud "HEY!" to indicate my disapproval with the maneuver he just pulled.

    The guy pulled over, rolled down his window so we could discuss the matter. There was no yelling, just a discussion of the rules. Having ridden in Boston for many years, his opinion was that if I was at the far right of the road, I was essentially in the "bike lane" and should of held my line into the turn. Of course that would have required that I hit the peds or stop. He agreed that the turn he made was dangerous and that he would look up the laws to be sure.

    I thanked him for having the discussion and went on my way.

    Except for screaming at him is the first place, was I correct in this situation?
    I think the way you handled it was fine... apparently the motorist did not have the awareness of all the traffic at the time. He was only concerned about himself.

    Where did this take place... just out of curiosity.

  4. #4
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    I would have stopped and waited for the peds to cross.

    This is also why I don't (with some exceptions) make right turns from the far right of the lane, but instead closer to the center. Otherwise you can get right hooked (or left crossed) while making a right turn.

    But you handled it fine.

    Al

  5. #5
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    > Where did this take place... just out of curiosity.

    This was actually Palmer Way & Impala Dr Carlsbad, CA.

  6. #6
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    You did fine.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  7. #7
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    ... This was actually Palmer Way & Impala Dr Carlsbad, CA.
    We are nearly neighbors, separated by an airport -- I work in the Carlsbad Airport Centre business park, which is immediately southwest of McClellan/Palomar.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  8. #8
    Crankenstein bmclaughlin807's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    I was on the last section of my commute here in San Diego. This section of the ride is in a business park with a very wide two lane road coming up to a side street on the right. This side street is also wide, with no road markings of any kind. None of these streets have any sidewalk or bike lane. As I came up to make my right turn there were four pedestrians crossing the side street about half way across heading in my direction.

    I did notice a car coming up behind me. I signaled my right turn and slowed a bit to give the peds a bit more time to cross, expecting I would swing a little wide to avoid them. The car made a right in front of me swinging wide. I gave a loud "HEY!" to indicate my disapproval with the maneuver he just pulled.

    The guy pulled over, rolled down his window so we could discuss the matter. There was no yelling, just a discussion of the rules. Having ridden in Boston for many years, his opinion was that if I was at the far right of the road, I was essentially in the "bike lane" and should of held my line into the turn. Of course that would have required that I hit the peds or stop. He agreed that the turn he made was dangerous and that he would look up the laws to be sure.

    I thanked him for having the discussion and went on my way.

    Except for screaming at him is the first place, was I correct in this situation?
    Sounds to me like he pulled the exact same maneuver that you did.... rather than stop and wait for traffic to clear, he pulled out and made a wider turn than he normally would have...

    I'd say you were both slightly 'wrong' in that you SHOULD have stopped to wait for the peds to clear the intersection.

    I'd have to agree with the bit about holding your line, though... don't go from far right to the middle of the lane WHILE making a turn... nobody can predict that. Either start and finish your turn from the right, or take the lane before the turn and hold it through the turn, THEN decide whether you should be positioned to the right or in the center of the lane.

    Stay safe out there.
    "There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson

  9. #9
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    So he was turning right and overtaking someone else who was turning right while pedestrians were crossing the entrance to the road being turned into. This means that he was, apparently unaware of the pedestrians already crossing which might cause you to swing a little wide.

    It would seem that he was not allowing a cyclist sufficient room to manouevre, by not allowing a reasonable space for right of way (I assume that cyclists are allowed some lateral space [3' ?] according to state law?). It would also seem that he assumed that you knew he was going to turn right at the same time that you were - again, is he allowed to do that in state law? To my mind, it would be an unreasonable demand to make of someone you are overtaking. In the UK, it is for the overtaking driver/rider to make sure that the road ahead of their direction of travel is clear.

    On the basis of your description, the only minor criticism which any of us might make is that you might be a litle more aware of the possiblity of an overtaking car also turning right by engine sound/gear changing, etc. In his case it would seem that he was legally in the wrong, but you were, perhaps, slightly situationally less alert than might have been possible.

  10. #10
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    I would have stopped and waited for the peds to cross.

    But you handled it fine.

    Al

    Agreed.
    Or, slowed to a crawl. I wouldnt have swung wide.
    On our part, we need to convey predictability just
    as we expect it in return.
    Great job of being containing what could have been a
    volatile confrontation, though

  11. #11
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    Let me clarify the "holding my line" bit a little. I did not pull into the middle of the lane before making my turn. I just went a little past the corner of the intersection. I was still not past the center of the side road before I turned.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by atbman View Post
    So he was turning right and overtaking someone else who was turning right while pedestrians were crossing the entrance to the road being turned into. This means that he was, apparently unaware of the pedestrians already crossing which might cause you to swing a little wide.
    This was exactly the situation. The argument I made was that if I were a car, would you zoom by and make a right turn in front of me? The reply was that since I was in the "bike lane" he had every right to make his turn. It's essentially a right hook from my point of view.

  13. #13
    Fattest Thin Man Az B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    You live in a different world than I do.
    Fixed.

    In all my years and miles of riding, I've never, ever had anyone from the seat of a car discuss anything even remotely rationally.

    I think you did fine. I probably wouldn't have yelled, but obviously, that's not a big deal.

    Az

  14. #14
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Nobody, you, the driver, the peds, go hurt, so you can't have done much wrong.
    I would have done the same thing, signaled, waited, that you did. Likely I'd have been far enough out in the lane that if the car wanted to pass he'd have had to drive into oncoming traffic to do it. But you didn't get hit, so I'd call that good. SOmetimes cars will try to pass you at totally inappropriate times, and that's just the way it is.
    Not too much to say here

  15. #15
    Senior Member capejohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    IThe guy pulled over, rolled down his window so we could discuss the matter. There was no yelling, just a discussion of the rules.
    The whole story is very unusual. Very rarely is there any civilized discussion. It's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. Just unusual.
    Bike riding New England gentleman.

  16. #16
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    To parrot some of what has already been said:

    On a bike I probably would have placed myself in the middle of the lane before reaching the intersection. Whether I did that or not I would have held my line through the turn, even if it meant slowing or stopping for the peds.

    In a car I would have either passed before the turn or waited until after the turn. I would not have tried to pass in a turn. A wide lane does not equate to a bike lane, and even if it did he had no business attempting to pass in a turn.

  17. #17
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Az B View Post
    Fixed.

    In all my years and miles of riding, I've never, ever had anyone from the seat of a car discuss anything even remotely rationally.

    I think you did fine. I probably wouldn't have yelled, but obviously, that's not a big deal.

    Az
    Hmmm, I have had just the opposite situation... and basically it probably all depended on my approach. I have had many a civil conversation with motorists. Usually the result is that they continue doing what they believe is correct... but on a few rare occasions I get a "I didn't know that." Hopefully in those latter cases they change their behavior.

    Helmet Head can even confirm such a case where he has seen me discuss a car/bike situation with a motorist.

  18. #18
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
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    IMHO, if you were planning on going wide and essentially taking the lane you should have done so before the turn to indicate to the driver that that was your intention, but no harm no foul. At least the guy was nice/rational enough to stop and discuss it without screaming.
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    This would interesting to find out. I think sharing the lane is only for moving straight ahead. I believe two road users sharing one lane during a turn is a no-no.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    I signaled my right turn and slowed a bit to give the peds a bit more time to cross, expecting I would swing a little wide to avoid them. The car made a right in front of me swinging wide. I gave a loud "HEY!" to indicate my disapproval with the maneuver he just pulled.
    The requirement for passing any vehicle is to be able to do so safely. It would seem in this case, it was really not safe to pass because one could imagine numerous things that could have happened, leading to a collision. He was not driving defensively. Passing on a turn seems fairly risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    He agreed that the turn he made was dangerous and that he would look up the laws to be sure.
    If he concidered his actions as "dangerous" before he made them, then he clearly made a mistake. Having the "right of way" doesn't mean that one is excused from the responsibility of doing something dangerous. Everybody has the responsibility to take action to avoid collisions regardless of any "right of way" issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirlight View Post
    was I correct in this situation?
    In my opinion, what you did was (fairly) reasonable and what he did was unreasonable.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    Since there was not two marked lanes going in the same direction, it sounds like the driver should read Section 22100 of the California Vehicle Code, Subsection (a) in particular.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

  22. #22
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    FWIW MD law (not sure if CA has anything similar):

    (a) Right turns.- If the driver of a vehicle intends to turn right at any intersection, he shall approach the intersection and make the right turn as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.
    Basically the driver of the vehicle has to be in the same position as a cyclists when making a turn.
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  23. #23
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    FWIW MD law (not sure if CA has anything similar):



    Basically the driver of the vehicle has to be in the same position as a cyclists when making a turn.
    Same law in CA.

    Motorists don't read laws... they just do what they feel they need to do to satisfy their immediate needs.

    Of course most cyclists don't read the laws either.

    Usually lawyers are the law readers.

  24. #24
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    Yep that's a problem.
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  25. #25
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Same law in CA.

    Motorists don't read laws... they just do what they feel they need to do to satisfy their immediate needs.

    Of course most cyclists don't read the laws either.

    Usually lawyers are the law readers.
    Only the laws that help their case, they seem totally ignorant of laws which detract from them winning.

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