genec

I'm not absolutely sure as I don't know Hayek... but I believe that the economical situation in China is also proving your point... Overall China is still under government control, but they have allowed individuals to participate in a version of controlled capitalism which has lead to individual wealth.

geo8rge

In order for people to switch to cars they would have to be within biking distance of work and shopping. That would require painful changes in zoning laws, or a revolution in 'telecommuting'. It is a fact that most places in the US are zoned for low density housing. Increace the density and people would bike more.

For example I can never understand why massive suburban and rural malls are not surrounded by high rise apartments.

Helmet Head

Yes, China is moving the opposite direction on the road to serfdom, away from central governmental control and inevitable serfdom, while we are moving toward it.

The kicker is we move in that direction regardless of whether the Democrats or the neocons are in charge. Ron Paul represents the hope for America. Sorry, this belongs in P&R, but Brian made that political statement...

Bekologist

this doesn't belong in P&R if all you punters simply stop introducing political and social theory into what was meant to be a discussion topic regarding flip-flopped road usage and the mechanics of managing vastly fewer cars than bikes.

Helmet Head

I didn't mean the whole thread belongs in P&R Bek, just the political diversion.

JusticeZero

All sorts of bad premises in there.

Why do vehicles drive at 55-65 MPH? - They are designed to run best at that speed by auto makers.
Why do auto makers design vehicles to run 55 MPH? - Because that is the safe and legal operating speed of a car.
Why is that the safe operating speed of a car? - Because the roads are designed to support travel at a design speed of 55 MPH.
Give an engineer a design speed and he can design a road to be "safe" at any speed, be it 5 mph or 500 mph.
Why are roads designed to be driven on at 55 MPH? - because the speed limit in the U.S.A. is 55 MPH.
Why is the speed limit 55 MPH? - Oh, that's just some arbitrary number they pulled out of their collective saddle-holes that was related to how fast people were zooming away on various roads and things at the time.

If the roads were mostly filled with bicycles, it would be a major safety consideration to adjust the travel speed of trucks, etc. Thus, the speed limit would be changed (it has changed in the past) and auto makers would design their next fleet of cars to run best at that new speed as the sweet spot.

BarracksSi

Sort of, but general idiocy kills even more than simple speed differential. I drove on the autobahn in Germany for the first time a few days ago, and despite the massive speed differential (our van topped out at 155 km/h, yet the fast German sedans & wagons were cruising by at maybe 250), I felt a lot safer out there than I do in the DC area at any speed.

genec

What if the Nash equilibrium were instead applied to the situation of motoring and cycling... of course each "actor" in the game would have to see the benefit of advancing their "opponent" for the greater good.

And naturally it would mean that all involved would have to see beyond their own immediate selfish goals.

I think this is why something like the Autobahn, referenced above, works.

BarracksSi

It really does.

I was in the far right lane, only doing about 130-140 km/h , closing on a slower truck while two small vans were gradually approaching me to pass on my left. I lifted a bit while the first of the two vans passed, then, in my mirrors, I watched the second van also lift off, giving me space to move over. All three of us passed the truck smoothly.

Here in DC, that second small van would have accelerated to prevent me from passing the truck.

I gotta say, as I was riding a Supershuttle van back from the airport to my house, I was almost scared. It's competitive on the freeway here, and for no real reason, either. It's like everyone either dares each other to see how far beyond the speed limit they'll drive, or stays resolutely at the limit in a similarly arrogant display of self-righteousness.

My short experience on the Autobahn just wasn't like that at all. Everyone drove only as fast as they were comfortable -- and everyone was willing to allow others to drive at their own speeds. They stayed as far to the right as they could, watched their mirrors, and moved to allow passing.

We really can't drive worth a damn around here.

dynodonn 

One thing about Germany, it is very hard and expensive to get a drivers license, and very easy to lose one, a complete opposite from here in the US. I understand that they have some very stiff fines and rigorous policing, I hear that it is a 500 US dollar fine to even make a rude gesture at another driver.

BarracksSi

You can even get fined for running out of gas on the Autobahn. There's also a requirement to use winter tires during the winter months, so you'll cars like a Mercedes S-class with steel wheels & winter tires. Your car must also be kept in good repair, which explains why I never saw a claptrap like the Ford Tempo I saw last night with bottomed-out rear suspension and a smashed taillight.

The study guide for the written exam is 30 sheets of 30 questions each. I remember a question that has a picture from the driver's seat showing four kids running out of the street -- three were running to the left, one girl running to the right, and they were leaving a ball behind. The question was, "What should you reckon might happen?" Two of the answers were, "The girl might turn around to join her friends," "Someone might turn to retrieve the ball,"; I can't remember the third answer. Both on the study guide and the actual exam, there can be more than one right answer to a question, and I think you need to get all of them for the question to count as correct (but I'm not sure on that one).

AlmostTrick

Very interesting. I wish it was more like that here in the states.

genec

Amen... and yet so many of our cycling brethren decry Europe as being somehow "less."

BarracksSi

Shoot, I wish I knew as much at 16 about driving as I learned over the subsequent decade. Sometimes I think that I got through those years without any serious accidents purely out of luck.

AlmostTrick

Some of these same "cycling brethren" also think driver training, traffic law enforcement, and drivers themselves, don't need much improvement here. It makes me wonder if they drive and ride on the same roads as me.