Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 220
  1. #1
    Senior Member Bicure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Just how dangerous IS cycling?

    Okay - here's what I wanna know:

    How much MORE dangerous is cycling than driving from a per capita standpoint?

    That is, what PERCENTAGE of cyclists are injured/killed compared to drivers?

    What we have to correct for is this: ONLY injuries/fatalities to DRIVERS vs cyclists can be included, and not others injured BY drivers.

    I wanna know how much more dangerous it is to be the operater of a bicycle than a motor vehicle.
    "What about the 55,000 Americans who'll die on the highways this year? That's nearly 6 or 7 times the number that'll get killed in Vietnam. Why aren't you up in arms about that? Or is dying in a car somehow moral?" - Jack Webb as Sgt. Joe Friday lecturing some no-good dirty hippie-punks on Dragnet 1968

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,296
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It depends which dangers you consider. Danger of death do to automobile collision? Danger of death due to heart disease? Danger of death due to either automobile collision or heart disease?

    It's difficult to say what the risk of death is due to automobile collision for cyclists because it's difficult to say how many cyclists are out there. Motorists are easy to count because they need to register. Cyclists are hard to count unless they are dead. More bicycles were sold than automobiles in 2007, yet we all know that there aren't more cyclists than motorists on the road.

  3. #3
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ky. and FL.
    My Bikes
    KHS steel SS
    Posts
    3,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You are assuming it IS more dangerous to ride a bike than ride in a car?
    Not too much to say here

  4. #4
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
    My Bikes
    1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
    Posts
    15,000
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Typical common statistics claim that the injury and fatality rates for competent cyclists are comparable to those for average motorists. I am arguably safer in my VW Passat wagon (unblemished driving record since 1971, five-star NHTSA crash test ratings) than on my bicycle, but this does not factor in two significant additional factors -- the immense health benefits of aerobic exercise, particularly cycling, and the social responsibility to minimize my contributions to traffic congestion, resource depletion, and greenhouse gas emission.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
    Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
    Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
    Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069

  5. #5
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Sacramento, California, USA
    My Bikes
    Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper
    Posts
    29,898
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What does your definition of "injury" include? Would it include road rash? Sunburn? Allergic reactions due to insect stings?
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  6. #6
    Senior Member EnigManiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    BikeE AT, Firebike Bling Bling, Norco Trike (customized)
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    In Toronto, the city's bike committee, Toronto Police Services and most independant cycling advocates agree that there are about 400,000 daily adult cyclists during the peak 26-week season and as many as 10,000 year-round cyclists with varying numbers in between during the off-season, depending on weather (often through April, September and October there are approx 300,000). Over a year, there are about 12 million total cyclists on the roads. Only about 1,000 incidents are reported each year. Advocates suggest there may be as many as 5 times that amount that go unreported. Assuming that they went unreported because the incidents were minor or inconsequential, that would mirror the official study that shows that only 3 deaths occured in 2007 and less than 50 serious injuries. The vast majority of car-bike interactions resulted in minor or no injuries or damage whatsoever. It would seem that cycling is exceptionally safe, as a result.

    In fact, the statistics show that cycists, in spite of their numbers, rank third in 'vulnerable' users of the road, well behind pedestrians (29 fatalities in 2007) and scooter/motorcycle operators (4 fatalities).

    What do those numbers really mean though? There are about 400 million cars on the road in Toronto during an average year, compared to 12 million cyclists, but there are probably 1200 million pedestrians.

    Generally, assessments are made by calculating how many hours are spent riding a bike versus driving a car. However, an arguably better assessment is achieved by studying how many miles (kilometers) are travelled. Cyclists have a significantly higher liklihood of fatality based upon distance---almost double the risk that motorists face, but to be fair, both numbers are very low: 0.039 - cyclists and 0.016 - motorists. But for hours spent, the trend flip-flops with 0.26 for cyclists and 0.47 for motorists (source: http://www.raisethehammer.org/index....sue=2007/09/09)
    The slow down is accelerating

  7. #7
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    9,596
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The first good page on this subject I read was here

    http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

    He sums up by saying,
    it seems that bicycling is less dangerous or no more dangerous per hour than driving a car, and since motorists spend more time driving, the lifelong risk of the average motorist is two to four times greater than that of the average cyclist without the 20X compensating health benefits of cycling. In addition, motor vehicles kill over five thousand pedestrians each year while bicycles kill at most one or two...Putting all this together, a person who chooses a bicycle over an automobile for daily travel and who obeys the traffic laws and uses care at all times will experience greatly improved health and a greatly reduced risk of death as a result. Thus rather than being dangerous, cycling greatly reduces major health risks.
    I like this page too

    http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/helmets.html

    where the author breaks down some numbers and says,

    Too many numbers? There are two important points to take away from all this talk of fatality and injury rates:

    1. On a per-mile basis, the odds of being killed or sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about the same as the odds of being killed or injured while out for a walk.

    2. On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning (this author has, in fact, been struck by lightning -- albeit indirectly -- so he is well aware that "extremely improbable" is not quite the same as "impossible"); the odds of sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about half the odds of sustaining a serious injury while out for a walk.

    and a side point...

    Being drunk really screws up your ability to do anything right.

  8. #8
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,724
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    The first good page on this subject I read was here

    http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

    He sums up by saying,

    I like this page too

    http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/helmets.html

    where the author breaks down some numbers and says,

    Sadly, the very page where you cited as "the first good page" was authored by a guy that was killed by a drunk driver.


    Sort of puts a different perspective on the whole safety issue, eh?

  9. #9
    8speed DinoSORAs Ed Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Oxford, UK or Mountain View, Ca
    Posts
    2,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This is such a hard question to answer. OK we can find statistics on a national basis, state basis and even city basis, but they are all averages that do not take into acount any of the following:

    Rider experience, traffic skills
    Roads taken by the cyclist, traffic levels
    Time of day
    Protective equipment, lights etc.

    Of course there is risk associated with riding a bike. Our perception of these risks is unique to each of us based on our riding experience and environment. Either we ride, reasoning that these risks are not sufficient to deter us, or we choose not to ride.

    Ed
    Get a bicycle. You will certainly not regret it, if you live.

  10. #10
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    9,596
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Sadly, the very page where you cited as "the first good page" was authored by a guy that was killed by a drunk driver.


    Sort of puts a different perspective on the whole safety issue, eh?
    Yeah. It shows the importance of fighting drunk drivers. The bike wasn't the problem. The drunk behind the trucks wheel was.

    His death doesn't negate any points he's made does it?
    Last edited by closetbiker; 01-23-08 at 06:10 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ky. and FL.
    My Bikes
    KHS steel SS
    Posts
    3,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The first girl I ever kissed;
    My best friend from middle school;
    My wife's favorite uncle;
    My brother-in-law;

    Would all say riding a bike was safer than driving a car,






    -If they hadn't all been killed in car accidents.
    Not too much to say here

  12. #12
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bicure View Post
    Okay - here's what I wanna know:

    How much MORE dangerous is cycling than driving from a per capita standpoint?

    That is, what PERCENTAGE of cyclists are injured/killed compared to drivers?

    What we have to correct for is this: ONLY injuries/fatalities to DRIVERS vs cyclists can be included, and not others injured BY drivers.

    I wanna know how much more dangerous it is to be the operater of a bicycle than a motor vehicle.
    It's hard to nail down, but my quick pick is that:

    1) Riding a bike can make you more likely to get injured due to falls.

    2) The risk of death per trip could be about the same.

    3) The health benefits of cycling are so great that they outweigh any risks, making cycling safer overall.

    4) The more you know about safe cycling, the safer you'll be, just like the more you know about safe driving, the safer you'll be.
    No worries

  13. #13
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Wynnum, Australia
    My Bikes
    1998 Cannondale F700
    Posts
    3,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Sadly, the very page where you cited as "the first good page" was authored by a guy that was killed by a drunk driver.


    Sort of puts a different perspective on the whole safety issue, eh?
    Yeah, it indicates that driving drunk is more dangerous than cycling. Mostly to others, of course, but nevertheless...
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  14. #14
    Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped. BarracksSi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    My Bikes
    Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?
    Posts
    13,858
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigManiac View Post
    Generally, assessments are made by calculating how many hours are spent riding a bike versus driving a car. However, an arguably better assessment is achieved by studying how many miles (kilometers) are travelled. Cyclists have a significantly higher liklihood of fatality based upon distance---almost double the risk that motorists face, but to be fair, both numbers are very low: 0.039 - cyclists and 0.016 - motorists. But for hours spent, the trend flip-flops with 0.26 for cyclists and 0.47 for motorists (source: http://www.raisethehammer.org/index....sue=2007/09/09)
    Just to argue the other direction --

    To me, it makes sense to compare driver-hours and cyclist-hours versus distance traveled. Although it seems like people judge their trips (whether by bike or car -- or bus or train, too) based on distance, they're really thinking about how long it'll take. People around here are willing to travel at another time of day in order to avoid the rush hour; their trip won't be any shorter distance-wise, but they'll spend less time in transit and feel less frustrated.

    I'd guess that people will be comfortable spending up to half an hour -- at most -- to get someplace where they want to go (a work commute doesn't exactly count, then.. ). I'm talking about the grocery store, restaurants, movie theaters, etc. Whether they're on a bike or in a car, they'll spend roughly the same amount of time doing roughly the same thing.

    Both a motorist and a cyclist would spend the same amount of time in transit, then -- but, usually, the motorist will travel much farther just because their car moves faster. That'll skew statistics that rely on mileage traveled.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Bicure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wow - GREAT responses all!

    It kind of reflects what I've come to believe, which is that despite our strong sense of vulnerability & profound awareness of the general insanity of kar kulture, biking is, on any measurable level, not significantly more dangerous than driving a car.
    "What about the 55,000 Americans who'll die on the highways this year? That's nearly 6 or 7 times the number that'll get killed in Vietnam. Why aren't you up in arms about that? Or is dying in a car somehow moral?" - Jack Webb as Sgt. Joe Friday lecturing some no-good dirty hippie-punks on Dragnet 1968

  16. #16
    Senior Member Bicure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yikes.

    This IS a bicycling forum, ya?



    (EDIT NOTE: This post was in reponse to what I felt was a pretty harsh reply by iltb-2, who has now deleted that post, and is responding - once again harshly, I feel - to my response to his post that no longer exists `cause he deleted it... Is this what they call "crazy-making? Have a cookie, iltb-2!)

    THANK YOU, MAKEINU! (I JUST READ YOUR POST BELOW ABOUT ILTB-2! (THE CRAZY-MAKING POST DELETION IS A FAVE METHOD OF TROLLS TO MAKE OTHERS LOOK FOOLISH, SO THAT MAKES SENSE NOW!)
    Last edited by Bicure; 01-24-08 at 01:38 PM.
    "What about the 55,000 Americans who'll die on the highways this year? That's nearly 6 or 7 times the number that'll get killed in Vietnam. Why aren't you up in arms about that? Or is dying in a car somehow moral?" - Jack Webb as Sgt. Joe Friday lecturing some no-good dirty hippie-punks on Dragnet 1968

  17. #17
    Still Around
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    285
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bicure View Post
    Yikes.

    This IS a bicycling forum, ya?

    Yes. But not a necessarily a support group for Woodstock Wannabes or Counter Culture Cultists who think all bicyclists share their views (or should share them.) You might find the Living Car Free contingent more to your liking.

  18. #18
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,724
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    Yeah. It shows the importance of fighting drunk drivers. The bike wasn't the problem. The drunk behind the trucks wheel was.

    His death doesn't negate any points he's made does it?
    Well, Ken is another statistic. I wonder how he would figure that into his work.

    And the drunk is probably still alive. Hopefully in jail... but the way these things tend to work when cyclists are involved, even that is not assured.

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,296
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bicure View Post
    Yikes.

    This IS a bicycling forum, ya?

    Just a heads up for you, new guy. iltb-2 has a long history of trolling bike forums, both here and elsewhere. The moderators have tried banning him (account bans, IP bans, the whole enchilada), but he's so crazy and obsessed that he keeps sneaking his way back in.

    Needless to say if you want him to go away (like everyone does) then you'll have to make an individual effort and add him to your ignore list like I'm going to do right now.

    P.S. The reason I didn't have him on my ignore list already because last I encountered him his user name was "I-Like-To-Bike". I didn't realize he was now using iltb-2, but it's obvious that it's him because he always blathers the same off topic nonsense of the "selfrighteous" "contingent" of "group thinkers" (these are favorite terms of his), with vague references to hippies such as "Woodstock Wannabes" or "Counter Culture Cultists" (these terms change from post to post). Combined with the new user name (iltb-2 instead of I-Like-To-Bike) and little caption "Still Around", it's obvious that it's him, crazy as ever and desperately obsessed with trolling any and every post.
    Last edited by makeinu; 01-24-08 at 08:00 AM.

  20. #20
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bicure View Post
    Yikes.

    This IS a bicycling forum, ya?

    Yep, I think you're right.

    No worries

  21. #21
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    9,596
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Well, Ken is another statistic. I wonder how he would figure that into his work.

    And the drunk is probably still alive. Hopefully in jail... but the way these things tend to work when cyclists are involved, even that is not assured.
    Just like the second page's author (who is well aware that "extremely improbable" is not quite the same as "impossible"), Ken did figure in the deaths to cyclists caused by drunks, so I don't think he would have changed his page one bit (if he could).

    His page had an update on the trial. Over a year later, the case over Ken's murder finally went to trial. Jimmy Don Rodgers pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 20 years. Neither Ken's son, sister, nor brother wanted him to be punished as revenge, but were concerned that he might kill someone else if he were released. He may possibly be released in a year under very strict probation conditions, but if he fails any condition he will return to prison for the rest of his sentence.
    Last edited by closetbiker; 01-24-08 at 08:29 AM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    9,596
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bicure View Post
    Wow - GREAT responses all!

    It kind of reflects what I've come to believe, which is that despite our strong sense of vulnerability & profound awareness of the general insanity of kar kulture, biking is, on any measurable level, not significantly more dangerous than driving a car.
    I considering the danger of cycling to involve the way in which one cycles (and that includes looking out for those who are not careful and avoiding them as you often can).

    Check out this report on the death of cyclists.

    http://www.helmets.org/bcstudy.htm

    At the bottom, there are brief descriptions as to what the circumstances were that led to the deaths. I think any reasonable adult could have avoided the vast majority of them. If you could eliminate those tragically avoidable (stupid) deaths, there hardly would be a death toll at all. The fact that even if you include these incidents, and then consider just how many people ride, and the benefits still outweigh the risks, I'd have to wonder why all those people are taking the (by comparison) huge risk of driving everywhere.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,296
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Another comment about the "danger of cycling". I think it's a bit unfair to attribute cyclists who happened to die cycling to the danger of cycling.

    After all, when motorists die it is usually the result of collision with motorists. When cyclists die it is also usually the result of collision with motorists. Obviously the dangerous activity is driving a motorized vehicle. To separate out whether the perpetrator of this dangerous activity just so happens to also be the victim is nonsense.

    It's like leaving a *** unsecured and unlocked in your home. Although doing so may make you less likely to die yourself, it also increases the chances that your family might be injured in a *** accident or the chance that you accidentally shoot an innocent, etc, etc. Things are dangerous when they kill people, not just when they kill the owner.

    Considering only the exposure to danger experienced by the owner, even at the expense of danger to others is just plain selfish. The fact that, even within this biased perspective, cycling still fairs about even with motoring only highlights just how selfish motoring really is. The truth is that motoring is overwhelmingly more dangerous. It's like waiving around a locked and loaded *** in public with your finger on the trigger. Although you may or may not hurt yourself doing it, you have a damn good chance of hurting someone.

    Motoring is dangerous because motorists are a danger both to themselves and to the people around them.
    Last edited by makeinu; 01-24-08 at 08:17 AM.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Fear&Trembling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    637
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by makeinu View Post
    Just a heads up for you, new guy. iltb-2 has a long history of trolling bike forums, both here and elsewhere. The moderators have tried banning him (account bans, IP bans, the whole enchilada), but he's so crazy and obsessed that he keeps sneaking his way back in.

    Needless to say if you want him to go away (like everyone does) then you'll have to make an individual effort and add him to your ignore list like I'm going to do right now.
    Thanks for the heads-up on the ignore list - you're my first!
    Last edited by Fear&Trembling; 01-24-08 at 08:21 AM.

  25. #25
    Third World Layabout crtreedude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Costa Rica
    My Bikes
    Cannondale F900 and Tandem
    Posts
    3,067
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I know it isn't going to happen most likely, but if there were no cars, what would the death statistics be like? Or, if those who drove cars realized it was a privelege, not a right and gave others the right of road too - include pedestrians.

    Living here has really driven this home since in our small community, have a vehicle does not mean you own the road but you have to share it with everyone else. As someone said, it isn't cycling that is dangerous - it is the motorists.

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •