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Let's talk speed limts.

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Let's talk speed limts.

Old 02-10-08, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by iltb-2
I assume that, since you seem to be a sensible fellow, you don't care what speed the motorists do as long as they give you the proper distances/clearances and right of way when passing, turning and pulling out from side roads.

Fixating on reducing vehicle speed limits, without regard to the real cause of cyclists' risk from motorists (i.e. driver inattention to actual conditions), is another feel good-accomplish nothing significant advocacy campaign.

That would be correct. In all the tiresome whining I do about the S.FL area
one needs to keep in mind people are going a good 15mph over the speed limit
anyway. 35mph here means 50 minimally, 55 on Fridays. If they give me
even 24" Im happy. I may have typed the other stuff too soon though.....
There are already laws on the books regarding safety for us. There is no
enforcement of any laws, speeding, 3 feet, or otherwise so its all moot, anyway.
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Old 02-10-08, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by iltb-2
Living/driving on a military reservation is no problem at all as long as you like complying with every rule that some smart guy dreamed up for a PowerPoint Presentation for someone at a higher HQ. Think mandatory helmet rule for all ages for all non motorized activities on wheels, confiscation by the police (i.e. all the stealing is done legally by the MP's) of all unlocked bikes, as well as jack booted enforcement of arbitrarily low speed limits.
The reason why so many obey the speed limits on-base is simple - certainty of enforcement by gung-ho 18-25 yr olds.
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Old 02-10-08, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BurghBiker
When a roadway is being built/reconstructed it is designed to accommodate the 85th percentile figure of what the motoring public actually drives, not the speed limit. The 85th is usually significantly higher than the posted speeds. This is done for "safety" reasons. The posted speeds are often arbitrarily assigned based on a location. For instance around here, within a city, 30 mph is the usually the max allowed speed regardless of whether the road is a neighborhood street or a wider arterial.
In California, a posted speed limit below the observed and documented actual 85th percentile is unenforceable. This means that the fastest 16% of all motorists determine the speed limit postings for everyone. Add another 5mph for enforcement leniency -- no one ever gets a ticket for going 28 or 29 in a 25mph zone.

I assume that, since you seem to be a sensible fellow, you don't care what speed the motorists do as long as they give you the proper distances/clearances and right of way when passing, turning and pulling out from side roads.

Originally Posted by iltb2
Fixating on reducing vehicle speed limits, without regard to the real cause of cyclists' risk from motorists (i.e. driver inattention to actual conditions), is another feel good-accomplish nothing significant advocacy campaign.
I disagree, in the sense that higher speed makes any collision more disastrous for those involved. Relative speeds between motor vehicles and bicycles also govern how suddenly a cyclist appears to a motorist, how much time a motorist has to react to the presence of a cyclist (or vice-versa), and the cyclist's ability to take the lane safely when necessary.
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Old 02-10-08, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
The reason why so many obey the speed limits on-base is simple - certainty of enforcement by gung-ho 18-25 yr olds.
Simply put ...there are penalties such as, but not limited to loss of driving privilage on base, loss of pay, demotion, article 15, etc. etc. Another thing is called discipline, something many today just don't seem to have or get the concept.
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Old 02-10-08, 08:58 AM
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It should be technologically possible now to have cars limit their speed to the speed limit of the road they're on automatically. I really don't think it would take much to do this and would be a boon to safety for all travelers. Any thoughts?
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Old 02-10-08, 09:21 AM
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This is what MD bike/ped fatalities look like compared to how well speeding is enforced. (Fewer tickets = more tolerant of speed limit violations.)
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Old 02-10-08, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by phinney
It should be technologically possible now to have cars limit their speed to the speed limit of the road they're on automatically. I really don't think it would take much to do this and would be a boon to safety for all travelers. Any thoughts?
Ya know, I wouldn't mind. I don't think that it would be useful anywhere but on freeways & highways (need enough time to get on, establish position, and "log in"; can't really do that with drivers darting on & off the street at every block in the middle of town), but it would really reduce the competitive BS that I see around here.

You won't have people trying to prevent passing (a regular occurrence here, totally opposite of what I witnessed in Germany), you won't have people hauling ass through busy traffic, and -- just as aggravating -- you won't have people holding up faster "85th percentile" traffic by sticking to the speed limit in the passing lane. Heck, you could even increase the speed limit since everyone would be driving more predictably.
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Old 02-10-08, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by The Human Car
This is what MD bike/ped fatalities look like compared to how well speeding is enforced. (Fewer tickets = more tolerant of speed limit violations.)
Hmm...

There are a lot of other factors that can be worked into ped fatalities, though. I'll bet that there aren't as many people in, say, Talbot Co. that would throw themselves in front of a bus just to collect injury settlement payments from the bus company. Maybe the cops in PG County are more concerned with violent crime than sitting around with radar guns.
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Old 02-10-08, 10:48 AM
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I use speed limits to judge how far over the speed limit i can go. 55 mph, go 60-65. 25 mph, no faster than 30. If you go slightly under the speed limit or even AT the speed limit, in Columbia, In a car, you get more abuse than cyclist going 15 mph in the lane. Its not uncommon for the speed of trafic on trenholm road (a 30mph posted limit) to exceed 45mph. I mean, everyone is going 15 mph over the limit. Speed limits dont really seem to mean much here.
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Old 02-10-08, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by John E
I disagree, in the sense that higher speed makes any collision more disastrous for those involved. Relative speeds between motor vehicles and bicycles also govern how suddenly a cyclist appears to a motorist, how much time a motorist has to react to the presence of a cyclist (or vice-versa), and the cyclist's ability to take the lane safely when necessary.
Well then, the simple fix/solution is to prohibit traveling on the highway by any device not capable of cruising at the "safe" speed. I doubt that is what you are advocating but it is the obvious conclusion to draw from your reasoning above.
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Old 02-10-08, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
Hmm...

There are a lot of other factors that can be worked into ped fatalities, though. I'll bet that there aren't as many people in, say, Talbot Co. that would throw themselves in front of a bus just to collect injury settlement payments from the bus company. Maybe the cops in PG County are more concerned with violent crime than sitting around with radar guns.
I'd bet that there is a much smaller percentage as well as number of pedestrians and cyclists in the traffic mix the farther one goes to the right on that graph; and that the percentage of higher speed rural and semi rural roads gets higher as one goes right along that same axis.
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Old 02-10-08, 11:13 AM
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Speed limit enforcement pendulum seems to swing every 2 or 3 years here in my city, usually several high profile accidents have to take place before any additional traffic enforcement takes place. The additional traffic enforcement lasts for a few weeks or months, then settles down until more high profile accidents take place again, but for now, I'll enjoy the more subdued traffic conditions.
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Old 02-10-08, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by iltb-2
I'd bet that there is a much smaller percentage as well as number of pedestrians and cyclists in the traffic mix the farther one goes to the right on that graph; and that the percentage of higher speed rural and semi rural roads gets higher as one goes right along that same axis.


I happen to have conversations with several of our state highway patrol officers, when they issued just warnings, very little results were seen in motorists behavior, but when they started issuing citations that equated into some stiff fines, only then that dramatic benificial changes in motorists' driving habits were observed.
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Old 02-10-08, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by iltb-2
I'd bet that there is a much smaller percentage as well as number of pedestrians and cyclists in the traffic mix the farther one goes to the right on that graph; and that the percentage of higher speed rural and semi rural roads gets higher as one goes right along that same axis.
Percentage of those who walked or biked as reported by the US Census (Counties not listed are unknown):

Baltimore City - 8.20%
Wicomico ----- 4.40%
Anne Arundel - 3.40%
St. Mary's ---- 2.70%
Montgomery -- 2.40%
Frederick ----- 2.30%
Prince George's 2.20%
Baltimore ----- 2.10%
Carroll -------- 2.00%
Harford ------- 1.80%
Howard ------ 1.70%
Washington --- 1.50%
Cecil --------- 1.10%
Calvert ------- 1.00%
Charles ------- 0.80%
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Old 02-10-08, 01:13 PM
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I don't favor lowering speed limits, they are low enough already.
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Old 02-10-08, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyle90
I don't favor lowering speed limits, they are low enough already.
then you probably identify as a motorist first and foremost, what are you doing on a cycling forum?
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Old 02-10-08, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
then you probably identify as a motorist first and foremost, what are you doing on a cycling forum?


Lowering speed limits will not change motorist behavior, but enforcing the limits all ready in place will go a long way in making bicycling safer.
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Old 02-10-08, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by phinney
It should be technologically possible now to have cars limit their speed to the speed limit of the road they're on automatically. I really don't think it would take much to do this and would be a boon to safety for all travelers. Any thoughts?
Yeah we do have the technology to do that and safety wise it would be prudent, bigbrother. Blackbox for cars have been around for awhile now to measure driving behaviour and tracking via GPS, it wouldn't be too hard to add cruise control.

This is an article from 2003 about blackbox.
https://www.forbes.com/columnists/for.../0811/084.html

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) determined this while investigating a fatal accident that, based on the skid marks and appearance of the bent steel, appeared to have occurred at 23 miles per hour. Was there a design flaw? General Motors let the investigators know that the car had stored its speed at the time of crash. The estimate was off by more than a factor of two. The car was doing 50mph.

Remember the scare about sudden acceleration in Audis? With event data recorders, we would have known from the beginning that the drivers had their feet on the accelerator, not the brake. How about the Ford Explorer rollovers? We would know what the g-forces were at the time of an accident. Job one for fixing something is to understand what went wrong.

It isn't only that black boxes can make cars safer. They can also make safer drivers. The Berlin highway safety administration found that after the city's police department started using data recorders in their patrol cars, damage during rescue trips fell by 36%. Also in Germany, a taxi company installed these boxes in its fleet and collision rates fell by 66%. In the U.S., Sunstar Emergency Medical Services found that black boxes reduced its ambulance accidents by 95%. If there were a drug as effective in saving lives, people would be clamoring outside the Food & Drug Administration for its approval.

Just knowing the box is there changes drivers' behavior. Fear of getting caught may be a more powerful motivator than fear of getting killed. Better still, these devices give real-time feedback to drivers when they are doing something dangerous. Ricardo Martinez, the former head of the NHTSA, remembers his days working ambulances in Louisiana. The vehicles had something called a Growler. If he accelerated too fast or took a corner too hard, the machine would squawk. If he didn't slow down, it would squawk louder and make a record of the transgression. When he got back to base, he'd have to explain the indicators. The Growler made him drive more safely.

Larry H. Selditz, owner of Road Safety, a ten-year-old firm in Thousand Oaks, Calif., has taken the idea and made it available for the family car. As he points out, teenagers drive much better when their parents are sitting next to them. His black box device is always there watching the driver. When the kids come home, the parents can download driving information to review.

Road Safety has sold some 10,000 black boxes (at $4,000 a shot) to operators of ambulances, squad cars and other high-risk vehicles. On Sept. 8 the firm will launch a $280 consumer version. It won't have all the furbelows, but it will report on safety-belt use, acceleration/deceleration and four other measures of potentially unsafe driving. "


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Old 02-10-08, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by The Human Car
This is what MD bike/ped fatalities look like compared to how well speeding is enforced. (Fewer tickets = more tolerant of speed limit violations.)
False causality. It's more likely that the underlying cause of both outcomes is population density. I like the "balance" implied in the background image.

Originally Posted by MrCjolsen
I say drive as fast as you want on the freeway.
Seriously bad idea. Driving is safer when the relative speed of vehicles is close.
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Old 02-10-08, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by John E
In California, a posted speed limit below the observed and documented actual 85th percentile is unenforceable. This means that the fastest 16% of all motorists determine the speed limit postings for everyone. Add another 5mph for enforcement leniency -- no one ever gets a ticket for going 28 or 29 in a 25mph zone.

I assume that, since you seem to be a sensible fellow, you don't care what speed the motorists do as long as they give you the proper distances/clearances and right of way when passing, turning and pulling out from side roads.
You're correct. Ideally, I would like to see people respect the law but I know it's not going to happen. However, there are alot of things that could be done on roadways to help the situation. One is to not solely design roadways for the fastest drivers. Roadways can be geometrically adapted so that it is uncomfortable to drive at speeds higher than that intended. In some situations such as freeways, it makes sense to have high speeds (and wider shoulders). In others, such as urban arterials it makes little sense. Just lowering speed limits isn't the answer, because as it has been mentioned, it doesn't work. The answer needs to be more comprehensive and needs to consider the systemic problems.
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Old 02-10-08, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BurghBiker
Just lowering speed limits isn't the answer, because as it has been mentioned, it doesn't work.
the only reason it doesn't work is because the vast majority of transportation bureaucrats, law enforcement officers and judges are motorists first and foremost and the system is hopeless biased in favor of motorists.

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Old 02-10-08, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
then you probably identify as a motorist first and foremost, what are you doing on a cycling forum?
Because he rides a bicycle, and therefore has just the same reason to be here as someone that cycles everywhere.

Bikeforums.net, not rideonlyguys.net



I think #1 would be making a harder driving test, stiffer penalties for those without licenses, and higher penalties for unsafe maneuvers. I see way more people jerking and slamming on brakes unnecessarily being way more likely to cause an accident that someone JUST doing 55 in a 50. It's generally however a combination of the both, but I highly doubt the knee-jerk-response driver doing 50 instead of 55 is going to fare much better.
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Old 02-10-08, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by iltb-2
Well then, the simple fix/solution is to prohibit traveling on the highway by any device not capable of cruising at the "safe" speed. I doubt that is what you are advocating but it is the obvious conclusion to draw from your reasoning above.
Not if we acknowledge the fundamental unalienable natural right to mobility.
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Old 02-10-08, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by remsav
Yeah we do have the technology to do that and safety wise it would be prudent, bigbrother. Blackbox for cars have been around for awhile now to measure driving behaviour and tracking via GPS, it wouldn't be too hard to add cruise control.

This is an article from 2003 about blackbox.
https://www.forbes.com/columnists/for.../0811/084.html
Of course the issues of personal freedom will be involved with a black box.

But I have to laugh. Years ago I programmed a GPS to record a drive to Disney Land from San Diego that my son was doing with his friends. I told him it was there, I told him why, and and I told him that I could tell if it was tampered with. (I was quite familiar with the function of the unit, having used it many times for tactical analysis of long distance sailing races.)

Sure enough, I caught him speeding... not just once, but for a long stretch... He was grounded for 1 month from, driving, for that.

The technology has been available for a long time.
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Old 02-10-08, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by John E
Not if we acknowledge the fundamental unalienable natural right to mobility.
You and I can "acknowledge" anything that sounds good, hip or trendy if we like, doesn't make it so unfortunately.
Is that fundamental unalienable natural right to mobility spelled out in the Constitution, the Bible, or what? Does the implementing legal document (or any other government document) use the phrase fundamental unalienable natural right to mobility or similar phrasing and "bicycling" in the same paragraph or even same section or chapter?
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