Trucker_JDub

I live out in the country so a lot of my miles are on curvy, hilly, country roads with a PSL of 45mph. The traffic isn't really bad; a car passes you every 1.5-3 minutes on average. There is almost no shoulder to ride on (6" average, some less then that) with a drainage ditch running along both sides of the road. I don't ride these roads after dark if I can help it. I'm wondering where is the best place to ride on these roads. What I have been doing is switching to the outside of the curves so if someone is running low in the corner I don't have to hit the ditch or risk getting hit by the car. On the straights I ride against traffic so that I can make sure that the driver sees me other wise I can hit the ditch or stop if I need to. I don't feel safe having cars over double my speed coming from behind me. After all a quiet car won't be heard until is 20' behind you and by then its too late to do anything.

What would be the best thing for me to do, or am I already doing the smart thing?

noisebeam

Get a rear view mirror.
Even for daytime make sure you have plenty of high visibility gear.
Always ride on the correct (right in US) side of the road.
Ride well into the lane when there is no traffic coming from behind you.
When you notice a vehicle coming from behind watch them and how they react to you - most will either slow or move a bit left. If in a very rare case they do not seem to notice you, stick left arm out and see if they then react.
Move right as they get closer if they have not already moved left to go around you.

Al

AlmostTrick

I ride in some of the same conditions. Riding on the left (wrong) side of the road is not the answer for your safety. Eventually you will have vehicles passing from both directions at the same time, then what will you do? I'd suggest riding in the center of the right (proper) lane. When a car comes up from behind you can glide a little bit right (to about right tire track) to signal you expect him to pass. Always keep a buffer on your right for emergency bailout. To help monitor overtaking traffic use a mirror as an aid to your ears.

JohnBrooking

In general, and especially on city roads with lots of intersections, it is thought to be much safer to ride WITH traffic than against, for reasons discussed elsewhere. Although I grant that a straight road with good sightlines and few intersections may change the safety equation somewhat, I would still counsel riding WITH traffic, not against, especially as you say your roads are curvy and hilly. Riding against traffic seems like it would compound the disadvantage the curves and hills already give you in terms of reaction time. Having a motorist able to see you coming at them on their side from 200' away on a straight road is much different than giving them only 50' or less due to a curve or hill, when you are coming at them with only a few feet of space. To repeat myself somewhat from the other thread I referenced, consider the closing speeds of a bike going 15 MPH and car going 35 MPH (or more on country roads!) heading towards each other (50 MPH) versus the car overtaking the bike (20 MPH). Then consider both vehicles having to completely stop to avoid a crash, versus only the motorist needing to only slow down to the bike's speed.

Now, I know the scariest thing about cars overtaking on country roads is drunk or distracted drivers, and we all know that does happen, and it is generally very bad for the cyclist when it does. Maybe seeing the guy coming will help you in that situation, maybe not. Probably there are not enough statistics to come to a conclusion. But although these crashes are often fatal, they are also relatively rare. We know about them because they are big news when they happen. And I suspect you can mitigate the risk somewhat by avoiding being out during the times that drunks are likely to be on the road.

I think the question is, is the increase of safety afforded by "seeing them coming" by riding against traffic greater or less than that given by riding on the right? I vote for the latter, even in cases of drunk or distracted driving. (Riding against traffic, you're just as likely to encounter one coming towards as you are one approaching you from behind when riding with traffic. And you're coming just as close to them, but the reaction time is less.)

Beyond which side of the road, I don't have any additional advice specific to curvy and hilly country roads, because I mostly just commute, and mostly not on those types of roads. Hopefully others can tell you more about that.

I second a mirror!

vincentpaul

+ 1 to John's comments. In particular, get a mirror. Also, some blinkies are now of sufficient lumenosity as to function as daytime running lights.

Trucker_JDub

My theory is would be able to closely watch what the other driver is doing. I would be able to see if we could make eye contact of if their head is down looking at a cell phone or something. I was thinking about the mirror as well. I do stay off those roads during the 'drunk hours'. The only time I would be out then is if I have a breakdown. If it gets really late I carry a cell phone and would start looking for a friend to come pick me up.

SweetLou

Why give a left turn signal? Or am I not understanding what you are saying?

evblazer

I ride some on similar stretches of road with somewhat higher PSL and much higher speeds. I find it very important to have a mirror and be more in the lane going _with_ traffic. Making eye contact and seeing what the drivers are doing instead of actually driving can lead to a very false sense of security I have found. This experience is from intersections mostly but with a total speed closing speed of 80mph or so if I was going against traffic I can't see it helping and it only means both the driver and myself have less time to react.

A bright daytime visible headlight, safety vest and being in a position where I can be seen I think are the best things I can do along with monitoring traffic in a mirror. Looking far enough ahead that you encounter a pothole or crack at the same time a car is coming up behind are important.

noisebeam

Just an attention grabber. Happens to be a left turn signal which if read as such should cause motorist to question what the cyclist may do and react.

Al

Helmet Head

I will only add that doing that will cause almost without exceptions motorists to slow down before they reach you, and that's what I usually use as my queue to move right to make it easier for them to pass.

Oh, and instead of sticking my left arm out like a left turn signal, I usually use a slow/stop arm signal. If you hold your palm open and facing them it seems to be universally understood as "I know you're there, I'm not moving, please slow down", whether they remember that it's supposed to mean "slow/stop" from driver training or not.

noisebeam

That works too and technically preferred.

But I think the left arm out may works better to grab attention as it is usually more visible (higher wider silhouette against sky vs. narrow close to body against ground)

Al

Helmet Head

I do that sometimes even though I'm going straight and not planning on any lateral moves, but only when there is a diverge and I want to make clear I'm taking the left tong of the fork.

By the way, I've recently discovered yet another subtle but surprisingly effective change.
Actually, I got this from the guys who do the videos of themselves. From looking at themselves in the videos they realized their hand signals were much more lame than they had thought. The left turn signal in particular is much less clear with the arm down at even a relatively small angle than if it goes straight out. Actually, I got that from them a few months ago. The most recent adjustment is focusing on the position of the hand during a left arm signal.

First, do a salute. Now, freeze your hand and move your arm so you can see your hand. Note how you're holding your hand. Fingers together.

So, what seems to work best is to hold the left arm straight out, no angle at all, parallel to the road, and I mean 90 degrees at the armpit, with hand open, fingers together (salute formation) and PALM FORWARD. Practice this at your desk to know what I mean. What this does is make your signal look more serious and assured.

It seems to help get motorists' attention noticeably better when negotiating to move or turn left.

noisebeam

About the lame left signal. I found myself guilty about a year ago when reviewing videos of my shadow when signaling. I now stick it straight (90deg) out palm forward.

Al

noisebeam

ps- the guy in the cube opposite me doesn't think that I look so serious with my left arm stuck out while trying to type with the other. In fact he is laughing, maybe that is cause I keep hitting my awards plaques off my cube wall.

Al

CommuterRun

Always ride with traffic. We had a cyclist get hit here recently on a 55 mph two lane highway, with no shoulder and narrow lanes, that I ride twice almost daily. I didn't see the crash, but suspect he was on the wrong side of the road.

Be Visible- Be highly visible. Multiple and tertiary active lights at night. I also run lights when it's overcast, foggy, raining, sunset & sunrise and when there are shadows across the road. I like a solid white shirt during daylight, although yellow, bright orange and bright greenish/yellow also work.

Be Predictable- Signal all turns. Do not change your line (road position) when being passed. If you keep moving further to the right for each pass, each successive motorist will expect you to move to the right for them as you did for the motorist before. A string of cars can squeeze you off the road.

Be Assertive- This one and the one above go hand-in-hand. A 6" shoulder is useless, and for all practical purposes, non-existent. On 55 mph two lane highways with no shoulder and narrow lanes, I take up the entire right half of the right lane. At times I use the entire lane. You want to make it plainly obvious that a motorist cannot pass without, at least partially, changing lanes. This will help protect you from side-swipes.

In the absence of traffic approaching from the rear you want to be in the middle of the lane to make you more visible to motorists approaching from the front. This helps mitigate one motorist attempting to pass another as they are approaching you. This is a very, extremely bad situation. Traffic from the rear will block for you in this situation, but you don't want to shift so far to the right as to give them the idea that they can squeeze through.

Not many hills around here, but on curves I use the entire lane. Positioning myself to the left in the lane increases the distance that I can be seen from for a curve to the right, and mitigates passing on the curve for a curve to the left.

A mirror is helpful for monitoring your 6, but you also want to be able to ride without one.

cc_rider

Speaking as a frequent driver, if we are going the same direction I can adjust my speed to time my pass so we are both safe. If you are going the opposite direction on my side of the road, all I can do is 1) hope that no one is coming the other way so I can change lanes 2) stop and hope no one rear ends me or 3) time our imminent collision and hope you get out of my way in time.
You may feel safer, but you've making the actual situation much more dangerous.
Mirror will help.

Helmet Head

Next time you figure something like that out, how about sharing the wealth?

RomSpaceKnight

Are you on a road bike or MTB. The MTB should be able to handle moving to an unpaved shoulder. ALWAYS ride with traffic. Get a rear view mirror. The sense of security it gives because you can see cars coming is awesome. Mine is a barend mirror on an MTB. Gives an great view behind me. Actually works better than the ones on my motorcycle. Blinkies, lights and reflective clothing will solve nighttime issues. Some rural highways around here with a posted 80-90 kph (50-55mph) have a small paved section just to the right of the whiteline down highway edge. It varies from 6" to 1.5". 6" is all I need to feel safe. Heavy semi rigs are an issue. There is not enough room for two trucks and a bicycle without a large paved shoulder.

SweetLou

Ok, it is a "left turn" signal you are using. I would recommend not doing that. One thing for safety is to be predictable and if you start giving hand signals and not doing what your signals mean, that could confuse drivers. Especially if they slow down thinking you are about to turn left, yet you don't. Then a little farther down the road, you do decide to turn left, give the signal and the driver has decided to try to pass you. The slow/stop signal would be better, because you could slow down a bit.

noisebeam

It came up in a thread when some other BF member pointed it out to me in a situation where I didn't need to signal, but did very lamely anyway. I then noted that in places I needed to very clearly signal that they could be further de-lamed.
If I recall right someone took me to task for not being more assertive with my signaling in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bLCTSocF_A

Al

Helmet Head

Being visible is good, but being conspicuous is better.

What's the difference? It's like the difference between a woman crossing the street, and a naked woman crossing the street. The naked woman is probably no more visible, but is much more conspicuous, even if the clothed woman is in bright yellow attire.

In other words, conspicuousness conveys an aspect of drawing attention that being merely visible does not.

So the issue is... how do we draw motorists' attention to ourselves, which being merely visible, even in our brightest and most gawdy clothes, does not do? Do we really need to all start riding in the nude? Arguably, a daylight flasher helps make a cyclist be more conspicuous. What else? LANE POSITION. Being where motorists are PAYING ATTENTION; being where motorists care, and are already looking for obstacles that could and would matter to them. By riding there is how we draw attention to ourselves, if being noticed is what we want.

Helmet Head

I have a vague recollection of that, but not of the palm positioning in particular.

noisebeam

I think my suggestion caused some confusion. I am not talking about the daily communication with other drivers signaling intent, signaling slowing, etc. which I do all the time with the correct signal to rear approaching drivers.

The left arm out (maybe even waving up and down) was meant as the last resort before bailing from road type attention grabber to a motorist who is bearing down on you with no signs (slowing, merging left, honking, etc.) of noticing you and with poor bail out options, not as routine communication.

Similar idea in this article about riding on rural AZ roads:
https://www.bikesafety.org/Corbett_ar...in_Arizona.htm
"If the over taker shows no sign of moving out (into the opposing lane) to pass you, weave your bicycle gently side to side to get their attention. The usual motorist response is to begin to move over.

If your weaving gets no response, get concerned fast and wave your left hand and arm up and down vigorously, while both observing the overtaking traffic and evaluating the roadside ahead as a possible place to leave the road.

If there is no response to your arm waving, you can wait until just before the vehicle gets to you, then slide over to your right a couple of feet, allowing considerably better clearance when they pass you."

Al

SweetLou

Oh, ok. That makes sense.

CommuterRun

I'm not riding nekked, no way, no how. Do you think it would work as well if I wear just a jockstrap?