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  1. #1
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Another cyclist instruction video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4nKKq02BU

    A continuation of the Lane Control Video series.

  2. #2
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    By the way, I recall that the video creators are visitors to the A&S forum. I think that you guys/gals are doing a real service for cyclists.

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    Hey, what's that dude doing on the cruiser riding VC? Doesn't he know that it's only for lycra-wearing road-bike-riding super cyclists?

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Hey, what's that dude doing on the cruiser riding VC? Doesn't he know that it's only for lycra-wearing road-bike-riding super cyclists?
    Not a cruiser... there were narrow tires on that bike.

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Oh one more comment... I wish more streets were like those shown in the video... I noticed in particular that even the right hand motorists were not driving fast enough to pass the cyclist in the left lane in the night shot.

  6. #6
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Oh one more comment... I wish more streets were like those shown in the video... I noticed in particular that even the right hand motorists were not driving fast enough to pass the cyclist in the left lane in the night shot.
    Personally, I think that more videos from people with different strategies explaining their choices in the appropriate environments would be great. Of course, this takes a lot of work. One reason why people who go through the effort -- Al does this too -- are making a real contribution, IMO.

  7. #7
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    Riding out in the left lane, and at night even, is perhaps one of the best ways to get killed. You can try to control the lane all you want,but that only works of drivers cooperate, and if they don't then the cyclist is always the loser, no matter how right he or she is.
    I ride through the intersection, stop, and then wait for the green light before continuing across the intersection down the other road.
    Changing lanes is, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous things you can do.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone Wrench View Post
    Riding out in the left lane, and at night even, is perhaps one of the best ways to get killed.
    That's odd, since I've never, ever heard of a cyclist being killed in that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notfred View Post
    That's odd, since I've never, ever heard of a cyclist being killed in that way.
    One on hand, not many cyclists do it. On the other hand, I do it often and I have to imagine that other cyclists do as well (I didn't invent the cyclist lane change ). I, too, have never heard of a cyclist getting killed making a lane change.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Not a cruiser... there were narrow tires on that bike.
    Well, I'm glad you bit Gene. That comment was for you

  11. #11
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Well, I'm glad you bit Gene. That comment was for you
    Hook line and sinker... but hey, I have a fat tire cruiser... and when you "take a lane" with that bike... oh man... it can sure get "noisy."

  12. #12
    Senior Member wheel's Avatar
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    Very nice, in showing the public how to ride.

    Video is only getting better. It is also the drivers worse enemy.

  13. #13
    genec genec's Avatar
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    I was thinking about getting a video cam... I believe the one noisebeam uses is the ATC 1000... I had no idea they were this big.



    I wonder how much having a big thing like that attached to your helmet influences the motorists around you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notfred View Post
    That's odd, since I've never, ever heard of a cyclist being killed in that way.
    Well, let me modify that to say that being out in that lane would make me very uncomfortable. Sheesh, everybody takes things so literally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I was thinking about getting a video cam... I believe the one noisebeam uses is the ATC 1000... I had no idea they were this big.

    I wonder how much having a big thing like that attached to your helmet influences the motorists around you.
    I'm pretty sure noisebeam has his attached to his handlebars. Doesn't look much different from a headlight there. Strapped to your head, I imagine motorists might think you were a bit odd if they noticed but otherwise, I can't imagine what would inspire them to act differently around you.

  16. #16
    www.chipsea.blogspot.com ChipSeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone Wrench View Post
    Riding out in the left lane, and at night even, is perhaps one of the best ways to get killed. You can try to control the lane all you want,but that only works of drivers cooperate, and if they don't then the cyclist is always the loser, no matter how right he or she is.

    Well, let me modify that to say that being out in that lane would make me very uncomfortable. Sheesh, everybody takes things so literally.

    Changing lanes is, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous things you can do.
    Hey CW, I hope you don't mind me conflating your two posts.

    If I may ask, what is it you think a motorist may do that makes such a maneuver so dangerous?

    I am going to guess (But please correct me if I am wrong!) that you fear the cyclist would be run down from behind. That fear is kind of irrational, as you would see with just a little consideration.

    Small animals like squirrels, cats and dogs have little chance of harming a motorist, yet they will perform extraordinary emergency evasion maneuvers to avoid them. I have seen folks swerve to avoid balloons blowing across their path on the freeway! My point is that motorists have been taught from their very first lesson to avoid striking things with their vehicle. This has been reinforced by repetitious behavior every time they even move a motor vehicle. It is deeply ingrained in every driver. The least likely place you would get hit by a motorist is centered in the lane in front of him.

    The exceptions are intoxicated drivers, impaired drivers (Medical) or someone who is psychotic. The likelihood of meeting someone in the first category is rare, and the likelihood declines in each of the other categories. I would point out however, your method of turning left (The two-step) doesn't offer any added protection from those groups.

    One of the defining characteristics of bicycles is their slow speed compared with motor vehicles. There is no time lag between spotting a cyclist and understanding that he is a slow vehicle. With no expectation of motorist style swiftness, a cyclist in the lane ahead is immediately perceived as an object the motorist must deal with. He must either slow down, or drive around him, most likely both. Only a homicidal maniac would entertain the thought of running you over. (Hint: They are not nearly as common as Hollywood makes them out to be.)

    It is by far a safer position controlling a lane than sharing one, turning left or not.
    Vehicular cycling techniques have not been tried and found difficult. They have been presumed difficult and not tried.

  17. #17
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    Hmmm...I will have to think about this more. Interesting points, but I always work on the assumption that all drivers are drunk, morons, or both so I am pleasantly surprised when I find out they're not.

  18. #18
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    another nice video that addresses a portion of the cycling population.

    I think the video is very useful to a substantial number of riders.

    I would be hard pressed to any fault in their riding.

    Where I might take issue with the video is not in the safety aspect but in the advocacy aspect of the video.
    If the implication, which is sometimes made in these forums, is that the maneuvers demonstrated in the video will allow any cyclist, any time to ride any where and that such techniques render moot any need for any special facilities for cyclists then I would take issue with it.

    Let me address the speed issue once again. Despite the claim in the comments section that the cyclists are going no more than 15-16 mph let me suggest that viewers cue the video to 3:29 and watch it for 10 seconds counting the pedal strokes- you'll see that it totals roughly 16-17 revolutions of the pedals in that time. 6x16= 96 rpm. Given the apparently flat, smooth roads and ideal weather conditions my guess is that the cyclist would be in at least an 80" gear. Meaning an overall speed over 21 mph. Which, in my opinion, is an appropriate speed to maintain when making a maneuver like the one being demonstrated in that section of the video.

    So, my issue is not with the manner in which the cyclists are riding but with the implication that:

    #1- speed of the cyclist is a negligible factor.

    #2- that all cyclists are capable and more importantly want to make such maneuvers.

    Cone Wrench will more than likely suffer the slings and arrows of having expressed his feeling "that being out in that lane would make me very uncomfortable."

    But his feeling is his feeling and I know many cyclists who feel the same way. I ride to work occasionally with my wife, who bikes regularly to work as well but almost exclusively on a bike path at anywhere from about 9 to 11 mph average. I once said to her, "shall I show you how I ride when I'm not with you?" I moved into the center of the right lane moved down the road at the speed of traffic, crossed into the left lane, signaled left and made the next turn that took me to the bike lane and waited for her.
    She made her way slowly in the right lane, as far right as practicable, got to the intersection. Pressed the cross walk signal and walked her bike across.

    She looked bemused and remarked, "you're nuts!" When I asked if she'd like to learn to ride that way she said, "no way."- and she means it. If not for the bike path she would never ride a bike to work, she is simply not interested. I don't think advocacy is about insisting that folks like cone wrench and my wife and many others ride the way I ride.

  19. #19
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I don't think advocacy is about insisting that folks like cone wrench and my wife and many others ride the way I ride.
    Absolutely agree.

    As a general principle, when things get tight, the closer you can match the ambient traffic speed, the safer you are. I learned that from my driving instructor, and it holds true for biking too, although it's often a lot harder to achieve.

    I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone that wants to ride a bike to ride at the sorts of speeds and on the sorts of busy roads that I do, any more than I think it's reasonable to ride a MUP at 40km/h. I do think, if increased ridership is a goal of advocacy, then providing for all levels of skill and fitness is important, not just the hammers, even if it's just a different set of techniques such as your wife employs. My wife rides with the kids to school most days, and uses the footpath pretty much as a wheeled pedestrian. It's simply safer that way since the 6yo can barely ride above walking pace. Solo, she's rides 'vehicularly' with the best of them.

    I kinda subscribe to the 'trickle dow' theory, that once newbies get the hang of riding, and get fitter and faster, there will be a naturaly tendency towards using the road more, but I have no evidence of that other than my own experience. If they don't, that's fine too.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  20. #20
    Yabba-Dabba-Doo! AlmostTrick's Avatar
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    Speed does matter and anyone watching the video can plainly see that the cyclists are keeping up a good clip. (I'd say around 20 mph, which is what I try to do in similar situations)

    Nothing in the video says to me that all cyclists should want to ride as shown. Instead, it demonstrates nicely that doing so properly is relatively safe. While some will say "not for me" others will be inspired to venture into traffic they previously feared. Either response is fine.
    Have Bike, Will Travel

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
    Speed does matter and anyone watching the video can plainly see that the cyclists are keeping up a good clip. (I'd say around 20 mph, which is what I try to do in similar situations)

    Nothing in the video says to me that all cyclists should want to ride as shown. Instead, it demonstrates nicely that doing so properly is relatively safe. While some will say "not for me" others will be inspired to venture into traffic they previously feared. Either response is fine.
    If speed of slower moving vehicles mattered much, we'd have an epidemic of street sweepers, garbage trucks, and postal vehicles as well as cyclists being hit from behind. For cyclists, being hit from behind is statistically the least common type of collision.

    You may fear this kind of accident the most, but though it may be counterintuitive you need to get over this fear to keep yourself safe. "Taking the lane" helps keep you safe from the other, likely kinds of accidents.

    Anyway, great video!
    Last edited by mattotoole; 04-03-08 at 11:36 PM.

  22. #22
    Living Life On Two Wheels knatchwa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
    Hey CW, I hope you don't mind me conflating your two posts.

    If I may ask, what is it you think a motorist may do that makes such a maneuver so dangerous?

    I am going to guess (But please correct me if I am wrong!) that you fear the cyclist would be run down from behind. That fear is kind of irrational, as you would see with just a little consideration.

    Small animals like squirrels, cats and dogs have little chance of harming a motorist, yet they will perform extraordinary emergency evasion maneuvers to avoid them. I have seen folks swerve to avoid balloons blowing across their path on the freeway! My point is that motorists have been taught from their very first lesson to avoid striking things with their vehicle. This has been reinforced by repetitious behavior every time they even move a motor vehicle. It is deeply ingrained in every driver. The least likely place you would get hit by a motorist is centered in the lane in front of him.

    The exceptions are intoxicated drivers, impaired drivers (Medical) or someone who is psychotic. The likelihood of meeting someone in the first category is rare, and the likelihood declines in each of the other categories. I would point out however, your method of turning left (The two-step) doesn't offer any added protection from those groups.

    One of the defining characteristics of bicycles is their slow speed compared with motor vehicles. There is no time lag between spotting a cyclist and understanding that he is a slow vehicle. With no expectation of motorist style swiftness, a cyclist in the lane ahead is immediately perceived as an object the motorist must deal with. He must either slow down, or drive around him, most likely both. Only a homicidal maniac would entertain the thought of running you over. (Hint: They are not nearly as common as Hollywood makes them out to be.)

    It is by far a safer position controlling a lane than sharing one, turning left or not.
    Some good points, I had just visited that site today from a recommendation from bicyclingadvocacy person. I think it is a wonderful thing to see. And it is true that from the time a person gets a license it becomes nature to grow through it and to not hit things. The wonder of lane control is if the driver is in such a rush then pass. At least the cyclist is seen riding with traffic increasing visibilitiy and maneuverability.
    When I go biking, I repeat a mantra of the day's sensations: bright sun, blue sky, warm breeze, blue jay's call, ice melting and so on. This helps me transcend the traffic, ignore the clamorings of work, leave all the mind theaters behind and focus on nature instead. I still must abide by the rules of the road, of biking, of gravity. But I am mentally far away from civilization. The world is breaking someone else's heart. ~Diane Ackerman
    Read More: Bicycling With Knatchwa

  23. #23
    Yabba-Dabba-Doo! AlmostTrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattotoole View Post
    If speed of slower moving vehicles mattered much, we'd have an epidemic of street sweepers, garbage trucks, and postal vehicles as well as cyclists being hit from behind. For cyclists, being hit from behind is statistically the least common type of collision, even though cyclists may fear it the most.
    I've noticed that lower speed deferential (higher cyclist speed) makes negotiating a merge easier, gives faster traffic coming up from behind more time to safely react to my presence, and generally makes for a more pleasant experience. This is why I think speed matters. When you ride in traffic do you ever feel the need to pick up the pace, or is any speed always good enough? Saying that riding at 20, 15, 10, even 5 mph, makes no difference is silly.
    Last edited by AlmostTrick; 04-03-08 at 11:33 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Oops, clicked the wrong link.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
    I've noticed that lower speed deferential (higher cyclist speed) makes negotiating a merge easier, gives faster traffic coming up from behind more time to safely react to my presence, and generally makes for a more pleasant experience. This is why I think speed matters. When you ride in traffic do you ever feel the need to pick up the pace, or is any speed always good enough? Saying that riding at 20, 15, 10, even 5 mph, makes no difference is silly.
    Lower speed differentials might be more comfortable but whatever the speed differential is, being hit from behind is still vanishingly rare.

    It's what traffic engineers fear too when they ban bikes from high speed highways, but there's no hard evidence that they should. If you have research that suggests otherwise I'd love to see it.

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