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Old 05-29-08, 06:13 AM   #1
nun
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I was driving and lost my cool

I was driving my car and making a left hand turn on a green arrow when a cyclist jumped the red light on the
other side of the road. I almost hit him and I was shocked at the stream of abuse I threw at him. I was angry at him for endangering his and my life and for giving cyclists a bad name. Have you found yourself driving a car and shouting at stupid moves by cyclists, and, let's be honest, done the exact same move the next day riding your bike?
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Old 05-29-08, 06:22 AM   #2
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I don't shout at them but I do wonder how long they'll survive their lack of skill and common sense, point out their mistake to any passengers that may be with me and explain that the individual is not really a cyclist and make a note to myself to ride properly and safely.
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Old 05-29-08, 06:25 AM   #3
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I can honestly say i have never blown a red light. or jumped a red light. I have mad my right on red either after a complete stop or slowed to > 5mph and ready to stop if traffic warented.


When you say jumped.. the light was still red while you where making a right or the light had just turn green and the cycelist got a better start than you?
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Old 05-29-08, 07:40 AM   #4
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I can honestly say i have never blown a red light. or jumped a red light. I have mad my right on red either after a complete stop or slowed to > 5mph and ready to stop if traffic warented.


When you say jumped.. the light was still red while you where making a right or the light had just turn green and the cycelist got a better start than you?
The OP was making a left, the cyclist jumped the light... probably came out from the red, right in front of the OP.

It's a dumb move by a cyclist... and if there is other traffic around... as in this case... a really bad example of cycling.
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Old 05-29-08, 07:40 AM   #5
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I can honestly say i have never blown a red light. or jumped a red light. I have mad my right on red either after a complete stop or slowed to > 5mph and ready to stop if traffic warented.


When you say jumped.. the light was still red while you where making a right or the light had just turn green and the cycelist got a better start than you?
I was turning on a green arrow, so the oncoming light was red
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Old 05-29-08, 07:54 AM   #6
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The move the cyclist was trying to do is a gutsy move that if you don't do it correctly, resluts in what happened here.

The idea is, if you know that there is going to be a left turn only arrow before your red (and oncoming traffic's red) turns to green, you can go straight through the intersection on a bicycle before any oncoming traffic starts to move. You need to be moving right after the cross traffic has cleared when cross traffic are just getting the red. If executed correctly, you are already in the intersection and crossing the intersection just as the left turn arrow turns on and you get through the intersection and on your way without interfering with oncoming left turning traffic (or anyone else for that matter).

I do it all the time, but it takes good timing and a quick sprint in a low gear to do it right. And, if you do it wrong, its a really easy way to get killed and/or piss off oncoming traffic.
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Old 05-29-08, 08:14 AM   #7
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The move the cyclist was trying to do is a gutsy move that if you don't do it correctly, resluts in what happened here.

The idea is, if you know that there is going to be a left turn only arrow before your red (and oncoming traffic's red) turns to green, you can go straight through the intersection on a bicycle before any oncoming traffic starts to move. You need to be moving right after the cross traffic has cleared when cross traffic are just getting the red. If executed correctly, you are already in the intersection and crossing the intersection just as the left turn arrow turns on and you get through the intersection and on your way without interfering with oncoming left turning traffic (or anyone else for that matter).

I do it all the time, but it takes good timing and a quick sprint in a low gear to do it right. And, if you do it wrong, its a really easy way to get killed and/or piss off oncoming traffic.

Not terribly smart. We have lots of nice semis round here that like to run reds. Also, I get irked with motorists who jump reds to make left turns in front of me when I have the right of way (especially when the second drivers assumes that the it is clear to do the same) and it is pretty hypocritical for me to do virtually the same thing.
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Old 05-29-08, 08:31 AM   #8
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AS Sam Rensho describes, riding thru a red on a opposing green arrow is bonifide defensive traffic cycling technique, despite it not following the rules of the law to the letter. perhaps the bicyclists' execution was flawed.

There's a three minute light at an intersection I've ridden thru often for many years. Heavy traffic in three directions, one street is very low traffic and signal intervalled as such. Coming off the very low traffic street, a bike will often miss the small window of opportunity to cross, then wait thru a LONG left turn light opposing, before turning to a 120 second arterial cross flow.

I have ridden thru that intersection after the opposing left turning traffic has cleared the intersection and I know I've got time before cross traffic gets the green. This allows me to ride another half mile or so ahead of traffic 'static' overtaking as the road moves towards a freeway feeder.

Reducing the overtaking traffic quotient by riding the opposing green is the most expedient and safest way to ride the intersection and road beyond I describe.

Nobody's complained, I feel its a smooth, daresay 'vehicular' movement of a bicycle, despite not according to the signalization at that intersection.



'not a real cyclist?' Please. Not a safety ambassador, perhaps, but DEFINETLY a real cyclist.

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Old 05-29-08, 08:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
The move the cyclist was trying to do is a gutsy move that if you don't do it correctly, resluts in what happened here.

The idea is, if you know that there is going to be a left turn only arrow before your red (and oncoming traffic's red) turns to green, you can go straight through the intersection on a bicycle before any oncoming traffic starts to move. You need to be moving right after the cross traffic has cleared when cross traffic are just getting the red. If executed correctly, you are already in the intersection and crossing the intersection just as the left turn arrow turns on and you get through the intersection and on your way without interfering with oncoming left turning traffic (or anyone else for that matter).

I do it all the time, but it takes good timing and a quick sprint in a low gear to do it right. And, if you do it wrong, its a really easy way to get killed and/or piss off oncoming traffic.
I can't agree with your tactics, but the incident I described went down like this: I was first in line and stopped on a red light waiting to turn left. I got the green arrow so that I could turn across
the oncoming traffic that was still waiting on red, except for the cyclist with a death wish that is. I don't agree with jumping red lights, but this guy not only jumped a red light, but took no notice that I was turning left and that breaks the rule given by most cyclists that they only run red lights when it's "safe" to do it.

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Old 05-29-08, 09:04 AM   #10
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AS Sam Rensho describes, riding thru a red on a opposing green arrow is bonifide defensive traffic cycling technique, despite it not following the rules of the law to the letter. perhaps the bicyclists' execution was flawed.

There's a three minute light at an intersection I've ridden thru often for many years. Heavy traffic in three directions, one street is very low traffic and signal intervalled as such. Coming off the very low traffic street, a bike will often miss the small window of opportunity to cross, then wait thru a LONG left turn light opposing, before turning to a 120 second arterial cross flow.

I have ridden thru that intersection after the opposing left turning traffic has cleared the intersection and I know I've got time before cross traffic gets the green. This allows me to ride another half mile or so ahead of traffic 'static' overtaking as the road moves towards a freeway feeder.

Reducing the overtaking traffic quotient by riding the opposing green is the most expedient and safest way to ride the intersection and road beyond I describe.
Nobody's complained, I feel its a smooth, daresay 'vehicular' movement of a bicycle, despite not according to the signalization at that intersection.



'not a real cyclist?' Please. Not a safety ambassador, perhaps, but DEFINETLY a real cyclist.
And this applies also to running any red light when doing so will not violate any other traffic's right of way. You are much safer up and moving on your bike because of fewer overtakers.
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Old 05-29-08, 09:13 AM   #11
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The move the cyclist was trying to do is a gutsy move that if you don't do it correctly, resluts in what happened here.

The idea is, if you know that there is going to be a left turn only arrow before your red (and oncoming traffic's red) turns to green, you can go straight through the intersection on a bicycle before any oncoming traffic starts to move. You need to be moving right after the cross traffic has cleared when cross traffic are just getting the red. If executed correctly, you are already in the intersection and crossing the intersection just as the left turn arrow turns on and you get through the intersection and on your way without interfering with oncoming left turning traffic (or anyone else for that matter).

I do it all the time, but it takes good timing and a quick sprint in a low gear to do it right. And, if you do it wrong, its a really easy way to get killed and/or piss off oncoming traffic.
Why do you do it?
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Old 05-29-08, 09:32 AM   #12
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A "defensive" cycling move that places all liability for any resulting collision on the cyclist seems to me to have have left the cyclist a bit "undefended."
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Old 05-29-08, 09:37 AM   #13
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Why do you do it?
I do it sparingly, but always (when its safe) at a certain fairly lightly travelled intersection where I am going to make a left hand turn one block past the intersection that I go straight on the left turn arrow.

The intersection is at the beginning of a wide 4 lane street with a median, that is posted for 30 mph but after this intersection, the traffic flow is closer to 50 mph. I go straight on the arrow and I have made my left turn before the traffic in back of me has even started to move.

The less traffic that tries to overtake me the safer for me.
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Old 05-29-08, 09:38 AM   #14
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You are much safer up and moving on your bike because of fewer overtakers.
2.5% of all car-on-bike crashes are of the motorist overtaking the cyclist variety. 5.9% of all car-on-bike crashes are left crosses.

Your math doesn't add up.
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Old 05-29-08, 09:43 AM   #15
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A "defensive" cycling move that places all liability for any resulting collision on the cyclist seems to me to have have left the cyclist a bit "undefended."
Best defense is a good offense?

Like I said, its a gutsy move that has to be executed almost perfectly otherwise you will at least get an earful from a rightly pissed off driver, like the OP, and possibly worse.

I don't do it at every intersection because it really takes a lot of concentration. First, you have to make sure that the traffic on the intersecting street has cleared and at the same time, see how quick the left turn car is "on the draw" and then make a split second decision on whether to go. As I said, not for the feint of heart.
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Old 05-29-08, 09:46 AM   #16
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Best defense is a good offense?
Not when it gets to a jury it isn't.
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Old 05-29-08, 09:54 AM   #17
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blue order, sam rensho is not describing collisions, hes' describing the most expedient and safest way to cross that light he's described.

I also describe the safest and most expedient way I cross on a specific opposing green left signal.

I think understanding ones' local traffic dynamics, understanding intersections you ride thru regularily is important for smooth execution of the ' opposing left hand green' intersection crossing.

There's another intersection, if i take the green left arrow for busses only, i move ahead of traffic approaching a serious pinch point. sometimes by disobeying strict traffic signalization a bicyclist can ride safer than if waiting for the green.....

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Old 05-29-08, 09:57 AM   #18
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blue order, sam rensho is not describing collisions, hes' describing the most expedient and safest way to cross that light he's described.
I know tha he's not describing crashes. I'm saying that it leaves the cyclist completely exposed for all liability if there is a crash, and that is not the "safest" way to cross a light.
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Old 05-29-08, 10:04 AM   #19
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i disagree. ' safest' in liability in court after a colission that may never happen, or safer on an everyday, on the ground reality basis?

Bicyclists are completely exposed to actual physical liabilities in a crash independant of legal responsibilities.
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Old 05-29-08, 10:18 AM   #20
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i disagree. ' safest' in liability in court after a colission that may never happen, or safer on an everyday, on the ground reality basis?

Bicyclists are completely exposed to actual physical liabilities in a crash independant of legal responsibilities.
"Safe" is what keeps you safe in a preventative sense, and it is also what keeps you safe if something goes wrong. If the choice is one of physical safety over legal safety, one would want to choose physical safety. Examples: (1) In a life or death emergency "If I don't make this move right now, I'm dead." (2) "There is absolutely no possibility of anything going wrong, and this move measurably increases my physical safety. Therefore legal liability is a moot point."

However, that choice between physical and legal safety is almost always going to be a false choice.

And as San Rensho can affirm, when one party is so completely at fault, there is no case presented to a jury. The party at fault just sucks up whatever losses that were brought upon oneself.
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Old 05-29-08, 11:17 AM   #21
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isn't running a red light still running a red light?
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Old 05-29-08, 12:16 PM   #22
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I honestly can say I've never freaked out on a bicyclist.I'm serious.When I see bikes I have no problem stopping,waiting for them to turn,or otherwise letting them get to where there going.I 've bicycled on the roads in all kinds of situations for 35+ years.Some years I do only 200 miles some years it's 4000 miles.I hate rude,impatient car drivers with a passion.It doesn't take much to wipe out a bike and it's rider with a car or truck but we all know that.Now that I'm riding bikes with my teenagers I'm even more careful on my bike or in my car.I've never been seriously hurt riding bikes and I've got about 3 or 4 traffic violations from driving cars in 26 years.Lot's of near misses in cars and close calls happen on bikes daily.Remember,most of the responsibility is in your hands for staying safe.Give bikes and motorists a wide berth and try to stay cool.Just my 3 cents.
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Old 05-29-08, 01:24 PM   #23
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..... If the choice is one of physical safety over legal safety, one would want to choose physical safety.......However, that choice between physical and legal safety is almost always going to be a false choice.
You state you think physical safety trumps legal safety, and i agree. your second half of the argument excerpted above falls flat in the real world.

when a motorist violates anothers' right of way, legality be dammned, that motorist has to take action. it might mean jumping the curb, coming to a complete stop in a travel lane, skidding off the road, etc....all illegal actions.

To address the OP, however, I no longer get upset at bicyclists or pedestrians breaking the laws... just yesterday driving my car(!! nursing a broken hip, otherwise I'd of been riding!!) I sawa some peds (dad and specially abled kid) at the crosswalk even though I had the green. they looked like they were going to bolt. I slowed down, and they crossed, AGAINST THE LIGHT!

Did i scream and yell out the window for their transgressions?

Heck no! take a chill pill, bro.

Expecting strict legal operation of ANY vehicle on the road, or pedestrian, to allow you unfettered use of the roads is a fools game.

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Old 05-29-08, 01:27 PM   #24
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I do it sparingly, but always (when its safe) at a certain fairly lightly travelled intersection where I am going to make a left hand turn one block past the intersection that I go straight on the left turn arrow.

The intersection is at the beginning of a wide 4 lane street with a median, that is posted for 30 mph but after this intersection, the traffic flow is closer to 50 mph. I go straight on the arrow and I have made my left turn before the traffic in back of me has even started to move.

The less traffic that tries to overtake me the safer for me.
Ever try just holding back and letting the first wave of traffic go ahead? That works too... and doesn't violate the law, doesn't set up the image of cyclists as scofflaws, and usually works just fine without the need for perfect timing and intense concentration. Just good timing and moderate concentration.
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Old 05-29-08, 01:38 PM   #25
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You state you think physical safety trumps legal safety, and i agree. your second half of the argument excerpted above falls flat in the real world.

when a motorist violates anothers' right of way, legality be dammned, that motorist has to take action. it might mean jumping the curb, coming to a complete stop in a travel lane, skidding off the road, etc....all illegal actions.
Yes, emergencies call for emergency measures.

Waiting for the light to change is not an emergency, and framing observing the law as choosing legal safety over physical safety is a false dilemma.
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