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Thread: Pob.

  1. #26
    Senior Member frymaster's Avatar
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    to further confound this thread, i would like to include rtms' definition of a cyclist:

    1) someone who rides a bike even when he or she does not have to.
    2)
    someone who owns a floor pump.

    the full article is at: http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2008...nature-of.html

    read it and discuss.
    "Let's try and keep the constructive answers in the commuting forum." --SheistyMike

  2. #27
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    I'm a guy riding a bike, obeying the rules of the road except when I'm not.

    "cyclists" are guys that take themselves way too seriously and agonize over stuff.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
    I think that's true, but I think it's because trend-setters set that example, and new cyclists who admire and look to them for cues follow, your elegant traffic-carving messenger archetype being one example.
    I strongly believe that each individual is responsible for his or her own behavior. Don't blame the messenger.

    The freedom of the bicycle comes with a great deal of responsibility. If you take all the freedom, you take all the responsibility too. This has very serious implications which those seeking to emulate messengers' riding styles probably don't recognize.

    In any case, these days the ratio of messengers to messenger-looking riders is very small. This is at once evidence of the working messengers' influence in the past, and lack of influence in the future.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    I strongly believe that each individual is responsible for his or her own behavior. Don't blame the messenger.
    I think it would be ludicrous to say that messengers should now be acting as responsible role models, just because trend-followers look to them for everything from style cues to riding cues. There may be valid reasons for messengers to be mindful of the traffic laws, but that's not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    The freedom of the bicycle comes with a great deal of responsibility. If you take all the freedom, you take all the responsibility too. This has very serious implications which those seeking to emulate messengers' riding styles probably don't recognize.

    In any case, these days the ratio of messengers to messenger-looking riders is very small. This is at once evidence of the working messengers' influence in the past, and lack of influence in the future.
    Well said.

  5. #30
    8speed DinoSORAs Ed Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobber View Post
    Flip it. All the finger pointing we as bike riders do to those who drive cars, the majority of whom are happy to coexist.
    Blimey dobber, be careful, you realise that actually makes sense?
    Get a bicycle. You will certainly not regret it, if you live.

  6. #31
    8speed DinoSORAs Ed Holland's Avatar
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    Besides the rest of the world* sees anyone on a bicycle as a cyclist.



    *those other than eedjits like us who spend time debating who might be a cyclist or not, despite their operation of a bicycle.
    Get a bicycle. You will certainly not regret it, if you live.

  7. #32
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    [QUOTE=Ed Holland;6960448]Besides the rest of the world* sees anyone on a bicycle as a cyclist.
    [QUOTE]


    Exactly. That is why, as a cyclist who drives his vehicle in a lawful, respectful, courteous manner (at least mostly) resents those asstards who do so in the opposet manner and thereby gives the whole 'velodumbre' (as our Spanish-speaking friends might put it) a bad repuation in the larger community.

  8. #33
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    ^^ good for a laff at least


  9. #34
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Moulton View Post
    There was a time when I used to come on this forum and contribute on a regular basis, but it was exactly this type of comment that stopped me doing that.

    The POB article is not about elitism, it is about safety. It is also about obeying the rules of the road. The biggest complaint that drivers of automobiles levy against us is that we run red lights and stop signs, ride the wrong way one-way streets, etc. etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
    That is why, as a cyclist who drives his vehicle in a lawful, respectful, courteous manner (at least mostly) resents those asstards who do so in the opposet manner and thereby gives the whole 'velodumbre' (as our Spanish-speaking friends might put it) a bad repuation in the larger community.
    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    ^^ good for a laff at least

    Laughable is the right word! Self appointed Safe Cycling Nannys smugly whining about the ill effects of the OtherCyclists™ who don't fit their own narrowly defined profile of a "Lawful," "Courteous," Respectful," RealSerious™ Cyclist.
    I would recommend that any poster who wants people to read only what they are thinking, instead of what they have actually written, (or made clear is satire or sarcasm) stick to blogs where only their approved version of Conventional Wisdom about Cycling is discussed, understood or permitted.
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 06-28-08 at 05:38 AM.

  10. #35
    Warning:Mild Peril Treespeed's Avatar
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    Real cyclist.
    Non semper erit aestas.

  11. #36
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    ^^^^^this!
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Laughable is the right word! Self appointed Safe Cycling Nannys smugly whining about the ill effects of the OtherCyclists™ who don't fit their own narrowly defined profile of a "Lawful," "Courteous," Respectful," RealSerious™ Cyclist.
    I would recommend that any poster who wants people to read only what they are thinking, instead of what they have actually written, (or made clear is satire or sarcasm) stick to blogs where only their approved version of Conventional Wisdom about Cycling is discussed, understood or permitted.
    The defintion of "lawful" is not those of the "self appointed Save Cycling Nannys but that of the duly elected legislators of the state and the duly elected members of our city councils and county commissions. It is the duty of every citizen to obey the law; that is the basis of civil society. Without that basic duty, we are reduced to the 'state of nature', in which (as a clever old Scot reminds us) life is "nasty, poor, brutish, and short."

    If you don't like the cycling laws, petition your elected representitives to change them; or, even better, run for office yourself. In the mean time, as a citizen it is your duty to obey the law.
    Last edited by Elkhound; 06-28-08 at 11:04 PM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treespeed View Post


    Real cyclist.
    Real mature.

    Most don't live on a remote island or on some mountain peak where we never have to interact with people. Most of us live in society, which requires that we accomodate one another. Ever heard of the Golden Rule, that ethical principle which almost every moral/religious/philosophical system (Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoisim, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Judiasim, and Christianity to name only a few)---"Do unto others as you wuld have others do unto you." ?

    The picture in your post harly exemplifies that principle---unless you really want others to treat you like that? Do you really want to live in the Hobbsean State of Nature? Read Golding's Lor of the Flies or Conrad's Heart of Darkness to see what happens to us when we strip away the veneer of civilization.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Self appointed Safe Cycling Nannys
    Excuse me, but aren’t most “experts” self appointed; I can’t think of too many elected ones. People write books, or become consultants in their field of expertise. Usually their experience is their credential.

    I have no problem with people disagreeing with my POV, but I object to immature name-calling. (This thread is discussing an article I wrote.) I post here under my own name, and the article is in my name so I take it personally.
    Last edited by Dave Moulton; 06-29-08 at 08:06 AM.
    History, photos and tech articles on my website. Also check "Dave's Bike Blog."

  15. #40
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
    The defintion of "lawful" is not those of the "self appointed Save Cycling Nannys but that of the duly elected legislators of the state and the duly elected members of our city councils and county commissions. It is the duty of every citizen to obey the law; that is the basis of civil society. Without that basic duty, we are reduced to the 'state of nature', in which (as a clever old Scot reminds us) life is "nasty, poor, brutish, and short."

    If you don't like the cycling laws, petition your elected representitives to change them; or, even better, run for office yourself. In the mean time, as a citizen it is your duty to obey the law.
    1. I see that you actually believe 'the law' has served us well and been extremely successful in avoiding unnecessary conflict in so many aspects of our public and private lives

    2. I also see that you have very little faith in the ability of people to understand personal boundaries, to understand the difference between safe and unsafe behaviour, and to act accordingly, regardless of 'the law'

    3. You place way too much faith in the ability of the minority to convince the majority to act on behalf of the minority

    4. you should spend a bit of time looking up and understanding the true definition of anarchy

  16. #41
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Moulton View Post
    Excuse me, but aren’t most “experts” self appointed; I can’t think of too many elected ones. People write books, or become consultants in their field of expertise. Usually their experience is their credential.

    I have no problem with people disagreeing with my POV, but I object to immature name-calling. (This thread is discussing an article I wrote.) I post here under my own name, and the article is in my name so I take it personally.
    Well good for you Dave. It is you, Dave, not I, who equates the phrase "self appointed Safety Nanny" and the rants of same as being an "expert" and/or consultant giving "expert" advice in their field of expertise. In this case, the field apparently is hectoring and badgering the Other Cyclists who don't share your "credentials" for Cycling Correctness.

  17. #42
    Warning:Mild Peril Treespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
    Real mature.

    Most don't live on a remote island or on some mountain peak where we never have to interact with people. Most of us live in society, which requires that we accomodate one another. Ever heard of the Golden Rule, that ethical principle which almost every moral/religious/philosophical system (Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoisim, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Judiasim, and Christianity to name only a few)---"Do unto others as you wuld have others do unto you." ?

    The picture in your post harly exemplifies that principle---unless you really want others to treat you like that? Do you really want to live in the Hobbsean State of Nature? Read Golding's Lor of the Flies or Conrad's Heart of Darkness to see what happens to us when we strip away the veneer of civilization.
    Lighten up Francis It's a still from a movie in a bicycle film festival.
    Nice reading list, you also might want to look up slippery slope.
    I especially love that you brought up Zoroastrianism, you also might want to look up sense of humor or check with any of your friends to see if you actually have one.
    Non semper erit aestas.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    you should spend a bit of time looking up and understanding the true definition of anarchy
    Anarchy, from the Greek, "an-" not + "arche", rule or authority. An absence of rule, law, or authority. Chaos, lawlessness, disorder; lack of law, lack of restraint.

    We saw anarchy in New Orleans after Katrina. We saw and still see it in Iraq and Afghanistan after our illegal invasions. We see it in Somalia. As the Book of Judges puts it, "In those days there was no King in Israel and each man did what was right in his own eyes."

    Oh, yes, there are pseudopholosophies that try to dress it up, but that is what anarchy is--each individual for him-/herself and Devil take the hindmost.

  19. #44
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Moulton View Post
    There was a time when I used to come on this forum and contribute on a regular basis, but it was exactly this type of comment that stopped me doing that.

    The POB article is not about elitism, it is about safety. It is also about obeying the rules of the road. The biggest complaint that drivers of automobiles levy against us is that we run red lights and stop signs, ride the wrong way one-way streets, etc. etc.

    We all know that motorists break the law too, but pointing the finger at them does little good as there is more of them than us. When you are a minority, you tend to be labeled by the worst in a group.

    Here is some more silly BSing:

    Watchdogging Blogging.

    Watchdogging Follow-up.

    Dave Moulton, Ex-framebuilder and arrogant SOB.
    Dave, there are idiots operating all types of vehicles. We don't make the distinction between "Drivers" and "Persons in Cars" or "Pedestrians" and "People on Foot" do we? Categorizing cyclists serves no good purpose other than to make self-described "Serious Cyclists" feel superior to grandma toodling down the sidewalk. How bout we just call idiots, idiots?
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  20. #45
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Putting the admin hat on here...

    Now that we know the author of this blog post is a member of Bike Forums, it's time to drop the personal insults. Chip demonstrates that it's entirely possible to disagree with the article without descending into name-calling. I'm impressed.
    "Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."

  21. #46
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treespeed View Post
    Real cyclist.
    <humor>

    No helmet!
    No brakes!
    Only one hand on the bars!
    Unsuitable cycling attire!
    Riding too far right!
    Gaps between foam bar grips!
    Stem too tall in steerer tube!
    Unsafe cruiser bars!
    Non-regulation hand gestures!

    This said, we conclude that this is imitation of a genuine Real Cyclist™. A genuine Real Cyclist™ will show evidence of the aforementioned Real Cyclist Gear™ hallmarks described above. Real Cyclists™ will also have their center finger painted in Real Reflective™ paint, and have read Real Effective Cycling™ by John Forester™ (really!).

    Additionally, this cyclist is in copyright infringement of our Real Fred™ line, by virtue of holding a Real Straight Line™ and setting their saddle at Real Height™.

    However, we would like to add this individual to our new Real Poseur™ lineup, for having the Real Nerve™ to express Real Dislike™ towards another Real Road User™, thereby making them a Real Jerk™©®

    </humor>

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 12-25-08 at 11:20 PM.

  22. #47
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
    Anarchy, from the Greek, "an-" not + "arche", rule or authority. An absence of rule, law, or authority. Chaos, lawlessness, disorder; lack of law, lack of restraint.

    We saw anarchy in New Orleans after Katrina. We saw and still see it in Iraq and Afghanistan after our illegal invasions. We see it in Somalia. As the Book of Judges puts it, "In those days there was no King in Israel and each man did what was right in his own eyes."

    Oh, yes, there are pseudopholosophies that try to dress it up, but that is what anarchy is--each individual for him-/herself and Devil take the hindmost.
    Fail

  23. #48
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    No helmet!
    ...
    And worst of all; an XMart bicycle!!

    No RealSeriousCyclist™ would ever display such incompetence!!!

    She needs to get herself quickly to an LBS and buy a RealBike with a RealSerious HeadTube Badge and RealSeriousBrandName Components and Labels.

  24. #49
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    And worst of all; an XMart bicycle!!
    Not exactly - it is a Real Fred™ Columbia middleweight from the mid '60s. Columbia is a well-known name amongst Real Freds™ and Real Commuters™ , as their 3-speeds make good Real Grocery Bikes™ . Of course, they are probably one of the most susceptible American bikes to Real Frame Whippiness™ , and therefore, are not really suited for Real Commuters™ . However, Columbias are ideal for Real C&V'ers™ .

    -Kurt

  25. #50
    Warning:Mild Peril Treespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    And worst of all; an XMart bicycle!!

    No RealSeriousCyclist™ would ever display such incompetence!!!

    She needs to get herself quickly to an LBS and buy a RealBike with a RealSerious HeadTube Badge and RealSeriousBrandName Components and Labels.
    Actually I just thought she looked kind of cute in a Kick @ss, smart college girl, cyclist kind of way.
    Non semper erit aestas.

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