cop asks for CM response
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
cop asks for CM response
I sent my email. Does this warrent a CM response?
It'd be interesting how he would handle it.
https://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...7-12f3db41e065
Celebrate Critical Mass or crack down?
Some participants mean well, but many want to wage war with drivers
The Province
Published: Sunday, July 27, 2008
By the time you read this, Vancouver will have experienced another Critical Mass bicycle rally.
How many of you will have been in dustups with these characters is hard to say. Most of the cyclists showing up for Critical Mass rides are legitimate enthusiasts -- two-wheeled, earth-loving anti-carbonaros.
They hit the streets on the last Friday of each month, ostensibly to promote biking as a realistic form of transport. Cycling crowds as large as 3,000 gather at the downtown art gallery, then roll through downtown traffic en masse.
Intersections are blocked illegally, as a mile-long pack traverses city centre at peak inopportune moments. Typically, their leaders stop to ponder the meaning of it all atop the Lions Gate Bridge, holding riders still all the way back to the Park Drive overpass, while cars are made to idle in place behind.
That said, the group has no formal leadership, or none they'll admit to. No one to hold accountable for lack of permits or willful obstruction of traffic. No one to discuss the bizarre and confrontational behaviour seen on Critical Mass fringes.
Any number of these people drink or smoke dope as they roll along. Some ride naked. Others taunt frustrated motorists, swarming drivers stuck at crossings.
There are fistfights. Cars are damaged as bicycles scrape by on purpose, teaching "lessons" to those who dare voice an opinion about being forced to a stop.
Police ******* for such a debacle are seen by some as a bad idea. Lending legitimacy to confrontational groups is inadvisable, and assisting people in blocking bridge traffic is difficult to justify these days.
Think back to the recent freezing of the Ironworkers Memorial bridge, and how poorly that was received. How calmly would commuters accept another shut-down bridge, with no lives in danger -- just a crowd of cyclists with strong feelings?
Other options are just as vexing. Moving in for enforcement could cause a major stir. Some readers would applaud police action; others would curse us for failure to support the greening of the West Coast.
A general summer bicycle campaign is being considered, to deal with an epidemic reluctance to wear helmets. Bicyclists almost never stop for stop signs, and they blow downtown traffic lights as often as not.
I'll assume they know they're accountable to traffic law. Many don't have driver's licences, and perceive themselves to be immune to traffic fines, though the feeling is false. Unpaid fines are kept on record, to be discussed whenever a DL is applied for.
I don't want to be preachy. Even if I did, I'd admit to a certain flexibility when it comes to bicycles on the road. Nevertheless, having two wheelers turn on motorists sweeps notions of leniency off the table.
I'm in search of readership thought. Should these people be subjected to an intense enforcement campaign, with special attention to the violent fringe? Should they be pampered with a full motorcade escort?
It's not my decision to make, which may be a blessing. Drop me a line at the address below.
Sgt. Mark Tonner is a Vancouver police officer, whose column appears biweekly in Unwind. His opinions aren't necessarily those of the city's police department or board.
Mark may be contacted at marcuspt@shaw.ca.
It'd be interesting how he would handle it.
https://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...7-12f3db41e065
Celebrate Critical Mass or crack down?
Some participants mean well, but many want to wage war with drivers
The Province
Published: Sunday, July 27, 2008
By the time you read this, Vancouver will have experienced another Critical Mass bicycle rally.
How many of you will have been in dustups with these characters is hard to say. Most of the cyclists showing up for Critical Mass rides are legitimate enthusiasts -- two-wheeled, earth-loving anti-carbonaros.
They hit the streets on the last Friday of each month, ostensibly to promote biking as a realistic form of transport. Cycling crowds as large as 3,000 gather at the downtown art gallery, then roll through downtown traffic en masse.
Intersections are blocked illegally, as a mile-long pack traverses city centre at peak inopportune moments. Typically, their leaders stop to ponder the meaning of it all atop the Lions Gate Bridge, holding riders still all the way back to the Park Drive overpass, while cars are made to idle in place behind.
That said, the group has no formal leadership, or none they'll admit to. No one to hold accountable for lack of permits or willful obstruction of traffic. No one to discuss the bizarre and confrontational behaviour seen on Critical Mass fringes.
Any number of these people drink or smoke dope as they roll along. Some ride naked. Others taunt frustrated motorists, swarming drivers stuck at crossings.
There are fistfights. Cars are damaged as bicycles scrape by on purpose, teaching "lessons" to those who dare voice an opinion about being forced to a stop.
Police ******* for such a debacle are seen by some as a bad idea. Lending legitimacy to confrontational groups is inadvisable, and assisting people in blocking bridge traffic is difficult to justify these days.
Think back to the recent freezing of the Ironworkers Memorial bridge, and how poorly that was received. How calmly would commuters accept another shut-down bridge, with no lives in danger -- just a crowd of cyclists with strong feelings?
Other options are just as vexing. Moving in for enforcement could cause a major stir. Some readers would applaud police action; others would curse us for failure to support the greening of the West Coast.
A general summer bicycle campaign is being considered, to deal with an epidemic reluctance to wear helmets. Bicyclists almost never stop for stop signs, and they blow downtown traffic lights as often as not.
I'll assume they know they're accountable to traffic law. Many don't have driver's licences, and perceive themselves to be immune to traffic fines, though the feeling is false. Unpaid fines are kept on record, to be discussed whenever a DL is applied for.
I don't want to be preachy. Even if I did, I'd admit to a certain flexibility when it comes to bicycles on the road. Nevertheless, having two wheelers turn on motorists sweeps notions of leniency off the table.
I'm in search of readership thought. Should these people be subjected to an intense enforcement campaign, with special attention to the violent fringe? Should they be pampered with a full motorcade escort?
It's not my decision to make, which may be a blessing. Drop me a line at the address below.
Sgt. Mark Tonner is a Vancouver police officer, whose column appears biweekly in Unwind. His opinions aren't necessarily those of the city's police department or board.
Mark may be contacted at marcuspt@shaw.ca.
Last edited by closetbiker; 07-27-08 at 10:00 PM.
#2
Non-Custom Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,613
Bikes: 1975-1980 SR road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think he sensationalizes and validates fears instead of trying to find solutions.
Here would be an obvious solution, if you had repeated violent CM incidents in your town:
Organize a second monthly bike ride. Make it more fun than CM, with the same kind of freak-flag feel, but with a more controlled environment (planned route with better corking). Keep the police presence low, with organizers/volunteers recruited to keep the peace. Free donuts.
Here would be an obvious solution, if you had repeated violent CM incidents in your town:
Organize a second monthly bike ride. Make it more fun than CM, with the same kind of freak-flag feel, but with a more controlled environment (planned route with better corking). Keep the police presence low, with organizers/volunteers recruited to keep the peace. Free donuts.
#4
Non-Custom Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,613
Bikes: 1975-1980 SR road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
When I first read your post, I thought that the article was your response. I though, "Well, I can understand Closetbiker's point of view, but this does seem a little less of a rational/dispassionate argument than I usually expect from his posts" haha
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ky. and FL.
Posts: 3,944
Bikes: KHS steel SS
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
"I'll assume they know they're accountable to traffic law. Many don't have driver's licences, and perceive themselves to be immune to traffic fines, though the feeling is false. Unpaid fines are kept on record, to be discussed whenever a DL is applied for."
That's it? Traffic fines up there mean nothing unless you apply for a license?
At least this guy is looking for input, instead of just cracking down.
That's it? Traffic fines up there mean nothing unless you apply for a license?
At least this guy is looking for input, instead of just cracking down.
#8
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
I say crack down on the CM riders... hold them to the law. Then do exactly the same thing to motorists in the area. And make sure there is a crack down on all motorists violating laws... no excuses or margins...
I also think that if CM really wants to make an impact, they SHOULD ride in a fully legal manner... The only point CM riders make as scofflaws is that cyclists are scofflaws. SIGH.
I also think that if CM really wants to make an impact, they SHOULD ride in a fully legal manner... The only point CM riders make as scofflaws is that cyclists are scofflaws. SIGH.
#9
There's time now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On a stack of books, PA
Posts: 768
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4096 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times
in
113 Posts
IMO a law should be enacted that if you participate in a violent ride, your bike may be confiscated at police discretion. The bikes can then be auctioned off to fund pro-cycling solutions.
#10
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
OK, then the same should be true for motorists.... if a motorist does a close pass or rude honk or yells something from their car, rather then driving in a safe and responsible manner... he should lose his car. Fair enough.
#11
There's time now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On a stack of books, PA
Posts: 768
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4096 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times
in
113 Posts
Motorists can and do loose there cars for a variety of things. Vancouver just passed stricter laws for this iirc. Please note that I did not say "for passing too close or honking". Do not create a strawman. I clearly stated for violence etc. If a car assaults a cyclist with there vehicle, do you think that they should lose the auto? Furthermore there is not a loosely organized group of motorists out to get cyclist in the same manner. Do to your reply am I to assume that you support CM-style violence?
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
"I'll assume they know they're accountable to traffic law. Many don't have driver's licences, and perceive themselves to be immune to traffic fines, though the feeling is false. Unpaid fines are kept on record, to be discussed whenever a DL is applied for."
That's it? Traffic fines up there mean nothing unless you apply for a license?
At least this guy is looking for input, instead of just cracking down.
That's it? Traffic fines up there mean nothing unless you apply for a license?
At least this guy is looking for input, instead of just cracking down.
I think he's looking for popular approval to throw anyone in these rides into jail. I think he knows he's likely to get it by puting it in the paper the way he did. As far as I understand, the official police stance on these (rather tame) CM's is to let them be, but it look's like he's trying to stir the pot to enable a crackdown to be ordered from his superiors.
A couple of other things I found odd were, you don't need a driver's licence to receive a ticket and the ticket has nothing to do with receiving one (as far as I understand, I've emailed him to confirm this). A ticket on your bike is not tied into your driving record. It's possible that he's simply linking the licence with a positive ID so if you haven't paid a fine and you show up and identify yourself when applying for a licence, you've IDed yourself and are subject to paying the fine and they may not issue you a licence if you don't pay it (them). At any rate, he makes the issue as clear as mud.
As far as the claim many don't have licences, he has to be talking about a select group of individuals because about 80% of the entire population holds licences here. The only ones are those under the legal age, some of the elderly, a few teens straggeling past their eligible birthday, and the poor and disenfranchised. He's probably referring to the latter.
I also don't like it when he implies that the general cycling population (not the CM crowd - at least that's the way I took it) never stops for red lights and stop signs. It reads like he's just painting anyone on a bike as a law breaker and therefore justify his subliminal wish to throw everyone in jail
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
As far as CM goes, I wrote, I'd never take part in it but I do understand why they do it and unless you ride in city traffic (without a uniform on) every day you'd never understand the laws that are broken by motorists to cyclists that encourage cyclists to take part in CM. I think the police should escort CM to discourage bad behavior both cyclists and motorists could get into. Seems like the air could be ripe for confrontation between the two. The police should act as peace keepers in their role as *******.
I hope he replies, but I doubt he will.
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#16
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,481
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2393 Post(s)
Liked 4,302 Times
in
2,064 Posts
Not a bad suggestion in itself, but the officers assigned to enforce it must have an excellent knowledge of both the state and city bicycle laws, unless one wishes to have a mess such as the New York CM citations mentioned a while back.
-Kurt
#17
There's time now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On a stack of books, PA
Posts: 768
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4096 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times
in
113 Posts
You are correct, I mean fine as well. Perhaps even require offending cyclist to partake in advocacy programs such as cleaning MUP's, trails, helping teach younger generations about bicycles.
#18
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
Motorists can and do loose there cars for a variety of things. Vancouver just passed stricter laws for this iirc. Please note that I did not say "for passing too close or honking". Do not create a strawman. I clearly stated for violence etc. If a car assaults a cyclist with there vehicle, do you think that they should lose the auto? Furthermore there is not a loosely organized group of motorists out to get cyclist in the same manner. Do to your reply am I to assume that you support CM-style violence?
Frankly I think CM IS over the top... and that if a real Critical Mass is to be obtained, riders should ride in the most lawful manner possible. But I also want equality on the road... so for every motorist driving over the speed limit or running a stop, or killing a cyclist, I want equal justice.
#19
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
And of course there is always this sort of CM behavior... SIGH...
https://gothamist.com/2008/07/28/cop_...lting_cycl.php
and on the flip side... this sort of cyclist behavior... https://www.vimeo.com/1409073?pg=embed&sec=1409073
https://gothamist.com/2008/07/28/cop_...lting_cycl.php
and on the flip side... this sort of cyclist behavior... https://www.vimeo.com/1409073?pg=embed&sec=1409073
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ky. and FL.
Posts: 3,944
Bikes: KHS steel SS
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I also don't like it when he implies that the general cycling population (not the CM crowd - at least that's the way I took it) never stops for red lights and stop signs. It reads like he's just painting anyone on a bike as a law breaker and therefore justify his subliminal wish to throw everyone in jail
#21
Senior Member
Thread Starter
It reminds me of a motorist complaining to me one day about all the cyclists who pass on the right and I had to remind him that motorists do it too, just as they speed, tailgate, pass unsafely etc., etc.
I'm all for strict traffic enforcement. Pull over every bozo when they're wrong. I'd love it. We'd get rid of 75% of the cars on the road.
#22
Non-Custom Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,613
Bikes: 1975-1980 SR road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In general, I see most cyclists stop for red lights, and treat stop signs as yield signs. I probably see between 20 and a hundred cyclists a day.
In San Diego, most of the cyclists I saw behaved the same way, although I saw fewer cyclists in a day.
In a rural area with minimal, I would expect most cyclists to treat stop lights and stop signs as yield signs. I probably would.
#23
Ridin' Free!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Fairborn, Ohio USA
Posts: 45
Bikes: Giant Revive 2007 8 speed, beater beach cruiser
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I obey all of the road laws when cycling and at least where I live other cyclists generally obey and stop at lights/signs as well. The only major problems here are morons riding on the wrong side of the road, kids riding nilly willy like dimwits, no helmets, and quite a lot of sidewalk riding rather than getting on the road.
#24
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
I've seen hundreds and hundreds stop. Our data is purely anecdotal.
In general, I see most cyclists stop for red lights, and treat stop signs as yield signs. I probably see between 20 and a hundred cyclists a day.
In San Diego, most of the cyclists I saw behaved the same way, although I saw fewer cyclists in a day.
In a rural area with minimal, I would expect most cyclists to treat stop lights and stop signs as yield signs. I probably would.
In general, I see most cyclists stop for red lights, and treat stop signs as yield signs. I probably see between 20 and a hundred cyclists a day.
In San Diego, most of the cyclists I saw behaved the same way, although I saw fewer cyclists in a day.
In a rural area with minimal, I would expect most cyclists to treat stop lights and stop signs as yield signs. I probably would.
#25
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Al