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Old 10-23-08, 06:13 PM   #1
djnzlab1
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From Bicycle Magazine who's at fault

HI,,
reviewed this on bike magazine it give a bike riders view as a car driver and some negative run in with bike riders while driving.
Doug

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Old 10-24-08, 07:50 AM   #2
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Good article. If a cyclist wants to blow a red light I have no problem with it. If I'm in my car and hit said cyclist....well he shouldn't have been there. My opinion is " if you want respect, you have to give some".

I'm so glad I don't have to ride in a city. I'll take these narrow back country roads and dodge squirrels and turkeys anytime.
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Old 10-24-08, 08:00 AM   #3
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I'll run a red light when I know for sure that I'm not getting in anyone's way (otherwise, I'll stop, even if I feel I can safely get through the light without getting hit). However, I think it is never wrong to stop at a red light. I've had the same sort of thing happen to me where I've stopped at a light only to have a cyclist behind me nearly hit me thinking that I was going to run it. And even if there was absolutely no cross traffic at all, I would never begrudge a cyclist in front of me for stopping and blocking my way.
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Old 10-24-08, 08:31 AM   #4
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From the article: "One had just nearly been hit, although he openly admitted to blowing through a red light and was upset about having to stop and lose momentum."

The real reason some cyclists don't stop at red lights has nothing to do about courtesy, safety, or any of a dozen other reasons you can list. It's because they're seriously weak-sauce sprinters. HTFU, stop at the red lights, and work on your sprints!
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Old 10-24-08, 08:51 AM   #5
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I will stop at all red lights, just like if I was driving a car, or riding a motorcycle, which gives me a short break, and I've yet to find a light sensor in my town that I cannot trip. How other cyclists treat red lights is their business, just as long as they do not hit me from behind when I do stop.
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Old 10-24-08, 10:21 AM   #6
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Around here a cyclist generally can not trigger a light. So I usually treat them as stop signs. I do not blow red lights if a motorist is there to trigger the light. Also I make VERY SURE that I can cross the road with a wide margin of safety.
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Old 10-24-08, 10:56 AM   #7
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Ohmigod! You mean there are some idiot cyclists out there? No, it can't be, only idiot car drivers, right?

So the guy was rude, doesn't mean its a mortal sin to run red lights when you don't interfere with anyone's right of way.
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Old 10-24-08, 01:08 PM   #8
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Around here a cyclist generally can not trigger a light. So I usually treat them as stop signs. I do not blow red lights if a motorist is there to trigger the light. Also I make VERY SURE that I can cross the road with a wide margin of safety.
Insensitivity of loop detectors is a very serious problem in some cities. If you routinely encounter a non-triggerable traffic signal in your town, be sure to report it to your traffic engineering department, and escalate to the city council if you don't get satisfaction. We all need to raise our collective voices.

I can generally trigger an inductive loop detector, provided that I can see the cut in the pavement. My problem is that one of our local major roads was recently repaved, rendering the detector invisible. If I do not put one, preferably both, rims right on top of the detector, I cannot trigger the light -- there is very little room for lateral positioning error.
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Old 10-25-08, 02:03 PM   #9
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Ohmigod! You mean there are some idiot cyclists out there? No, it can't be, only idiot car drivers, right?

So the guy was rude, doesn't mean its a mortal sin to run red lights when you don't interfere with anyone's right of way.
I don't recall anyone saying it was a mortal sin, simply that it is illegal and provides the wider world, esp. drivers, with readymade grounds for criticism of the whole cycling community, however irrational that might be.

As for the guy being rude, he was stupidly rude, being entirely in the wrong - of course, good manners and consideration are not regarded as a civilised requirement vis-a-vis each other. As for not interfering with anyone's right of way, this rude idiot caused two drivers to slam on the brakes in order to avoid hitting him. Apparently Rude Guy expects other people to treat him and his safety with more consideration that he feels required to.

Anyone who's been a campaigner/advocate at public meetings or private ones, with city council officers or elected representatives, knows, they have to spend an inordinate amount of time countering these very criticisms, time which could be better spent on arguing for better facilities/training/law enforcement, etc.

If, by some miraculous change in red light jumping, sidewalk riding, cyclists' mindset and it ceased overnight, there would still be irrational, anti-cycling arguments put forward by the motoring community. However, their arguments would then be seen as irrational and self-serving and campaigning would be made much easier.

I've never knowingly ignored a red light (missed a couple thro' gormlessness) and have not had my life threatened by poor driving as a result of that. I've been left hooked on several occasions, but my care and attention prevented something unpleasant happening. As for arguments that someone's poor little legs would be subject to start/stopping and it's tiring, well, bless, poor lambikins.

RLJers' arguments in favour of their point of view are the mirror image of drivers making similar aruments about ignoring speed limits and just as self-serving.

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Old 10-25-08, 02:18 PM   #10
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Red lights = track stand pactice
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Old 10-25-08, 02:54 PM   #11
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I can respect the suggestion to bring insensitive loop sensors to the attention of traffic engineers, but to actually expect them to do something is another story. In PA they know that they won't do anything about it. That is why PA bike law allows you to ride through a stop light after stopping and realizing it won't change for you. Some of us just realize that quicker than others!
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Old 10-25-08, 03:06 PM   #12
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From the article: "One had just nearly been hit, although he openly admitted to blowing through a red light and was upset about having to stop and lose momentum."

The real reason some cyclists don't stop at red lights has nothing to do about courtesy, safety, or any of a dozen other reasons you can list. It's because they're seriously weak-sauce sprinters. HTFU, stop at the red lights, and work on your sprints!
Yet another reason I'll never switch over to clipless, especially for commuting. It isn't just the loss of momentum for some; it's having to unclip and then reclip when the light turns green. I would posit that the easier it is to get your foot down and then back up when you need to, the more likely you are to actually stop at a red light.
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Old 10-25-08, 03:09 PM   #13
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HI, reviewed this on bike magazine it give a bike riders view as a car driver and some negative run in with bike riders while driving.
Am I the only one that thinks this sentence makes absolutely no sense at all? I had to read it five times to figure out what I "think" you're trying to say.
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Old 10-25-08, 03:29 PM   #14
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Yet another reason I'll never switch over to clipless, especially for commuting. It isn't just the loss of momentum for some; it's having to unclip and then reclip when the light turns green. I would posit that the easier it is to get your foot down and then back up when you need to, the more likely you are to actually stop at a red light.
It's actually very easy with clipless, with just a little practice. Clipping and unclipping is never a factor for me in deciding when to stop, and it doesn't have to be for anyone else either.
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Old 10-25-08, 03:49 PM   #15
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Yet another reason I'll never switch over to clipless, especially for commuting. It isn't just the loss of momentum for some; it's having to unclip and then reclip when the light turns green. I would posit that the easier it is to get your foot down and then back up when you need to, the more likely you are to actually stop at a red light.
+1. Much nicer to just put the foot down or get off the bike entirely.
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Old 10-25-08, 06:52 PM   #16
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The real reason some cyclists don't stop at red lights has nothing to do about courtesy, safety, or any of a dozen other reasons you can list. It's because they're seriously weak-sauce sprinters. HTFU, stop at the red lights, and work on your sprints!
Well said.

I pretty much always catch up with cyclists that blow through the red light that I'm stopped at. The ones I mainly see hop off the footpath, run the light, and then hop back on the footpath. It always seems like an arse-about assesment of risk to me.
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Old 10-25-08, 06:54 PM   #17
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+1. Much nicer to just put the foot down or get off the bike entirely.
Getting in and out of clipless pedals easily takes about 5 minutes to learn, if you're a slow learner. I realise that's more commitment than some people want to give it, though.
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Old 10-25-08, 07:25 PM   #18
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Getting in and out of clipless pedals easily takes about 5 minutes to learn, if you're a slow learner. I realise that's more commitment than some people want to give it, though.
And it takes 2 to 3 seconds longer to clip in then with steel toe-clip pedals, not to mention that the plastic bottom of clipless shoes slide off the reverse of the pedal, requiring that you clip in before you begin pedaling with your un-clipped foot.

With toe-clips, I can pedal un-clipped until I find it safe to slide back into them again. For that matter, you can't accidentally clip out if you have a bad ankling problem.

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Old 10-25-08, 07:36 PM   #19
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Getting in and out of clipless pedals easily takes about 5 minutes to learn, if you're a slow learner. I realise that's more commitment than some people want to give it, though.
The day clipless pedals don't require new shoes to comfortably ride, I'll give them a try. Until then, I'd much rather be able to wear whatever shoes, boots, or sandals I choose, which means platforms are the way to go.
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Old 10-25-08, 09:02 PM   #20
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^ Why not clips and straps?
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Old 10-25-08, 09:52 PM   #21
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There's been a few times during my commutes that if I'd been clipped in, they would have ended with some very bad results. I've yet to make the jump to clip/clipless, especially since the majority of my travels are in an urban environment with a lot of stops and starts.
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Old 10-26-08, 08:58 AM   #22
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And it takes 2 to 3 seconds longer to clip in then with steel toe-clip pedals, not to mention that the plastic bottom of clipless shoes slide off the reverse of the pedal, requiring that you clip in before you begin pedaling with your un-clipped foot.

With toe-clips, I can pedal un-clipped until I find it safe to slide back into them again. For that matter, you can't accidentally clip out if you have a bad ankling problem.

-Kurt
It takes me longer to flip my toeclips and wedge my shoe in them than it does to mash on my Mallets and clip in my rubber-soled MTB shoes.

There is such a huge range of clipless options now, I don't understand why anyone thinks that you'd have to wear plastic-soled shoes with cleats that make you walk like an ice skater.

But anyway, back to the OP --

Yup, riding through a red light into traffic is just plain stupid and rude. I stop at red lights because the street I'm about to cross is probably busy enough to warrant a light instead of just a stop sign. But, I don't necessarily stay stopped; I'll go if it's nice and clear (and, often, pedestrians will already be stepping across in the same direction before I start pedaling). I try to make it plainly evident that I'm looking both ways, too.
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Old 10-26-08, 09:15 AM   #23
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^ Why not clips and straps?
I tried them once. Didn't like having to flip them over to put my sandal in, didn't like the feeling of my sandal being trapped inside. Went back to platforms...
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Old 10-26-08, 02:47 PM   #24
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It takes me longer to flip my toeclips and wedge my shoe in them than it does to mash on my Mallets and clip in my rubber-soled MTB shoes.

There is such a huge range of clipless options now, I don't understand why anyone thinks that you'd have to wear plastic-soled shoes with cleats that make you walk like an ice skater.
Definitely, to each their own. My description is primarily relegated to older LOOKs w/Duegi shoes.

All boils down to what the individual finds the most comfortable, really.

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I tried them once. Didn't like having to flip them over to put my sandal in, didn't like the feeling of my sandal being trapped inside. Went back to platforms...
I'd never ride clips and straps with open shoes. Sandal-riding pretty much is restricted to platforms.

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Old 10-26-08, 03:14 PM   #25
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I'll run a red light when I know for sure that I'm not getting in anyone's way (otherwise, I'll stop, even if I feel I can safely get through the light without getting hit). However, I think it is never wrong to stop at a red light. I've had the same sort of thing happen to me where I've stopped at a light only to have a cyclist behind me nearly hit me thinking that I was going to run it. And even if there was absolutely no cross traffic at all, I would never begrudge a cyclist in front of me for stopping and blocking my way.
that's his fault for following too close.
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