Why are bike lanes often put right next to parked cars?
06-05-09, 03:29 PM
#51
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Granted bike lanes next to parking lanes/door zones are dangerous, but what is more dangerous is a bike lane right next to a row of angled parking spaces, just off of the rear corners of the bumpers of cars and trucks. There is a park in Honolulu, Hawaii, named after a former famous Queen, where this is the case if I am not mistaken. The drivers can not see bicycle traffic very well if at all when they are backing out. I think CBHI can help explain this better then I can as I have only ridden through the particular park a few times when I was there in 2006.
06-06-09, 10:02 AM
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Granted bike lanes next to parking lanes/door zones are dangerous, but what is more dangerous is a bike lane right next to a row of angled parking spaces, just off of the rear corners of the bumpers of cars and trucks. There is a park in Honolulu, Hawaii, named after a former famous Queen, where this is the case if I am not mistaken. The drivers can not see bicycle traffic very well if at all when they are backing out. I think CBHI can help explain this better then I can as I have only ridden through the particular park a few times when I was there in 2006.
Am I missing something big in this analysis?
06-06-09, 10:20 AM
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If you are parallel parked, you can see anything you need to see in your side mirror. Leaving angled parking in most cases is a leap of faith beyond a few feet. It probably shouldn't be allowed on the street. Bad enough in a parking lot with the speed many people drive there.
06-06-09, 11:15 AM
#54
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I agree with that nose in diagonal parking can be dangerous especialy if you tend to ride are far right as practicable. The blind spot caused by roof pillars and large vehicles can obscure even cars. Add that to the awful driving abilities of many cagers.
06-06-09, 12:02 PM
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But FWIW, the basic rule for dealing with blind spots for a guy backing out is to do so VERY SLOWLY. If that's followed, then there should be plenty of time for the cyclist to see the back-up lights and to slow or stop, right?
Of course, my earlier point remains. Parallel parking and high speed traffic don't mix well. BLs are superfluorous in low speed traffic. So I don't see a case where both would be desired.
Of course, my earlier point remains. Parallel parking and high speed traffic don't mix well. BLs are superfluorous in low speed traffic. So I don't see a case where both would be desired.
06-06-09, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ngchen
I don't see a case where both would be desired.
I agree, bike lanes are more appropriate on higher speed roadways, but communities should have viable bike routes that may include bike boulevards, unmodified streets, MUPs, bike laned connector streets, sharrowed streets, hybrid sharrow/bike lane cooridors and bike routes.
definetely a goal is a quality bikelane that keep riders out of the door zone but the "door zone" remains present if a street remains unstriped.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-06-09 at 01:12 PM.
06-06-09, 05:37 PM
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It's unfortunate, especially for us, but it's pretty much the only option.
The bike lane has to go either on the far right or the far left of the flow of traffic. I don't think anyone would want it to be in between lanes. On the far left would actually be great in some ways, e.g. greater separation between cars moving opposite directions, theoretically less traffic next to you (assuming drivers follow the "stay to the right unless passing" rule), but would require repainting everything and would make it so that the faster traffic is right beside the cyclist. Also, oncoming cyclists would pass right beside you, and we all know that there are a lot of wobbly riders out there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like them being in the door zone, but it's probably the best place. Personally, I think that they should do away with parallel-style on-street parking in areas with a lot of bikes because of this problem. Slanted parking would work much better in terms of safety (though not in terms of efficient usage of space), with no door zone and a good indication of danger: reverse lights. As a bonus, the little triangles at the ends of slanted-parking zones are a good place for motorcycle and/or bicycle parking. This, of course, assumes that the roadway is wide enough to begin with.
I just whiteline it or take the lane.
The bike lane has to go either on the far right or the far left of the flow of traffic. I don't think anyone would want it to be in between lanes. On the far left would actually be great in some ways, e.g. greater separation between cars moving opposite directions, theoretically less traffic next to you (assuming drivers follow the "stay to the right unless passing" rule), but would require repainting everything and would make it so that the faster traffic is right beside the cyclist. Also, oncoming cyclists would pass right beside you, and we all know that there are a lot of wobbly riders out there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like them being in the door zone, but it's probably the best place. Personally, I think that they should do away with parallel-style on-street parking in areas with a lot of bikes because of this problem. Slanted parking would work much better in terms of safety (though not in terms of efficient usage of space), with no door zone and a good indication of danger: reverse lights. As a bonus, the little triangles at the ends of slanted-parking zones are a good place for motorcycle and/or bicycle parking. This, of course, assumes that the roadway is wide enough to begin with.
I just whiteline it or take the lane.
06-06-09, 10:34 PM
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Look up "ironic" in the dictionary, and you'll see a DZBL [Door Zone Bike Lane] beside a BFC [Bicycle Friendly Community] sign.
06-06-09, 11:50 PM
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Even here you still have to be careful, but at least you've got room to maneuver.
06-07-09, 06:29 AM
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Why? If you can't stripe a safe bike lane, you don't have to stripe one. In Columbus, we will soon have sharrows on High Street (the central North-South street). The City couldn't stripe a safe lane, so in a brief moment of sanity, they decided on sharrows.
06-07-09, 07:40 AM
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some streets don't call for bikelanes- narrow, slow speed streets with controlled intersections every block, etc.
Columbus will also soon have 58 miles of bikelane on arterial and connector streets.
In a not-so brief moment of sanity, Columbus came up with a bike master plan that includes bike lanes, sharrowed streets as well as hybrid bikelane/sharrow streetscapes that combine both depending on width of road and dynamics.
https://www.altaprojects.net/columbus...sedNetwork.pdf
Columbus will also soon have 58 miles of bikelane on arterial and connector streets.
In a not-so brief moment of sanity, Columbus came up with a bike master plan that includes bike lanes, sharrowed streets as well as hybrid bikelane/sharrow streetscapes that combine both depending on width of road and dynamics.
https://www.altaprojects.net/columbus...sedNetwork.pdf
06-07-09, 08:45 AM
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Another possible alternative to parallel parking on both sides of the street would be to have parallel parking on just one side, and BLs on both. The extra 7 ft or so of width can then be used to clearly separate the BL from the parallel parking space. But sure, parking on only one side of the street reduces available parking and may also draw charges of favoritism of one side of the street vs the other.
Speaking of angled parking, does anyone know what a typical angle that is used is?
Speaking of angled parking, does anyone know what a typical angle that is used is?
06-07-09, 10:42 AM
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some streets don't call for bikelanes- narrow, slow speed streets with controlled intersections every block, etc.
Columbus will also soon have 58 miles of bikelane on arterial and connector streets.
In a not-so brief moment of sanity, Columbus came up with a bike master plan that includes bike lanes, sharrowed streets as well as hybrid bikelane/sharrow streetscapes that combine both depending on width of road and dynamics.
https://www.altaprojects.net/columbus...sedNetwork.pdf
Columbus will also soon have 58 miles of bikelane on arterial and connector streets.
In a not-so brief moment of sanity, Columbus came up with a bike master plan that includes bike lanes, sharrowed streets as well as hybrid bikelane/sharrow streetscapes that combine both depending on width of road and dynamics.
https://www.altaprojects.net/columbus...sedNetwork.pdf
Columbus has built only gutter bike lanes or lanes that stop with signs saying "walk bike on sidewalk." Gee, thanks. We built bike boxes on a side street that needed only more sensitive light sensors. And they still haven't been painted in because they started the project before getting federal approval for the experimental set up. Without that approval, the city is liable for any injuries caused.
06-07-09, 11:15 AM
#64
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exactly. A cyclist would never design the paths we have around here, they have a stop sign every 100 feet. Some of the newer ones seem to have some cyclist input.
Although the situation the op describes has never been done here. As a matter of fact, they have wiped out hundreds of parking spaces in the last year.
Putting a bike path in the door zone is way too common, and any idiot should be able to tell it's not going to work.
Although the situation the op describes has never been done here. As a matter of fact, they have wiped out hundreds of parking spaces in the last year.
Putting a bike path in the door zone is way too common, and any idiot should be able to tell it's not going to work.
06-07-09, 03:52 PM
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Hmmm, something rots in a Non-Prof
I think this may be the same company that is promoting 'bike lanes' and 'separate but equal' lanes to city council-folk in Dallas. A quarter mil to get to the top of the 'Bike Friendly' standings.
You know, why isn't "Bicycling" or some other rag investigating this? Has the LAB lost its' mission? Do we really want or need more bike lanes, or do we really need to work on educating cyclists? We want the "same roads, same rules, same rights", but what happens when we are the ones blowing stop signs and lights and weaving in and out of traffic? Will bike lanes really help offset that behavior?
Here's another question... Do bike shop owners care more about promoting the lifestyle of cycling, including urban cycling education, or do they simply want to push more carbon/aluminum/steel out the door, and leave it to others to focus on education?
Bike lanes have their place. Sharrows have their place. But sensible cycling on the roads is effective, cheap, and presents a lower risk than is perceived. Educating the cycling population will go a long way towards increasing bike trips for utility as well as recreation purposes. Somebody check the ratio of bike sales to car sales in the US. I think it's over 10:1, so we have momentum on our side...
You know, why isn't "Bicycling" or some other rag investigating this? Has the LAB lost its' mission? Do we really want or need more bike lanes, or do we really need to work on educating cyclists? We want the "same roads, same rules, same rights", but what happens when we are the ones blowing stop signs and lights and weaving in and out of traffic? Will bike lanes really help offset that behavior?
Here's another question... Do bike shop owners care more about promoting the lifestyle of cycling, including urban cycling education, or do they simply want to push more carbon/aluminum/steel out the door, and leave it to others to focus on education?
Bike lanes have their place. Sharrows have their place. But sensible cycling on the roads is effective, cheap, and presents a lower risk than is perceived. Educating the cycling population will go a long way towards increasing bike trips for utility as well as recreation purposes. Somebody check the ratio of bike sales to car sales in the US. I think it's over 10:1, so we have momentum on our side...
06-07-09, 04:10 PM
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Has the LAB lost its' mission?
06-07-09, 04:58 PM
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06-07-09, 08:39 PM
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I think this may be the same company that is promoting 'bike lanes' and 'separate but equal' lanes to city council-folk in Dallas. A quarter mil to get to the top of the 'Bike Friendly' standings.
You know, why isn't "Bicycling" or some other rag investigating this? Has the LAB lost its' mission? Do we really want or need more bike lanes, or do we really need to work on educating cyclists? We want the "same roads, same rules, same rights", but what happens when we are the ones blowing stop signs and lights and weaving in and out of traffic? Will bike lanes really help offset that behavior?
Here's another question... Do bike shop owners care more about promoting the lifestyle of cycling, including urban cycling education, or do they simply want to push more carbon/aluminum/steel out the door, and leave it to others to focus on education?
Bike lanes have their place. Sharrows have their place. But sensible cycling on the roads is effective, cheap, and presents a lower risk than is perceived. Educating the cycling population will go a long way towards increasing bike trips for utility as well as recreation purposes. Somebody check the ratio of bike sales to car sales in the US. I think it's over 10:1, so we have momentum on our side...
You know, why isn't "Bicycling" or some other rag investigating this? Has the LAB lost its' mission? Do we really want or need more bike lanes, or do we really need to work on educating cyclists? We want the "same roads, same rules, same rights", but what happens when we are the ones blowing stop signs and lights and weaving in and out of traffic? Will bike lanes really help offset that behavior?
Here's another question... Do bike shop owners care more about promoting the lifestyle of cycling, including urban cycling education, or do they simply want to push more carbon/aluminum/steel out the door, and leave it to others to focus on education?
Bike lanes have their place. Sharrows have their place. But sensible cycling on the roads is effective, cheap, and presents a lower risk than is perceived. Educating the cycling population will go a long way towards increasing bike trips for utility as well as recreation purposes. Somebody check the ratio of bike sales to car sales in the US. I think it's over 10:1, so we have momentum on our side...
06-07-09, 08:41 PM
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The real trick is to improve the width and buffers of bike lanes a skosh but even as they stand, modern MUTCD double striped bike lanes are quite accommodating.
I'd seriously bet the numbers play out that double striped bikelane streets are safer for bicyclists than unstriped, unmodified streets with parallel parking.
trouble is there IS scarce data on this; I do now that bikelanes reduce both sidewalk cycling AND wrong way cycling so if they do that alone there's worth.
The issue of the 'door zone' is present wether there is a bike lane or not; I postulate a modern double striped street has less doorings per bike travel than unmodified streets. The gloom and doom projections of the obstructionists is fearmongering and artifice in my estimation.
I'd seriously bet the numbers play out that double striped bikelane streets are safer for bicyclists than unstriped, unmodified streets with parallel parking.
trouble is there IS scarce data on this; I do now that bikelanes reduce both sidewalk cycling AND wrong way cycling so if they do that alone there's worth.
The issue of the 'door zone' is present wether there is a bike lane or not; I postulate a modern double striped street has less doorings per bike travel than unmodified streets. The gloom and doom projections of the obstructionists is fearmongering and artifice in my estimation.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-07-09 at 08:44 PM.
06-07-09, 09:23 PM
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What precisely is a double-striped bike lane? Is it one where starting from the right hand side, there is the parked car, then a stripe (or other paint mark delineating the left edge of the car), then another stripe marking the right side of the bike lane, and finally a stripe marking the left?
If we crunch the numbers, AFAIK if 14 rather than 12 feet are reserved for a BL + parallel parking, the BL and parallel parking can safely coexist. Here's how.
7 ft for car
+2 ft for door
+ 1 ft for error
+ 4 ft for a narrow but adequate BL.
Of course, the parking spaces need to be clearly marked so that the cars can clearly be seen to be enclosed totally. The zone between the BL and cars can be hatched or otherwise marked as a "no go" zone.
If we crunch the numbers, AFAIK if 14 rather than 12 feet are reserved for a BL + parallel parking, the BL and parallel parking can safely coexist. Here's how.
7 ft for car
+2 ft for door
+ 1 ft for error
+ 4 ft for a narrow but adequate BL.
Of course, the parking spaces need to be clearly marked so that the cars can clearly be seen to be enclosed totally. The zone between the BL and cars can be hatched or otherwise marked as a "no go" zone.
06-09-09, 03:43 PM
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I don't think this has bee mentioned as yet but you probably all take it for granted.
I would rather see these bike lanes just removed and have a normal traffic lane. Or remove the dividing lines and just put a picture of a bike and a car also if you wish in the middle of the traffic lane.
The majority of deaths from dooring aren't from the dooring itself but from being thrown into faster moving traffic in the adjacent lane. This shares the responsibility between the parked car, AND the motorist traveling behind the cyclist in the traffic lane to maintain appropriate distance so they don't run over them in the case of the cyclist spontaneously or unspontaneously falling over.
But then they don't do it now so why would they do it then.
I would rather see these bike lanes just removed and have a normal traffic lane. Or remove the dividing lines and just put a picture of a bike and a car also if you wish in the middle of the traffic lane.
The majority of deaths from dooring aren't from the dooring itself but from being thrown into faster moving traffic in the adjacent lane. This shares the responsibility between the parked car, AND the motorist traveling behind the cyclist in the traffic lane to maintain appropriate distance so they don't run over them in the case of the cyclist spontaneously or unspontaneously falling over.
But then they don't do it now so why would they do it then.
06-11-09, 09:36 AM
#73
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Current MUTCD standard double striped bikelane as shown in the picture above (post #58).
Despite the fearmongering and the biatchinandmoaning,
The issue of the 'door zone' is present wether there is a bike lane or not; I postulate a modern double striped bike laned street has less doorings per mile of bike travel than unmodified streets. that would make that road a safer facility for bicyclists. I'm not going to waste a lot of time sourcing statistics i've seen again and again but there's basic data from the Federal highway administration that shows bike laned arterial streets have lower bike accident rates than unmodified arterials.
The gloom and doom projections of the obstructionists is fearmongering and artifice in my estimation.
Bikelanes positively reduce sidewalk cycling, bringing bicyclists onto the roads with cars, increasing street ridership and visibility of bikes as road users on all streets in a community. Here in my city theres about 4 percent bike laned streets; bicyclists ride on most of the other 96 percent as well.
Despite the fearmongering and the biatchinandmoaning,
The issue of the 'door zone' is present wether there is a bike lane or not; I postulate a modern double striped bike laned street has less doorings per mile of bike travel than unmodified streets. that would make that road a safer facility for bicyclists. I'm not going to waste a lot of time sourcing statistics i've seen again and again but there's basic data from the Federal highway administration that shows bike laned arterial streets have lower bike accident rates than unmodified arterials.
The gloom and doom projections of the obstructionists is fearmongering and artifice in my estimation.
Bikelanes positively reduce sidewalk cycling, bringing bicyclists onto the roads with cars, increasing street ridership and visibility of bikes as road users on all streets in a community. Here in my city theres about 4 percent bike laned streets; bicyclists ride on most of the other 96 percent as well.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-11-09 at 09:41 AM.
06-11-09, 01:03 PM
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Current MUTCD standard double striped bikelane as shown in the picture above (post #58).
Despite the fearmongering and the biatchinandmoaning,
The issue of the 'door zone' is present wether there is a bike lane or not; I postulate a modern double striped bike laned street has less doorings per mile of bike travel than unmodified streets. that would make that road a safer facility for bicyclists. I'm not going to waste a lot of time sourcing statistics i've seen again and again but there's basic data from the Federal highway administration that shows bike laned arterial streets have lower bike accident rates than unmodified arterials.
The gloom and doom projections of the obstructionists is fearmongering and artifice in my estimation.
Bikelanes positively reduce sidewalk cycling, bringing bicyclists onto the roads with cars, increasing street ridership and visibility of bikes as road users on all streets in a community. Here in my city theres about 4 percent bike laned streets; bicyclists ride on most of the other 96 percent as well.
Despite the fearmongering and the biatchinandmoaning,
The issue of the 'door zone' is present wether there is a bike lane or not; I postulate a modern double striped bike laned street has less doorings per mile of bike travel than unmodified streets. that would make that road a safer facility for bicyclists. I'm not going to waste a lot of time sourcing statistics i've seen again and again but there's basic data from the Federal highway administration that shows bike laned arterial streets have lower bike accident rates than unmodified arterials.
The gloom and doom projections of the obstructionists is fearmongering and artifice in my estimation.
Bikelanes positively reduce sidewalk cycling, bringing bicyclists onto the roads with cars, increasing street ridership and visibility of bikes as road users on all streets in a community. Here in my city theres about 4 percent bike laned streets; bicyclists ride on most of the other 96 percent as well.
06-11-09, 01:47 PM
#75
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Look up "ironic" in the dictionary, and you'll see a DZBL [Door Zone Bike Lane] beside a BFC [Bicycle Friendly Community] sign.
The sad thing is if the traffic on that street, at that time, is any indicator, no BL are needed there... and in fact, that BL should be a DMZ... so to speak.
Now that would be a "Bicycle Friendly Community."