US Drivers: No Respect for Speed Limits or Safety
#26
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Do you have an substance based refutation to his comments? If so please share them. Lobbing generalities like you did is not very instructive or otherwise useful.
#27
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We're a republic, not a democracy. Correction for mistaken belief above.
First, the highly varied nature of our roadways in a number of dimensions. Design speed, number of intersecting roads, maintenance, signage, everything. We're highly inconsistent often on the same road. This patchwork leads to folks doing a perfectly reasonable (if not legal) speed have the road change and are then moving an unreasonable speed for that particular road. When I drove a wrecker I'd often visit such transition points. They're excellent drunk traps, but get ordinary people.
As the article quoted by the OP points out, most of the problems deal with the culture of ME. I suspect one aspect is the routine failure to understand or intentional dismissal of the physical limitations of vehicles and eyeballs. Folks overdrive their cars all the time and certainly overdrive their sightlines. Not that folks are driving faster than their vehicles can handle the road, but they're driving at speeds that won't allow the time of emergency handling that might be required given the sightlines. This isn't just the obvious stuff. 65 mph around a nicely engineered bend with a truck entrance around that sweeper presents the opportunity for encountering a 35 mph wall of metal. The particular spot I'm thinking of has the less nimble vehicles right on the edge of control while they change lanes. Very typical.
Maybe this is primarily failure to acknowledge that the sightline required for mere guidance is quite short, but the sightline required for anticipation and control is a good deal longer. As is the attention required. For control, eyeballing the corner and moving through it are pretty easy. Actually stopping at the stop sign and looking to anticipate what's coming is a different matter.
Add distractors on top of that. And a cultural attitude of speed, out of my way, and me me me. And that's what I see on the road.
Out here we've got several classes of drivers, so it's not everyone. We've got the rural dwellers who know that eventually there will be a tractor around the corner, or a fallen tree. The rural teens who speed, but can drive, and don't generally do insane things, just stupid fast things. Mostly this is a reasonable mix without too much speeding and with a good deal of caution for others. Then there are the city people who have moved out. They tend to be more distracted (cell phones), be driving difficult vehicles (low and small sporty or huge SUV) that go pretty fast and are isolating from the environment, and be in a stupid hurry. They're the ones generally over the center line, passing on blind corners, failing to keep much of a lookout, and running stop signs at substantial speed without really looking. They also seem to be the speed limit plus 20 folks. They do die on the roads with some regularity. And finally, the service vehicles the movement of the city people have brought. These are often lost city drivers in larger vehicles who don't seem to have either handling or anticipation skills suitable to their role.
So it's quite a mix.
And there are a few people who can drive. The motorcyclists seem to drive very sensibly. Our shop is on a motorcycle tour route and we see lots. They aren't usually speeding. Lots of side roads and poor sightlines. I also see a certain number of rather nice sporty cars driven exceedingly well. Very safely, perfect lines, crisp shifts, absolute control. Like a very fast drive in slow motion. Hitting the apex etc. This is always a pleasure. I'm one of those and there are several others in my neighborhood. I can tell they've really driven and have tremendous respect for inertia and rate of closure.
Dealing with them is difficult. With the vehicles I can take a hit from, I drive on my side of the road up to having my wheels right on the edge. I don't generally slow down or otherwise do much than our traditional raise a finger greeting. Unskilled cell phone mamas who do not know the corners of their vehicles sometimes end up in the ditch with their big SUVs. They have room, but don't know it, and won't think of slowing down. The folks who rally outweigh my little truck I attempt to encounter where I have a bit of a safety zone on my right. I treat them the same as the SUVs, but if I need to pop away to avoid a collision I can. The tailgaters - I just drive as I usually do. At the speed limit or below depending on sightlines. That and actually stopping and looking at stop signs drives them berserk!
And the nicest people are idiots on the road. I had a lady cus me out for driving the speed limit. Took her a few minutes to realize she'd eaten dinner in my house and worked in my office. Idiot. And a fellow running a stop sign into me on my bicycle is an administrator at the elementary school. I paid him a sweaty visit. He stops and looks now. But a certain number of folks are incredibly obnoxious about their right to be jerks. Can't educate them.
Enough of a rant. I think it's getting worse. I drive defensively as I can, and I used to actually be able to drive at decent speed in a controlled setting in the real fast cars. The ones that you heat the tires up on. Somehow education in general responsibility and all that flows from it is required, but I don't see how to get there. My daughter won't even get a learner's permit!! She wants nothing to do with the whole game.
be well
First, the highly varied nature of our roadways in a number of dimensions. Design speed, number of intersecting roads, maintenance, signage, everything. We're highly inconsistent often on the same road. This patchwork leads to folks doing a perfectly reasonable (if not legal) speed have the road change and are then moving an unreasonable speed for that particular road. When I drove a wrecker I'd often visit such transition points. They're excellent drunk traps, but get ordinary people.
As the article quoted by the OP points out, most of the problems deal with the culture of ME. I suspect one aspect is the routine failure to understand or intentional dismissal of the physical limitations of vehicles and eyeballs. Folks overdrive their cars all the time and certainly overdrive their sightlines. Not that folks are driving faster than their vehicles can handle the road, but they're driving at speeds that won't allow the time of emergency handling that might be required given the sightlines. This isn't just the obvious stuff. 65 mph around a nicely engineered bend with a truck entrance around that sweeper presents the opportunity for encountering a 35 mph wall of metal. The particular spot I'm thinking of has the less nimble vehicles right on the edge of control while they change lanes. Very typical.
Maybe this is primarily failure to acknowledge that the sightline required for mere guidance is quite short, but the sightline required for anticipation and control is a good deal longer. As is the attention required. For control, eyeballing the corner and moving through it are pretty easy. Actually stopping at the stop sign and looking to anticipate what's coming is a different matter.
Add distractors on top of that. And a cultural attitude of speed, out of my way, and me me me. And that's what I see on the road.
Out here we've got several classes of drivers, so it's not everyone. We've got the rural dwellers who know that eventually there will be a tractor around the corner, or a fallen tree. The rural teens who speed, but can drive, and don't generally do insane things, just stupid fast things. Mostly this is a reasonable mix without too much speeding and with a good deal of caution for others. Then there are the city people who have moved out. They tend to be more distracted (cell phones), be driving difficult vehicles (low and small sporty or huge SUV) that go pretty fast and are isolating from the environment, and be in a stupid hurry. They're the ones generally over the center line, passing on blind corners, failing to keep much of a lookout, and running stop signs at substantial speed without really looking. They also seem to be the speed limit plus 20 folks. They do die on the roads with some regularity. And finally, the service vehicles the movement of the city people have brought. These are often lost city drivers in larger vehicles who don't seem to have either handling or anticipation skills suitable to their role.
So it's quite a mix.
And there are a few people who can drive. The motorcyclists seem to drive very sensibly. Our shop is on a motorcycle tour route and we see lots. They aren't usually speeding. Lots of side roads and poor sightlines. I also see a certain number of rather nice sporty cars driven exceedingly well. Very safely, perfect lines, crisp shifts, absolute control. Like a very fast drive in slow motion. Hitting the apex etc. This is always a pleasure. I'm one of those and there are several others in my neighborhood. I can tell they've really driven and have tremendous respect for inertia and rate of closure.
Dealing with them is difficult. With the vehicles I can take a hit from, I drive on my side of the road up to having my wheels right on the edge. I don't generally slow down or otherwise do much than our traditional raise a finger greeting. Unskilled cell phone mamas who do not know the corners of their vehicles sometimes end up in the ditch with their big SUVs. They have room, but don't know it, and won't think of slowing down. The folks who rally outweigh my little truck I attempt to encounter where I have a bit of a safety zone on my right. I treat them the same as the SUVs, but if I need to pop away to avoid a collision I can. The tailgaters - I just drive as I usually do. At the speed limit or below depending on sightlines. That and actually stopping and looking at stop signs drives them berserk!
And the nicest people are idiots on the road. I had a lady cus me out for driving the speed limit. Took her a few minutes to realize she'd eaten dinner in my house and worked in my office. Idiot. And a fellow running a stop sign into me on my bicycle is an administrator at the elementary school. I paid him a sweaty visit. He stops and looks now. But a certain number of folks are incredibly obnoxious about their right to be jerks. Can't educate them.
Enough of a rant. I think it's getting worse. I drive defensively as I can, and I used to actually be able to drive at decent speed in a controlled setting in the real fast cars. The ones that you heat the tires up on. Somehow education in general responsibility and all that flows from it is required, but I don't see how to get there. My daughter won't even get a learner's permit!! She wants nothing to do with the whole game.
be well
#28
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Virginia now has signs that say something to the effect of "just because your righteous self is going the speed limit doesn't mean you should camp in the left lane." There are many ways to be a road hazard.
#29
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speed isn't as dangerous as poor driving habits are. The autobahn functions quite well because of a hyper organized and obedient system of right lane slow left lane fast.
people here have no idea what that means. We are a nation of left lane campers.
sometimes people may be in a rush/emergency. EVERYONE should be able to move over for an emergency vehicle...however this never happens since people just sit and hang out in the left lane right lane...wherever they please.
people here have no idea what that means. We are a nation of left lane campers.
sometimes people may be in a rush/emergency. EVERYONE should be able to move over for an emergency vehicle...however this never happens since people just sit and hang out in the left lane right lane...wherever they please.
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#31
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In the context of cars and speed, as a professionally trained defensive/escape/evasion driver, safe following distance is the key to being able to react to just about anything on a fast highway. What a driver needs is room to react, 2-4 feet behind the car in front of you at 60+ mph and you're a statistic just waiting to happen. With our increasing density on the highways, this room to move is more and more difficult to come by. That, and move out of the passing lane fer pity's sake.
Just like biking, don't overlap and give yourself enough room to react to changing conditions. Being defensive doesn't mean slow, it means being ready.
Typical formula suggest two seconds of open road between you and the car in front of you... good luck getting that much room on an urban expressway these days.
Just like biking, don't overlap and give yourself enough room to react to changing conditions. Being defensive doesn't mean slow, it means being ready.
Typical formula suggest two seconds of open road between you and the car in front of you... good luck getting that much room on an urban expressway these days.
#33
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We tried speed cams here in Ontario and it was an epic failure. I can't remember why though. Seemed cardboard cutouts of police cars peeking out of access roads and from behind signs worked pretty well too.
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I say we should lower the speed limit on all roadways by 10 mph. Then have more police enforce these laws, and get tickets. And add an extra tax to those tickets to support public transit in said jurisdiction. Then have that money be invested in general infrastructure. Then, as less people drive and take public transit, there will be a need for more people to drive the trains and buses, thus creating more jobs. And THIS is how we can escape this recession!
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speed and stopping distance
you will notice that stopping distance increases geometrically with increasing speed. the faster the driver is going, the less likely they will be to stop in time and the more likely there will be more severe injury to whoever's unlucky enough to be hit by a speeding driver.
you will notice that stopping distance increases geometrically with increasing speed. the faster the driver is going, the less likely they will be to stop in time and the more likely there will be more severe injury to whoever's unlucky enough to be hit by a speeding driver.
#36
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If they put speed cameras, people would instantly revolt and simply require that the speed limit be raised to about 80mph on most highways.
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Ok. So we have two basic arguments.
1) That increased speed = increased stopping distance and less time to react.
2) That one can hypothetically drive above the speed limit, and still be safe.
On their face, those two arguments are not mutually exclusive. I personally would worry less about an attentive, high-skilled speedster, than a distracted driver driving the speed limit.
So, here's what we do: We have monitors in all cars to record their speed. We increase the repercussions for at-fault accidents, and if speed was a factor in an at-fault accident, we punish the driver severely, even if there is only property damage.
The other side, is more stringent skill requirements, ala Germany, where fatalities are a smaller percentage than here.
1) That increased speed = increased stopping distance and less time to react.
2) That one can hypothetically drive above the speed limit, and still be safe.
On their face, those two arguments are not mutually exclusive. I personally would worry less about an attentive, high-skilled speedster, than a distracted driver driving the speed limit.
So, here's what we do: We have monitors in all cars to record their speed. We increase the repercussions for at-fault accidents, and if speed was a factor in an at-fault accident, we punish the driver severely, even if there is only property damage.
The other side, is more stringent skill requirements, ala Germany, where fatalities are a smaller percentage than here.
#38
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Those of you who live in less populated places might have the luxury of spreading yourselves out. But in nice places like California, it is impossible to leave the 'safe distance' between cars that we were all taught about when we learned to drive. So we must adapt the way we drive so that we don't endanger the drivers behind us. Not slowing down a lot in our current lane is one of these things.
Last edited by pacificaslim; 11-11-08 at 12:36 PM.
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apparently pacificaslim supports continuing to speed instead of retraining drivers to behave more safely
#40
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Those of you who live in less populated places might have the luxury of spreading yourselves out. But in nice places like California, it is impossible to leave the 'safe distance' between cars that we were all taught about when we learned to drive. So we must adapt the way we drive so that we don't endanger the drivers behind us. Not slowing down a lot in our current lane is one of these things.
#41
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Why is the assumption always made that speed is the major issue? More important issues are:
1. lack of driver priority putting driving and safety above: cell phones, eating, chatting in car, applying makeup, etc
2. lack of driver skills in vehicle handing. How many drivers could be pop quizzed on their planned escape route for an accordian pileup in the last 3 minutes?
3. lack of driver skill enhancement. Collisions are explained away as accidents and not as driving errors with corrective education needed. Imagine a world where after each collision, each driver had to complete 15 hours of classroom instruction and 10 hours of in-vehicle vehicle handling course work.
Speed limits have no correlation to safety at all. Professional drivers can maintain speed above 200 mph for hours without a problem. On interstates, you can safely drive a range of speeds from 5 to 140 mph, depending on if you're in prime time rush hour or out in Nevada or Montana in the middle of nowhere.
Speed limits should be totally situational. For example, in a subdivision it might be safe to drive at 40mph with wide visible streets and no humans or animals about. And yet in the same subdivision, add a person walking a dog, a couple out for a stroll, a youngster biking. Suddenly 15mph is too fast. In those conditions the "safe legal speed" of 25 is too fast and unsafe.
Currently speed limits are primarily about providing regular governmental income streams and have no known correlation to public safety. The fallacy that speed kills is just as bad as the fallacy that heart attacks are number one killer. Look at the health data, it's number one killer of the retired simply because when someone passes in a nursery home, something has to be entered as the cause of death. Accidents and cancer are the number one in post-retirement ages.
Speed is a factor, but only for one factor. Biggest factor is dumming down of driver education and vehicle handling skills. If we were really concerned about safety, there would be a higher emphasis put on driver training, retraining and reeducation whenever there is a collision event.
1. lack of driver priority putting driving and safety above: cell phones, eating, chatting in car, applying makeup, etc
2. lack of driver skills in vehicle handing. How many drivers could be pop quizzed on their planned escape route for an accordian pileup in the last 3 minutes?
3. lack of driver skill enhancement. Collisions are explained away as accidents and not as driving errors with corrective education needed. Imagine a world where after each collision, each driver had to complete 15 hours of classroom instruction and 10 hours of in-vehicle vehicle handling course work.
Speed limits have no correlation to safety at all. Professional drivers can maintain speed above 200 mph for hours without a problem. On interstates, you can safely drive a range of speeds from 5 to 140 mph, depending on if you're in prime time rush hour or out in Nevada or Montana in the middle of nowhere.
Speed limits should be totally situational. For example, in a subdivision it might be safe to drive at 40mph with wide visible streets and no humans or animals about. And yet in the same subdivision, add a person walking a dog, a couple out for a stroll, a youngster biking. Suddenly 15mph is too fast. In those conditions the "safe legal speed" of 25 is too fast and unsafe.
Currently speed limits are primarily about providing regular governmental income streams and have no known correlation to public safety. The fallacy that speed kills is just as bad as the fallacy that heart attacks are number one killer. Look at the health data, it's number one killer of the retired simply because when someone passes in a nursery home, something has to be entered as the cause of death. Accidents and cancer are the number one in post-retirement ages.
Speed is a factor, but only for one factor. Biggest factor is dumming down of driver education and vehicle handling skills. If we were really concerned about safety, there would be a higher emphasis put on driver training, retraining and reeducation whenever there is a collision event.
#42
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Those of you who live in less populated places might have the luxury of spreading yourselves out. But in nice places like California, it is impossible to leave the 'safe distance' between cars that we were all taught about when we learned to drive. So we must adapt the way we drive so that we don't endanger the drivers behind us. Not slowing down a lot in our current lane is one of these things.
I drive in horribly congested areas on a regular basis. I keep a safe distance behind the car in front of me. I don't make major speed changes, I signal before I change lanes, and I pay attention to what is going on around me. Drivers behind me are certainly not "endangered" in any way.
#43
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Word to HiYoSilver... there are actually very few accidents out there. Failure to drive in accordance to the conditions is a much more common occurrence.
#44
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Why not go 200 mph and take a train? Oh that is right we invested in the slow unsafe motor.
Safe speed is the most asinine thing I ever heard. Safe when your rolling down the freeway. Unsafe when you crash.
I think all the points have been hit.
They don't catch me
Drive really frikin fast
Look at my roll cage and insurance card
Bring Cameras
Protect everyone
drop the numbers of death and injuries.
More cameras
Drivers revolt
Majority rules and screws
Tempe AZ fights back
see you in another 40 years, or next BF speed OP
Safe speed is the most asinine thing I ever heard. Safe when your rolling down the freeway. Unsafe when you crash.
I think all the points have been hit.
They don't catch me
Drive really frikin fast
Look at my roll cage and insurance card
Bring Cameras
Protect everyone
drop the numbers of death and injuries.
More cameras
Drivers revolt
Majority rules and screws
Tempe AZ fights back
see you in another 40 years, or next BF speed OP
#45
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Those of you who live in less populated places might have the luxury of spreading yourselves out. But in nice places like California, it is impossible to leave the 'safe distance' between cars that we were all taught about when we learned to drive. So we must adapt the way we drive so that we don't endanger the drivers behind us. Not slowing down a lot in our current lane is one of these things.
#47
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responsibly? i've never caused an accident (and i'm 40). i pay attention. i don't run people off the road. i use my brakes when idiots require me to. i drive a car that weighs less than 2000 lbs. and has fewer than 100 hp. i'm not a nuisance.
I was merely giving some ideas on how we can all be safer on the roadway. Staying to the right unless passing, matching the speed of the lane you wish to enter, passing in front of cars instead of dropping back and trying to get in behind them, and the like, are all good strategies for keeping us all safe out there.
driving in a slow and overcautious manner would be fine if everyone did it. but they don't. purposefully going slowly because of your own selfishness instead of getting with the flow of traffic or staying out of the way of others is a recipe for disaster.
And for those who've forgotten - i'm speaking of highway driving here. On city streets where bikes and pedestrians are potentially around, totally different approaches to driving should be practiced. Slow down. But on the highway, if everyone played my the rules I mentioned, we'd have very few accidents.
I was merely giving some ideas on how we can all be safer on the roadway. Staying to the right unless passing, matching the speed of the lane you wish to enter, passing in front of cars instead of dropping back and trying to get in behind them, and the like, are all good strategies for keeping us all safe out there.
driving in a slow and overcautious manner would be fine if everyone did it. but they don't. purposefully going slowly because of your own selfishness instead of getting with the flow of traffic or staying out of the way of others is a recipe for disaster.
And for those who've forgotten - i'm speaking of highway driving here. On city streets where bikes and pedestrians are potentially around, totally different approaches to driving should be practiced. Slow down. But on the highway, if everyone played my the rules I mentioned, we'd have very few accidents.
#48
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Pennsylvania has a couple of interstates where the speed limit is 55, seemingly for the same reason. It doesn't keep people from going 80, but it does increase the variability in speeds, which makes things more dangerous. Pennsylvania puts orange diamonds on interstate speed limit signs where they know the limit is too low and is not commonly observed. I have no idea why they don't just increase the limit instead.
#49
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"Overall, the vast majority of respondents said they thought it was safe to speed, with 79 percent saying it was safe to exceed the limit by 10 m.p.h. or more."
Wow. So that means some 79 percent of you BF / motorists who bust my chops about breaking traffic laws when I bike are hypocritical. Awesome. (Like I didn't know that before now)
Wow. So that means some 79 percent of you BF / motorists who bust my chops about breaking traffic laws when I bike are hypocritical. Awesome. (Like I didn't know that before now)
Last edited by JoeyBike; 11-11-08 at 10:27 PM.