Doohickie

When accidents occur involving cyclists and motor vehicles, you can analyze each case and assign blame. Sometimes it's the cyclist's fault, sometimes the driver's.

But after reading threads like these, I've come to the realization that cyclists are the problem. Each of us makes the traffic decisions that seem best to us based upon our past experience, our current situation, the traffic around us, etc. The problem is that each of us has very valid (at least to us) reasons for taking the lane, for staying to the side, for rolling through intersections when doing so in a car would draw a ticket, for going when a driver waves us through a 4-way Stop out of turn, for planting a foot and waiting. Each situation is different. But more signficantly, each cyclist's reaction is different. In each of our minds, we are doing the safest, most logical things. To drivers, though, we look like an example of random motion. They don't know what to expect, because we don't all follow the same rules.

One of the rules of safe cycling is to ride consistently. But consistent with what? I ride pretty consistently from one day to the next, but if the next cyclist (who may also ride consistently from one day to the next), rides different from me, how does my consistent riding help anyone? A driver still has no idea what to expect.

JoeyBike feels that his non-stop riding style is least disruptive to both himself and to traffic- finding unoccupied nooks and crannies in traffic, taking the little pieces of space the cars leave over. It's a very noble, romantic justifcation, and for him it works. I would never do that. First of all, to my eyes it goes beyond merely bending traffic laws; secondly, and I think this is why he posts his videos, it just looks crazy. He's developed a skill and exploits it to the fullest.

But even fairly like-minded individuals can differ on a straightforward, common situations, like what to do at 4-way Stops, what's the best way to make a left-hand turn, really basic stuff.

Drivers have much clearer definition of how to drive. Bikes.... not so much.

I think it starts when kids are just starting to ride. As long as they are out of the street, we don't really worry so much about how they are navigating, how they are interacting with other cyclists. They work it out just fine. They develop their own, organic traffic laws among themselves. But the kids on Elm Street develop different rules than those on Oak Street. So right off the bat you have this individuality. There is never formal training to get all the kids in a neighborhood, town or state to follow the same set of rules.

The default when they become adults is to follow the same laws as cars. With some legal exceptions (that most drivers aren't aware of), and lots of informal exceptions that are as individual as the cyclists.

So what's the solution? Frankly, I got nothin'. You can legislate cycling behavior, but there is still going to be conflict between cars and bikes. You can build a whole other infrastructure, but there is neither the public will to pay for it, nor the inclination for cyclists to limit themselves to only using specific routes. You can do less invasive infrastructure like Sharrows, but even then there will be conflicts, and again, cyclists won't always follow the same sets of rules, so the problem of unpredictable cyclists remains.

Wait, you say. *I* am predictable. I always take the lane, I always follow traffic laws, I always do the same thing every time. But you're just one of many, and many others behave in a similarly logical (to them), but different, ways.

So can you blame motorists when you have awkward encounters, or worse, with them? On some level, yes you can. But you also have to understand that each of us carves out our piece of road in our own way. The method for cars is far more standardized and predictable than it is for bicycles. As a result, it's very difficult for drivers to predict what a cyclist will do.

Like I said, I got no solution. I just wanted to put some thoughts out there. Maybe someone smarter than me can fix this.

ghettocruiser

I do not concur with this key part of the argument.

Maybe you live in an area with different driving culture than me.

Ajenkins

I'm with ghettocruiser. Motorist behavior is all over the map. And if you look behind most auto-bicycle crashes, you will find an inattentive, distracted, drunk, sleeping, cellphone yakking, or otherwise negligent driver.

Being on the road, whether in auto or on bicycle, is a series of short, simple conversations with other road users, using signals, signs, and movement (and, yes, occasional audio) to indicate your intent. People will, by nature, be inconsistent with one another in their behavior and communications, despite the best intentions of transportation engineers. The real problem stems from the fact that, all too often, one of the conversants isn't really paying attention.

Doohickie

Right, but the conversations are in a common language among drivers. In fact, drivers get along pretty well with each other because they all speak a dialect of the same language. To them, bicycle is a foreign language with far more dialects- so many dialects that even cyclist-to-cyclist communications are often not clear.

Roughstuff

I agree not so much that the method for cars is more 'standardized and predictable...' as with a couple of parallel arguments....

(1) Cars have a series of signals and indicators (some voluntary, some not) which provide extremely valubale information about the drivers intent. By this i mean, among other things, turn signals, brake lights, stall lights, and the newer ideas such as pressure brake lights and lights that indicate you have eased off the accelerator (useful on interstates). Bicycles have none of this...and all the blabber about hand signals is worthless not only because most cyclings don't use them, but because hand signals are impractical and downright dangerous in heavy traffic.

(2) Cars have a series of injury prevention devices (now mostly automatic) that are designed to prevent minor accidents causing major injuries, and major accidents causing fatal injuries (not always effective). Among them are airbags, seatbelts, and other devices...and smart cars, which monitor distances between vehicles, etc, are on their way. In contrast, with a bicycle (much like a motorcycle, for the same reason), even the most minor infraction can cause a major injury (even a fatal one); and a major infraction is almost always fatal. Again we can whine and complain all we want, but it is an inherent weakness of a two wheeled vehicle over a four wheeled one.

Thus I always have seen myself as a secondary user on the roadways, and have felt that dollar for dollar, the best investment in bicycle safety is to improve, widen, or install road shoulders. This may be difficult in densely populated areas, but there is the other 99% of the nation's surface where it would really help.


roughstuff

Ajenkins

They absolutely do not get along pretty well with each other. In fact, they crash into one another with astounding frequency and exceeding violence. They may be speaking the same dialect, but damn few are listening.

noisebeam

I observe motor vehicle drivers as a whole to be far more consistent and predictable in behavior than cyclists. That does not mean that motorists all follow the traffic law, drive safely or intentionally communicate.

unterhausen

this is incorrect. If the motorists were driving electric open model T style cars where they could scream at each other and be heard, there would be a lot of screaming going on. I hear lots of honking. I see motorists going nuts on each other. They cut each other off and slow down in front of other motorists to "punish" them. I think I might see more anti-motorist behavior than anti-cyclist behavior just because I'm generally riding in a predictable manner. It doesn't really forgive the bad behavior addressed at me, but it's there. People abuse us because we are powerless. If we were in a car, people wouldn't abuse us the same way because you never know when you triggered a road rage incident.

Motorists don't generally use their signals. If they do, someone makes them pay for it by intentionally blocking their way. They speed, they inexplicably go slow. They dash out in front of other motorists at the last second. They roll through stop signs, sometimes at speed, often without looking. Right turn on red after stop isn't. They violate each other's right of way. They illegally pass on the shoulder. It's all over the map.

Pat

I have seen several car bike accidents. In all of these, the cyclist was on the right side of the road. They were on the right part of the line. They were riding a constant speed. And they all still got clobbered by a motorist. In my experience, predictability does not always save cyclists.

bhop

Drivers in Los Angeles are FAR from predictable. Not even the same ballpark, not even the same sport. Here, they don't get along well with each other either.

Patrick_C

I drive my bicycle like I would a motorcar. How "unpredictable" is that?

UnsafeAlpine

Thanks for bringing this up, Doohickie. Looks like you're getting clobbered by the cycling elite, though.

What many of you are saying is that motorists drive unpredictably and therefore cause accidents. This is true. My feeling is that distraction from driving is the only cause of accidents. We need to fix this, but that's not the point Doohickie is bringing up.

Last night, from my *very predictable commute to and from school, I encountered sidewalk riders, wrong way riders, sidewalk wrong way riders, stop signs and lights blown through, no light wrong way sidewalk stop sign blowing riders, you get the idea. Cyclists, as a group tend to act as though there are no laws to govern us. I'm not saying that as a negative. I think there are many laws that shouldn't apply to us, and there are things that we should do that probably warrant laws that aren't on the books. What I'm saying is that we are all over the place in terms of how we ride.

Imagine that motorists drove the way that cyclists ride, that there is absolutely no pattern to their driving. We may feel that way now, but take it one step further, no lanes, no lights, doesn't matter if you use headlights or not. Just drivers doing whatever they want. Do you think the accidents would increase? This is why traffic laws came into being. To prevent this chaotic movement.

Sure, not all motorists are predictable, but because the majority are, it makes the less predictable ones stand out. I can generally tell when a motorist will blow a stop sign, or run into the bike lane, or is driving in my lane and I can take avoidance measures. Without the predictability for cyclists, it is impossible to tell the distinction between a cyclist who will blast through a red light, and one who takes the lane and pulls in behind the car in front of him. How can I react when it is impossible to predict the cyclists actions?

Doohickie

When I talk about communication, I'm not saying everyone is nice to everyone else. But when you drive a car in traffic, with a little experience you can pretty much tell what the other cars are doing, even if they are cutting you off or going all road rage on you. Their intent is pretty clear. With bikes, even when I try to be clear about my intent and attempt to act predictably, a lot of cars just have any clue what to expect from me.

Very. Because, sir, you are in the minority. Most cyclists simply don't ride that way, so against the background of other cyclists, your behavior is very unexpected to a driver. That's the point of my remark about dialects. All cars follow pretty much the same basic dialect, with few exceptions. Bikes are all over the map. And because of that, drivers have no clue what kind of behavior to expect out of cyclists.

And bhop, I've lived, and bicycle commuted, in Los Angeles, in the vicinity of LAX (I've even ridden through the tunnel although I preferred not to). Drivers may not get along, but it's not hard, as a driver, to peacefully coexist there. I've driven in L.A. a lot and I never understood why people said it was such a terrible place to drive.

Roughstuff

I think there has been a decline in the overall level of civility on the roadways, part of the overll decline in civility in the US and elsewhere that has been going on for several decades.

But I hardly think it is the jungle out there that anti-car cyclists seem to suggest. Futhermore, the rougher the roadways (drivers, as well as surfaces) the more protection is needed for minor collisions, which is an argument in favor of CARS, not bicycles. In the rural areas where I live, i find accomodating speed demons to be very simple....let them pass.

Never been rear ended by a car in front of me.

roughstuff

ghettocruiser

Per hour and maybe per mile, I have far more incidents (from the aggression and negligence of other road users) when driving or walking compared to cycling.

That said, if I really appear so unpredictable to motorists on my bicycle, why do they pass me so close?

Doohickie

Honestly? because they don't see you until they are right up on you. They are watching the car in front of them, not looking off to the side, perhaps. Have you seen the Moonwalking Bear video? It's that effect. Even when they should be responsible, even when they should be vigilant, even when they should see you, a lot of drivers just don't see you. If they're not going to look out for you, you have to look out for yourself.

We have to learn how to cope with the environment as it is. Other people should be more responsible, but they're not. If they make a mistake, though, it's a dented fender for them, it's six months in a wheel chair for us. Because we have so much more at risk we need to be the ones to watch out, even if it means giving up our rightful place on the road. Yeah, I know I can legally take the lane, but it just seems like it's asking for trouble.

njkayaker

If driving wasn't standardized (to a large degree), cars would be running into each other at rates much, much higher rates than what is actually observed. That is, the fact that car crashes are relatively rare indicates that the majority of driving/drivers are acting in a "standardized" and "predictable" manner.

====================

Anyway, here's what I think the general problem in the US is.

Bicyclists on the road way are relatively rare in the US. Because drivers really don't see that many bicyclists on the roads, they have no idea how to act and whether it's reasonable to expect that the bicyclist is competent.

The fact that bicyclists are rare and is that bicycling is often considered something that children do, many drivers don't think that bicyclists belong on the road.

Also, many bicyclists really have no good idea of how to ride in traffic and these people appear "erratic" to drivers. Bicycling is concidered an activity that people can "just do" without lessons/training/instruction (that makes it very different than driving, which, at the least requires people to pass a test).

And, the "correct" way of riding often appears to drivers that the bicyclist is "hogging" the road and impeding traffic.


I think one thing is to teach more cyclists to ride better and teach drivers that bicycling is legitimate and legal use of the roadways. Keep in mind that the cyclists here are a select population. Presumably (hopefully), people who post here know how to ride "properly" and predictably. But people here are a small fraction of the overall population of bicyclists that drivers encounter.


It's often a choice between you and the 2 ton mass of metal coming at them fast on the left side. (Doohicky has the right idea.)

Doohickie

I think the first suggestion is possible; the second is unlikely.

I think the best approach is to light yourself up and make yourself as visible as possible, then ride like no one can see you.

njkayaker

It might be unlikely but I think it's required if things are to improve.

Always a good idea.

genec

In some respects I have to agree.

I just crossed a freeway bridge and there happened to be two other cyclists also crossing (we were not together and did not know each other) All three took different routes.

A) I stayed in the right most through lane.

B) Another cyclist hugged the curb and rode through the merge lane and at the last second caused a bus to brake as he crossed out of the merge lane back into the right most thru lane (my lane).

C) The third cyclist went against traffic, on the sidewalk.

Now motorists no doubt probably thought the third cyclist was perfect... he was "out of the way."

The second cyclist actually caused a traffic problem... so less than perfect.

Me riding in the right most thru lane... well I am sure some motorists thought I was crazy for "being out there." And no doubt motorists had to move a bit to avoid me in that lane. But I was exactly where I would have been if I were driving, albeit, way to the right of the lane. Motorists could go around me on both my left and right.

But of course the real questions are: who was safest? Who was most predictable?

See the illustration below.

genec

All those lights and indicators you mentioned in paragraph 1 are only as good as the user who chooses to use them. Granted, brake lights are pretty automatic... (stall lights???) but turn signals are subject to the whims of the driver.

At the same time, there are standard hand signals that a cyclist can use, as well as body language, and other gestures (not the one finger salute) that can convey meaning to others just as effectively as any blinking light on an automobile.

As for paragraph 2... we have little disagreement... my only comment is that such devices tend to lull the motorist into a false sense of safety, such that the result is that motorists ignore safe following rules, and tend to drive over the speed limits.

cudak888 

Typical Miami driver:

Step #1: Start car
Step #2: Turn left turn signal on.
Step #3: Drive.

-Kurt

njkayaker

What you did was very reasonable. It's necessary that drivers understand that what you did was reasonable (most of them don't).

I think many people who post here think that all (most) cyclists ride just like they do (safely/correctly). Bicyclists like people here are a small proportion of the total bicycling population. Drivers typically run across (pun intended) bicyclists with less experience and safety focus.

===================

Too strange! We have this statement followed by the following.

If turn signals use in cars is subject to a whim, then, comparatively, hand signals are (close to) never used by bicyclists! Plus, many drivers might be confused by such unfamiliar gestures!

People in the Netherlands drive the same sorts of cars (and they may even signal with more regularity). There's something else going on. (Maybe, relative rates of speeding explains some of the difference.)

===========

Even if drivers don't do things they should (like using turn signals), drivers get a lot of experience understanding how other cars around them behave. This experience takes time to develop (the lack of this experience is one reason teenagers have more accidents). Comparatively, drivers (in the US) have much, much less experience with how cyclists behave (which is different than how cars behave).

genec

Are car crashes all that rare? Around here it seems that quite a few cars have some minor dents. And certainly the various fix a dent places have become more prolific.

We tend to make judgements about crashes based on highway deaths... but the cars themselves are now even more protective of the occupants... What of the stats of crashes themselves. Often police reports are not even taken unless a collision involves a certain level of damage or lives are threatened... I don't know that crashes ARE "all that rare."

I live near a light controlled intersection and hear a collision about once a month. Usually just that loud screech of tires with a metal on metal THUMP. I rarely hear sirens after such collisions. (I cannot quite view the intersection, due to tree growth behind my yard)

genec

Exactly... my point being that both drivers and cyclists have ways to communicate... neither is exclusive of this ability... and both are subject to the whims of the operator. I dare say I can be far more expressive on my bike than I can in a car... but again... I DO have to chose to express myself at all. (I always do BTW, as part of my policy to drive and bike FRIENDLY)