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Old 05-11-04, 09:26 AM   #1
nuovorecord
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Portland Biker Brawl

From this morning's Oregonian...

So, some bikers walk into the Nocturnal's basement bar on a recent Wednesday night. They barely get settled with their brews before someone picks a fight.

Beer bottles, tables, fists and plastic foam helmets fly. Fortunately, the only chains in the vicinity are attached to the pedal cranks outside the Buckman neighborhood club.

Biker brawl, Portland style: Ten pub-crawling bicyclists versus the tipsy motorist -- whose car tires they had deflated -- along with a few of his drinking buddies.

The bicyclists say they were just trying to stop a drunk driver from killing someone.

Apparently, the altercation got going earlier in the evening at the Sunnyside neighborhood's Triple Nickel pub, where the group noticed the driver of a car parked outside was acting intoxicated.

One of them confronted the wobbly driver, suggesting he catch a cab home. When he refused, the bikers emptied their glasses, walked out, let the air out of the man's tires, and rode off.

It's still unknown how the driver and five of his friends tracked down the 10 bicyclists at the Nocturnal, but they did.

After a five-minute rumble, a biker and a bartender -- who tried to break up the fight -- needed stitches. The driver and his friends fled into the night. The police were on the way.

No arrests were made, but police officials don't exactly condone flattening tires when a drunk insists on driving. Calling 9-1-1 is usually best, they say.

"When you take on someone who is potentially intoxicated," says Sgt. Cheryl Robinson, a police spokeswoman, "you don't know what their behavior is going to be."
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Old 05-11-04, 09:34 AM   #2
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tee hee -- amazing how offended they were when all they needed was a little air - not like the tires were slashed!
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Old 05-11-04, 10:15 AM   #3
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but, robertsdvd, one should never underestimate the potential a drunk person will have for doing stupid things.
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Old 05-11-04, 02:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuovorecord
From this morning's Oregonian...

So, some bikers walk into the Nocturnal's basement bar on a recent Wednesday night. They barely get settled with their brews before someone picks a fight.

Beer bottles, tables, fists and plastic foam helmets fly. Fortunately, the only chains in the vicinity are attached to the pedal cranks outside the Buckman neighborhood club.

Biker brawl, Portland style: Ten pub-crawling bicyclists versus the tipsy motorist -- whose car tires they had deflated -- along with a few of his drinking buddies.

The bicyclists say they were just trying to stop a drunk driver from killing someone.

Apparently, the altercation got going earlier in the evening at the Sunnyside neighborhood's Triple Nickel pub, where the group noticed the driver of a car parked outside was acting intoxicated.

One of them confronted the wobbly driver, suggesting he catch a cab home. When he refused, the bikers emptied their glasses, walked out, let the air out of the man's tires, and rode off.

It's still unknown how the driver and five of his friends tracked down the 10 bicyclists at the Nocturnal, but they did.

After a five-minute rumble, a biker and a bartender -- who tried to break up the fight -- needed stitches. The driver and his friends fled into the night. The police were on the way.

No arrests were made, but police officials don't exactly condone flattening tires when a drunk insists on driving. Calling 9-1-1 is usually best, they say.

"When you take on someone who is potentially intoxicated," says Sgt. Cheryl Robinson, a police spokeswoman, "you don't know what their behavior is going to be."

It doesn't sound like the cyclists have anything on the car driver. Riding a bicycle after drinking might not mean the cyclist will hit something themselves and hurt someone, but they could still cause an accident by doing something stupid on the road.
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Old 05-11-04, 06:20 PM   #5
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I don't think there's anything wrong with what the bikers did but isn't it also the bar's responsibility that no one goes out drunk w/o getting straight into a cab, especially if they came in a car?
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Old 05-11-04, 06:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by slvoid
I don't think there's anything wrong with what the bikers did but isn't it also the bar's responsibility that no one goes out drunk w/o getting straight into a cab, especially if they came in a car?

I think that depends on state/local laws. The people might not have appeared that drunk when they walked out. Maybe they should have let the air out, then called the cops. I know that in my area, if you report a drunk driver, the cops swarm all over looking for the car on the streets.
I myself wasn't referring to what the cyclists did to the tires as wrong, but the article sounded like they were also drinking and then riding on the street. They did go from one bar to another, so they were having more than one drink.
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Old 05-11-04, 08:47 PM   #7
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The cyclists should have done something a little harder to fix than deflate the tires--cut or remove ignition wiring, perhaps a'la the nuns in "Sound of Music." It should be unambiguously legal to steal or vandalize a car if it will keep a drunk off the road, damnit!
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Old 05-11-04, 09:05 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by slvoid
I don't think there's anything wrong with what the bikers did but isn't it also the bar's responsibility that no one goes out drunk w/o getting straight into a cab, especially if they came in a car?
What makes you think the drunk would have paid any more attention to the barman than the cyclists?
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Old 05-11-04, 09:32 PM   #9
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What makes you think the drunk would have paid any more attention to the barman than the cyclists?
Well there's a bar around here where this bouncer named "Ben" who stands about 6' 8" and has arms larger than most biker's legs will physically pick you up and throw you into a waiting cab if you appear to be drunk enough and you're trying to head into your car.

While it's hard to tell if one walks out appearing absolutely sober, if asked by another patron or if appearing visibly drunk, bars have to be responsible for making sure that the patron does not get into a vehicle capable of killing or injuring anyone. In the US, there have been several cases won against bars and prescedence set (I believe) towards responsibility of the bars.
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Old 05-11-04, 09:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by slvoid
In the US, there have been several cases won against bars and prescedence set (I believe) towards responsibility of the bars.
There have been cases like that out here too. One I do remember was a guy called Dallas Johns who got drunk in Surfers Paradise, threw himself in front of a car, then sued the bar for serving him alcohol (yeah, like they had to pour it down his throat!). He got $270,000 or something. However, that is not the point. The point is that most bars do not have 6'8 security guards, and that bar staff are not always in a position to physically control the drunks. As far as I'm concerned the only solution is fascist enforcement of drunk driving laws. Rule with fear if necessary. Even a drunk can understand that.
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Old 05-11-04, 10:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscaregg
The cyclists should have done something a little harder to fix than deflate the tires--cut or remove ignition wiring, perhaps a'la the nuns in "Sound of Music." It should be unambiguously legal to steal or vandalize a car if it will keep a drunk off the road, damnit!

I believe the motor vehicle code in my state doesn't specify that you need to be in a motorized vehicle to be drunk on the road. While it's laudable to try and keep the drinking drivers off the road, the cyclists themselves were pub hopping, and shouldn't have been riding on the road either. Alcohol seems to have fueled stupidity on both sides.
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Old 05-12-04, 07:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dchiefransom
I believe the motor vehicle code in my state doesn't specify that you need to be in a motorized vehicle to be drunk on the road. While it's laudable to try and keep the drinking drivers off the road, the cyclists themselves were pub hopping, and shouldn't have been riding on the road either. Alcohol seems to have fueled stupidity on both sides.
Same rules, same rights, same responsibilites. I saw that on a cycling advocacy bumper sticker. I've had two rental customers arrested and charges with driving under the influence while on a bicycle.
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Old 05-12-04, 07:25 PM   #13
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Perhaps this is true; perhaps I simply have some maturing before me
(although I'd better get a move on if I'm going to finish maturing before
I'm too old for it to make a difference), but I will often cycle home after
a night at the bar, but I would *never* get behind the wheel of a car
after even a couple of drinks.

Fundamentally it comes down to the chance of killing someone else.
My chances of killing someone while riding the empty night-time
streets of Seattle on a bicycle are vanishingly small -- probably
lower than the chances of killing someone while riding through
those same streets sober during rush hour. But a drunk driver can
always kill someone.

I'm not saying it's not stupid, just that it's a risk I have rationally
concluded is largely to myself, and one that I am willing to take.
If I were to pit riding with a buzz on against riding without a helmet,
I'd say the latter is orders of magnitude more dangerous to everyone
than the former, at least when I am the rider.
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Old 05-12-04, 08:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscaregg
The cyclists should have done something a little harder to fix than deflate the tires--cut or remove ignition wiring, perhaps a'la the nuns in "Sound of Music." It should be unambiguously legal to steal or vandalize a car if it will keep a drunk off the road, damnit!
I don't think the authorities wish to encourage vigilantism in any form.
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Old 05-12-04, 08:53 PM   #15
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Just carry a roll of gaff tape with you and if you see a drunk person trying to get into their car, tape 'em to the hood so they can't go anywhere.
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Old 05-13-04, 12:52 AM   #16
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FYI, here's a link to a first hand account of the incident (I wrote it).
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286541.shtml

This started less than four blocks from places where 3 cyclists died when hit by drunk drivers of cars. We decided we had to do something. The bouncer was unresponsive to the matter, and our decision making was slightly impaired, but none of us have any great regrets over the matter. I'm sure that it would be different if somebody had been seriously injured in the fracas, but that's not the case. But we would've felt incredibly guilty if we'd done nothing, and woke up the next morning to find out that this driver had killed someone, be it cyclist or pedestrian, adult or child, or even another automobile driver. Taking a stand isn't always easy.

Same rights, same responsibilities, no where near the same potential to kill or mame.
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Old 05-13-04, 08:17 AM   #17
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Mess with with my truck--my motorcycle or my bike----and you'll have problems BIG TIME-------drunk or not.

And NO---I don't drink anymore.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.
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Old 05-13-04, 12:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
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FYI, here's a link to a first hand account of the incident (I wrote it).
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286541.shtml

This started less than four blocks from places where 3 cyclists died when hit by drunk drivers of cars. We decided we had to do something. .... Taking a stand isn't always easy.
Hey BikeBike1 can we start calling you sluggo?

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Old 05-13-04, 01:30 PM   #19
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Drunk drivers are scum.
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Old 05-13-04, 01:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dchiefransom
It doesn't sound like the cyclists have anything on the car driver. Riding a bicycle after drinking might not mean the cyclist will hit something themselves and hurt someone, but they could still cause an accident by doing something stupid on the road.
I have to agree with this post. What I read here is that a bunch of cyclists, IN A BAR DRINKING, took exception to an auto driver IN A BAR DRINKING.
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Old 05-13-04, 02:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by OmahaRider
Mess with with my truck--my motorcycle or my bike----and you'll have problems BIG TIME-------drunk or not.

And NO---I don't drink anymore.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.
Does not messing with a guy's ride include not smashing the windshield when your head smashes into it at 40km/hr?




Quote:
Originally Posted by don d.
I have to agree with this post. What I read here is that a bunch of cyclists, IN A BAR DRINKING, took exception to an auto driver IN A BAR DRINKING.
No, if you go to the IMC posting, you can read that we took exception to someone almost hitting 3-4 cyclists(all equipped with lights), and then going into a bar to drink -more-. When confronted about it, the driver was beligerent and aggressive.
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Old 05-13-04, 02:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by OmahaRider
Mess with with my truck--my motorcycle or my bike----and you'll have problems BIG TIME-------drunk or not.

And NO---I don't drink anymore.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.
Park in the bike lane, I'll pull a valve stem or two, no qualms about it. Some cyclists will take a window out on the fly with their U-lock in response to unsafe driving stunts or behavior. Motorists need to learn that they don't own the road. Since cyclists have learned that they generally can't rely on the state to look out for their rights and safety, there are those cyclists who are more than willing to take matters into their own hands.
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Old 05-13-04, 02:41 PM   #23
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I have to agree with this post. What I read here is that a bunch of cyclists, IN A BAR DRINKING, took exception to an auto driver IN A BAR DRINKING.

Some points I haven't seen mentioned yet, so I'll mention them:
- Being personally acquainted with the group involved, and having been on many Bike Pub Crawls in Portland, I can assure you that riding around drunk is not what transpires. There is not a great quantity of alcohol consumed, mostly socializing. I've never seen anyone unable to control their cycle.
- As I understand the situation, the motorist in question had fishtailed around a corner, nearly hitting four cyclists while driving in the wrong lane, before even going into the Triple Nickel to consume MORE beer. When confronted before going in, he was unapologetic. When confronted again about getting home by alternate means before LEAVING the TN, now completely smashed drunk, he was belligerent.
- I'm well acquainted with the police response to calls about drunks attempting to drive. On occasions when they respond at all, it is often long after the drunk has driven away. As far as I'm concerned, the cyclists may have saved a life, or lives, by letting the air out of the tires.
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Old 05-13-04, 03:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaRider
You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.
The use of a vehicle as an extension of "manly ego" (or other "manly" things) is a large part of the problem. "You just don't "F" with a guy's ride." is code for "I'm insecure and will become irrationally violent if my ego-enhancer is threatened." Sheesh.
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Old 05-13-04, 03:13 PM   #25
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You little do-gooding punks are lucky you didn't get shot-----then where would you be??

Actually---they do own the road-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses??? My truck and motorcycle go on the road-----my bike stays on the trails. Don't you know you can get killed on the road???---lol

Take a stand???? Ever thought of getting the guy's keys----calling him a cab----or calling the cops???

Sorry---but holier than thou A-holes just plain piss me off-----go live in China if you want to control peoples lives so much.


Nothing irrational---insecure or "ego" about it-----my truck costed big bucks----my motorcycle costed big bucks and my bicycle costed big bucks------screw with those and you are costing me money----that I worked hard for-------I'm sorry that you are losers in life and can't afford anything nice.

Since you guys are soooooo brave---go knock over a Hell's Angel's bike and see where that gets you------what??? you say --no way---------I didn't think so. Call me when your Momma wipes your nose and gives you some real balls. Cause I gotta see this.

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