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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    The motorists don't care about your lane position

    riding this last week or so, I've been dissappointed by several motorists swinging way wide around my center of the lane position to short turn a right in front of me. I had one guy position himself for a right turn in the LEFT turn lane approaching an intersection because I was full in the straight/right turn lane. We both approached the intersection simulataneously with his truck nosing ahead of me with its' right turn blinker on. pathetic.

    a couple right hooked me yesterday, they got a few feet ahead crossing the double yellow as i was centered in the lane, to cut me off to make a right turn in front of me. i had to slow and swing way wide in a 'bumper lateral' to avoid them as they spooled up to make the turn right in front of me. no patience at all, they could have slowed down and waited less than five seconds...

    and a different, crossing manuver.....a motorist in a hurry to enter a one-way arterial making a left was going to cut my girlfriend and I off as we proceeded straight across the intersection. he was too impatient to wait his turn and was just rolling the stopsign directly behind a delivery van despite him needing to stop and yield to us- traffic proceeding straight thru the intersection. pathetic again.

    I don't know how some of y'all brazenly expect to evaporate intersection conflicts with lane position as some motorists will ignore destination positioning, ignore rules of the road and try to get a transitory road advantage or pass you regardless.

    and if a bicyclist positions themselves so far to the left of a lane motorists pass on the right, opening themself up to left hooks from behind as motorists want to speed up to pass on the right to make a left turn.

    motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-20-09 at 09:52 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #2
    Senior Member djetelina's Avatar
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    A little light on the subject

    Here in Houston, motorists are generally pretty considerate. But not always. When riding in groups, cars are very seldom any problem When solo, problems sometimes pop up. My solution is as follows:
    1_ Front light from Planet Bike. Has flashing mode, sells for about $40, think it is their "1 watt" model.
    2_Taillight from Dinotte in New Hampshire; about $120. A REALLY bright taillight.
    With that the table is set for item #3.
    3_ A really loud vocal annunciation to any driver who fails to realize that I am serious when it comes to my health and well-being.

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I run daytime viz flashers- 3 watt front on flash - and wear high viz and position myself quite assertively.

    I have come to expect these traffic transgressions. I find the 'lane position as cure all' pablum of the vehikular cyklists crowd leaves something to be desired in actual execution.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #4
    Senior Member Kurt Erlenbach's Avatar
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    I find it very entertaining to move to the center of the lane when approaching a stop, and then watching the drivers experience the primal urge to pass and end up in the wrong lane at the stop. The idiocy of these people never ceases to amaze me.

  5. #5
    Yabba-Dabba-Doo! AlmostTrick's Avatar
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    Yeah, motorists still sometimes pull stupid stunts that cyclists need to be prepared to avoid, but you have to admit that assertive lane position reduces the frequency of these incidents. Lane position as a "cure all"? I don't think anyone who rides regularly would say that. Maybe a cure most?

    The silliest thing about the whole impatient motorist thing, is the fact that they have a pedal connected to hundreds of horse power. With a light push of it, they could easily speed back up to the exact position they would have been in, had they not been momentarily held up by a cyclist. Ugh.
    Have Bike, Will Travel

  6. #6
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    At least I get less flat tires out there.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I run daytime viz flashers- 3 watt front on flash - and wear high viz and position myself quite assertively.

    I have come to expect these traffic transgressions. I find the 'lane position as cure all' pablum of the vehikular cyklists crowd leaves something to be desired in actual execution.
    Your personal and unbiased observations have totally destroyed the vehikular cyklist movement. Very well done. Now kindly address Muslim extremism. Can't last more than a couple of weeks once you are on the job.

  8. #8
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    wow, an unabashed critic & new to the forums. welcome.


    as to dismissing vehikular cyklings tenets- i'd put the blame squarely on the motorists who don't give a rats' behind about bicyclists using destination positioning.

    I find the pablum of lane positioning as a cure to intersection conflicts wildly overemphasized.....the motorists don't care about your lane position, and some will hook you regardless of lane position.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-20-09 at 11:57 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  9. #9
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    I watch my rear view mirror. You can usually predict which ones need extra instructions.

    When vehicles following me don't move over as they approach from a distance - I do!

    I find that taking the lane then forces them to move over to the next lane while passing.

    Doing otherwise usually results in a buzz.....

  10. #10
    www.chipsea.blogspot.com ChipSeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    As to dismissing vehikular cyklings tenets- I'd put the blame squarely on the motorists who don't give a rats' behind about bicyclists using destination positioning.

    I find the pablum of lane positioning as a cure to intersection conflicts wildly overemphasized.....the motorists don't care about your lane position, and some will hook you regardless of lane position.
    Good point, Bek. Will you be returning to gutter-hugging now? Do explain your future lane-positioning plans and reasons for doing so in light of this thread.
    Vehicular cycling techniques have not been tried and found difficult. They have been presumed difficult and not tried.

  11. #11
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.

  12. #12
    www.chipsea.blogspot.com ChipSeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djetelina View Post
    Here in Houston, motorists are generally pretty considerate. But not always. When riding in groups, cars are very seldom any problem When solo, problems sometimes pop up. My solution is as follows:
    (snip) (Summery of snipped content: Use flashing lights and yell)
    The problem is not a failure to be seen, the problem is reckless motorists.
    Vehicular cycling techniques have not been tried and found difficult. They have been presumed difficult and not tried.

  13. #13
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
    Lane position as a "cure all"? I don't think anyone who rides regularly would say that. Maybe a cure most?
    Of course not. This is just another strawman/trolling post.

  14. #14
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    You know what though, people don't just treat bikes this way. I can't tell you how many times I've been passed only to have the person pull back in front of me then turn right causing me to have to hit the brakes. I remember one pretty clear a couple I almost hit because of their tinted tail lights so I couldn't even tell they hit the brakes, or the volvo wagon that made a right turn from the left lane right in front of me. They usually do this because I am going close to the speed limit or I stopped at the red light/stop sign. This is while driving.

  15. #15
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    I get idiots who haul ass to pass me within, say 500ft, of a stop about once a month, and I've even seen them do it to Amish buggies. I probably get one who barely avoids oncoming traffic (or me) weekly. All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  16. #16
    "Per Ardua ad Surly" nelson249's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
    I get idiots who haul ass to pass me within, say 500ft, of a stop about once a month, and I've even seen them do it to Amish buggies. I probably get one who barely avoids oncoming traffic (or me) weekly. All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid.
    You can say that again. Stupid people find all sorts of idiotic things to do regardless of the precautions taken ... the trick is being out of the line of fire.... Sometimes I feel like Jane Goodall watching all the chimps as I move through traffic .... Come to think of it the chimps are probably smarter....
    1997 Mongoose Hilltopper, 1988 Bianchi Specialissima, 2006 Surly Cross-Check, 2010 Norco City Glide, 1947 CCM Single-speed.

    "Take him to the forge and show him the instruments"
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  17. #17
    Warning:Mild Peril Treespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
    I get idiots who haul ass to pass me within, say 500ft, of a stop about once a month, and I've even seen them do it to Amish buggies. I probably get one who barely avoids oncoming traffic (or me) weekly. All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid.
    Bump
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  18. #18
    Conservative Hippie
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    Lane positioning doesn't eliminate these types of conflicts, if only mitigates them. It also gives the cyclist more options as to an escape when the terminally stupid are encountered.

  19. #19
    uke
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    it's easy if you let it. uke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.
    Yup.

    JesseDuncan:I just love how "cars will be forced to cross the double yellow lines on dangerous limited visibility roads".

    I don't want to have a head on but oh god, I HAVE to fling myself into oncoming traffic to pass, theres no alternative!!!

  20. #20
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ...no patience at all, they could have slowed down and waited less than five seconds...

    ...some of y'all brazenly expect to evaporate intersection conflicts with lane position as some motorists will ignore destination positioning, ignore rules of the road and try to get a transitory road advantage or pass you regardless.
    They MUST pass! Don't you know that?

    I don't use lane position to "evaporate intersection conflict" - I use speed. Even a Ferrari can't make a 90 degree right turn at 20+ mph. Just can't be done. I too find that lane position alone prevents nothing from overtaking vehicles.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  21. #21
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Tonight I had a motorist just miss me by a few inches, then only to 45 degree dive into a parking space 50 ft. in front of me while I was doing 18 mph. I also happen to be on the inside edge of a local bike lane, in enough away to avoid doors, but out just enough to avoid conflicts with most motorists.

  22. #22
    Senior Member slagjumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ...and if a bicyclist positions themselves so far to the left of a lane motorists pass on the right, opening themself up to left hooks from behind as motorists want to speed up to pass on the right to make a left turn.

    At the risk of sounding paternalistic or worse.. dont get hit out there!

    Perhaps the NWestern motorists are getting too wise to wise cyclists. Why not play dumb, by, (with full awarness of what's rreally behind you), move from slightly right of the center of the lane to within a foot of the left side as you near the intersection? You could fake a distraction, to telegraph, "I am a dumb, distracted cyclist, I might hit you and cause you to fill out a lot of paperwork"

    For some reason, this projection of stupidity also disarms hostility.

    I also find that people do this because they are of course in a hurry, but also because they cannot well judge speed and distance. Perhaps they are of old age, are new drivers, have misbalanced eyesight or are inpaired.

    What about looking back, seeing that they want to turn, then moving to the left lane? Boy that just sounds bad as I write it.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerlenbach View Post
    I find it very entertaining to move to the center of the lane when approaching a stop, and then watching the drivers experience the primal urge to pass and end up in the wrong lane at the stop. The idiocy of these people never ceases to amaze me.
    Ahhhh yes, the drivers that have no idea what's going on ahead of them more than one car length away.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

  24. #24
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    riding this last week or so, I've been dissappointed by several motorists swinging way wide around my center of the lane position to short turn a right in front of me. I had one guy position himself for a right turn in the LEFT turn lane approaching an intersection because I was full in the straight/right turn lane. We both approached the intersection simulataneously with his truck nosing ahead of me with its' right turn blinker on. pathetic.

    a couple right hooked me yesterday, they got a few feet ahead crossing the double yellow as i was centered in the lane, to cut me off to make a right turn in front of me. i had to slow and swing way wide in a 'bumper lateral' to avoid them as they spooled up to make the turn right in front of me. no patience at all, they could have slowed down and waited less than five seconds...

    and a different, crossing manuver.....a motorist in a hurry to enter a one-way arterial making a left was going to cut my girlfriend and I off as we proceeded straight across the intersection. he was too impatient to wait his turn and was just rolling the stopsign directly behind a delivery van despite him needing to stop and yield to us- traffic proceeding straight thru the intersection. pathetic again.

    I don't know how some of y'all brazenly expect to evaporate intersection conflicts with lane position as some motorists will ignore destination positioning, ignore rules of the road and try to get a transitory road advantage or pass you regardless.

    and if a bicyclist positions themselves so far to the left of a lane motorists pass on the right, opening themself up to left hooks from behind as motorists want to speed up to pass on the right to make a left turn.

    motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.
    I tried to make this point with Helmet Head years ago, but he wasn't buying it. The bottom line is that cyclists are viewed as obstructions, less even than a dog in the road, as we are viewed as being "smart enough to not be there," but stubborn enough to "prove a point." Thus motorists chose to "fight us." Thus we get the attitudes, the trash throwing, the affronts, and the brazen motorists that just want to "teach us a lesson."

    But just remember "if you act like the driver of a vehicle, you will be treated like a driver of a vehicle."

  25. #25
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I tried to make this point with Helmet Head years ago, but he wasn't buying it. The bottom line is that cyclists are viewed as obstructions, less even than a dog in the road, as we are viewed as being "smart enough to not be there," but stubborn enough to "prove a point." Thus motorists chose to "fight us." Thus we get the attitudes, the trash throwing, the affronts, and the brazen motorists that just want to "teach us a lesson."

    But just remember "if you act like the driver of a vehicle, you will be treated like a driver of a vehicle."
    I've come to the conclusion that it's not cyclists that are viewed as an obstruction. They view the world and everything in it as an obstruction.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

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