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  1. #1
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Portland Changes Mind on Location of Cycle Track

    So the Fire Bureau nixed the previous location. Note that in the new location right turns are not possible - it abuts a limited-access university campus on the west or right side - so there are no real hooking hazards (except from University personnel). This may in fact be one of the few locations in Portland where a facility like this does make sense.

    Let's just hope the city doesn't extrapolate the results to other locations with much, much higher 'hooking' risks.

    I still think this is largely a political move to appease a certain dutch-o-phile constituency Adams made promises to during the election cycle.


    http://bikeportland.org/2009/04/30/a...o-sw-broadway/



    Last edited by randya; 04-30-09 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    So it's OK for university personnel, the confused, lost or those drivers looking (perhaps unsuccessfully) for a short cut to potentially right hook cyclists? Thinking there is no right hook hazard when there is still one, even if less, is possibly more risky than being alert to the possibility when the likelihood is higher.

    Are there also left turns along this stretch? If so will cyclists be allowed to use the primary travel lanes instead (or not because bike lane use is mandatory?)

    Is 3' sufficient shy zone?

    Who has the right of way, pedestrians traveling to/from vehicles crossing path to/from sidewalk or cyclists? Are there effectively unmarked crosswalks between each car door and the sidewalk?
    Last edited by noisebeam; 04-30-09 at 04:07 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    ^^all good points. Personally, I think pedestrians in the cycle track ROW are going to be a big problem, they will probably congregate in it waiting for the light to change to cross the street, and use it as an extension of the sidewalk. And I beleive use of the primary travel lanes for left turns will be a questionable legal maneuver, since Oregon has a mandatory side path law, ORS 814.420.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    And I beleive use of the primary travel lanes for left turns will be a questionable legal maneuver, since Oregon has a mandatory side path law, ORS 814.420.
    Not applicable for a left-turning cyclist.

  5. #5
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
    Not applicable for a left-turning cyclist.
    How soon can one become a left turning cyclist?

    If there are only limited and difficult (as it can't be merge, but a sharp left) opportunities to move from the cycle track to the primary travel lanes, would it be acceptable to use the primary travel lanes for this entire stretch even if the left turn is toward the end of it?

    Or another way of saying this is can one pass a possible left turn while using the primary travel lanes and not be considered a non-left turning cyclist?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    How soon can one become a left turning cyclist?

    If there are only limited and difficult (as it can't be merge, but a sharp left) opportunities to move from the cycle track to the primary travel lanes, would it be acceptable to use the primary travel lanes for this entire stretch even if the left turn is toward the end of it?

    Or another way of saying this is can one pass a possible left turn while using the primary travel lanes and not be considered a non-left turning cyclist?
    The standard is always going to be the "reasonable person" standard. The question then is "what would a reasonable person do in the same circumstance?"

    The statute says you can leave the bike lane to "prepare" for a left turn. What distance would be necessary for the "reasonable person" to "prepare" to make that left turn? If there are only limited opportunities to leave the cycle track, then a reasonable person would need (at least) the distance from where one can first leave the cycletrack to where one can turn.

    Of course, there's nothing in the law that says you can't turn left by first crossing the intersection and then repositioning yourself to cross again, in the direction you want to go.

  7. #7
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
    Not applicable for a left-turning cyclist.
    leaving a cycle track to make a left turn is a whole lot different than leaving a bike lane to make a left turn; it's kind of hard to get from the cycle track to the left turn lane with all those parked cars in the way, eh?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    leaving a cycle track to make a left turn is a whole lot different than leaving a bike lane to make a left turn; it's kind of hard to get from the cycle track to the left turn lane with all those parked cars in the way, eh?
    Perhaps, but there's nothing "legally qquestionable" about making a left turn from outside of the bike lane.

    I'm not really too worried about it. Turning left would only require crossing the intersection, then turning left.

  9. #9
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    I don't see why they just don't remove all of the parking on the west side of the street, then there would be a 15' wide bike lane with clear access to the adjacent travel lanes to make left turning maneuvers. 7' + 3' buffer is not a whole lot of space for cyclists, similar objections regarding how narrow the proposed cycle track is were raised w/r/t the earlier NW Park blocks proposal.

  10. #10
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
    Perhaps, but there's nothing "legally qquestionable" about making a left turn from outside of the bike lane.

    I'm not really too worried about it. Turning left would only require crossing the intersection, then turning left.
    you're not really making any sense at all here, maybe a picture would help?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    I don't see why they just don't remove all of the parking on the west side of the street, then there would be a 15' wide bike lane with clear access to the adjacent travel lanes to make left turning maneuvers. 7' + 3' buffer is not a whole lot of space for cyclists, similar objections regarding how narrow the proposed cycle track is were raised w/r/t the earlier NW Park blocks proposal.
    I agree, too much of our road space is dedicated to storing automobiles. If they were off the streets, there'd be a lot of space freed up for other modes of travel.

    Doesn't mean I have the same objection to parking bikes on the public way, mind.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    you're not really making any sense at all here, maybe a picture would help?
    I can't draw, doubly so with tech.

    What I mean is instead of getting in the left lane to turn left, just proceeding straight across the intersection, stopping on the other side, then reorienting yourself so you're facing in the direction you wanted to turn, and proceeding straight across the intersection. What do they call that, the "Copenhagen left" or something like that? Anyway, if a cycletrack made a traditional left turn more difficult, I'd just do the above.

  13. #13
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    that's a two step left turn. TriMet is recommending it for bikes on the new bus mall. It can be done, but I would not exactly call it 'bike friendly'.

    but I suppose since the motorists can't do it, we're either one up on them or 'special'

    Last edited by randya; 04-30-09 at 10:23 PM.

  14. #14
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    I would be concerned with the cleanliness of this line. It seems to me that it could easily get cluttered and become unfit for riding, especially if cars do not regularly travel down it.

  15. #15
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    What or how will the light be triggered the light if a two step is done?

    Who decides what of the choices is reasonable?

    If one can't take the safe and practical choice and down the entire stretch in the primary travel lanes with confidence that it is considered reasonable by all law enforcement then the only reasonable choice would be to avoid this cycle tracked street.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyhippy View Post
    I would be concerned with the cleanliness
    Since when has a dirty hippy been concerned with cleanliness?


  17. #17
    biking and fighting!
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    I am glad they are no longer planning to destroy Park and 9th with this thing, although I don't expect the results of the new plan will be much better. I guess we can view it as a "pilot project" that will display the virtues or faults of the cycle track concept in a North American setting. I of course predict that it will be far more problematic than advantageous. Hopefully people will pay attention to the results.

    We already know that bike boulevards *do* work here, and wish we would stick with that solution rather than engaging in this Euro-fetishism. Park and 9th, which isn't commonly used as a thoroughfare for cars anyway, would actually work really well as a north-south bike boulevard -- improve the crossings (especially around Burnside), remove the parking, and put in a few barriers to prevent it from being used as a through street for automobiles. People who don't like biking in even the relatively slow traffic of downtown could lock up on the bike boulevard and walk the rest of the way to their destination.

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    With the three-foot 'shy zone' still in place, bicyclists on the inside edge of the track will still be surprised by occasional car doors thrown open by passengers who reasonably expect not to door anyone when throwing open their doors. Still seems like a serious liability no-no for the city.

  19. #19
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    With the three-foot 'shy zone' still in place, bicyclists on the inside edge of the track will still be surprised by occasional car doors thrown open by passengers who reasonably expect not to door anyone when throwing open their doors. Still seems like a serious liability no-no for the city.
    That's what I thought as well, note also the elevation view (in Randya's OP) shows two cyclists side by side on the cycle track - and considering that cyclists may keep wheels within white lines, but have their body/bike hang over the left white line. There is also no physical barrier preventing some vehicles to be parked right up against or even slightly over the left side line of the shy zone.

    The narrow space that is the shy zone is very limited for pedestrians when loading/unloading vehicles - especially those with disabilities, with baby strollers, etc.

    Al

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