Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 43

Thread: Greenway Speed

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    My Bikes
    2002 Giant OCR 3, 2003 Giant OCR Elite, 2004 Giant TCR, 2004 Giant OCR Touring, 2003 Giant Iguana, 2004 Cannondale Ironman 800, 2005 Giant Trance 3
    Posts
    760
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Greenway Speed

    Nashville has built a lot of Greenways. Now, they have determined that no one should exceed 15 mph on them. I am thinking, what the hell??? What is wrong with going faster than 15 mph if you average 19+?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Flagstaff, AZ
    My Bikes
    Marin Pt. Reyes, Gary Fisher HiFi Pro, Easy Racers Gold Rush recumbent, Cannondale F600
    Posts
    976
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    These greenways are multi-user paths, and many in other areas have speed limits as well. They're not designed or intended for high speed cycling due to the mix of users. I've seen cops set up cyclist speed traps on one of my local MUPS in Seattle. If you want to ride fast, best to avoid MUPS altogether.

  3. #3
    Pro Paper Plane Pilot wunderkind's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,624
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here in Vancouver, we have a greenway stretch too. It's shared by peds, cyclists, skateboarders and roller bladers. Not sure how yours is designed. However the greenway that we have is built under the guiderails of a MRT system. So along the way there are huge columns rising in b/t the greenway which causes blind spots despite the greenway is mostly straight.
    I can imagine a dog walker hidden behind one of these columns because little Rex wants to take a piss. Then emerging suddenly out of the column while a cyclists may be bombing down the greenway at high speed. KABLAM! Little rex gets runned over and cyclist get road rash. It can happen.
    There's a discussion on this now amongst the greenway users blog.
    Vancouver Modern Portrait Photography

    Zenfolio.com membership discount code: UBV-HJY-SCY

  4. #4
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,964
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There is no one speed that is safe. It is beyond stupid to have a 15mph limit on a straight intersectionless section with no one else nearby.

    If they want a guideline it should be something like:
    Reduce speed when approaching pedestrians and only pass at a safe speed and distance.
    Post SL for blind corners, maybe 15mph, maybe 20, maybe 25 depending on specifics of corner.
    Also SL posted at stop approaches

    This is how it is done for roadways.

  5. #5
    Que CERA, CERA jefferee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kitchener, ON
    Posts
    873
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If there are a lot of pedestrians around, even 15 mph can be too fast to be safe.

    Greenways and MUPs have their places, but a lot of them (including every one I've seen in my area) aren't suited for high-tempo training rides or covering a lot of distance in a hurry.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorMantra View Post
    Cycling (taken to the typical roadie extreme) causes you to cough up your own soul as every fibre of your worthless being sings in choral agony. Once you embrace the pain everything is dandy.

  6. #6
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The City of Raleigh, NC has a maximum speed limit of 10 mph on greenways.
    http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/ser...and_Safet.html

    I think this is the result of some high-profile pedestrian-bicyclist collisions that resulted in serious injuries to the pedestrians.

    Cary's is 15 mph.

    Many of these facilities lack adequate sight lines for traveling much over 15 mph and are too narrow for passing pedestrians and pets at such speeds. Older greenways here were designed as pedestrian facilities and often featured steps and non-ADA-compliant surface discontinuities at curbs. Some of the newer greenways are wider, straighter, and have better sight lines.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    My Bikes
    2002 Giant OCR 3, 2003 Giant OCR Elite, 2004 Giant TCR, 2004 Giant OCR Touring, 2003 Giant Iguana, 2004 Cannondale Ironman 800, 2005 Giant Trance 3
    Posts
    760
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    See that is what I don't get. Why do they stress that Greenways are also for commuting? How are you going to effectively commute if you can't exceed 10 to 15 mph?

  8. #8
    Senior Member alhedges's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Naptown
    My Bikes
    NWT 24sp DD; Brompton M6R
    Posts
    1,133
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Part of our greenway has a 15 mph speed limit after various collisions, more near misses, and the (ab)use of the greenway by people riding on it in pacelines.

  9. #9
    LCI #1853
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Scott. Arkansas
    My Bikes
    Trek Madone 5.2, Fisher Caliber 29er, Orbea Onix
    Posts
    666
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Greenways and multi-use paths are shared with pedestrians, runners, skaters, folks walking their dogs on those nearly-invisible leashes, little kids on tricycles, etc. Under these conditions they're no place for high-speed riding. Pedestrians have the right-of-way here, they're the more vulnerable users.

    If ya gotta go fast, then get on the street with the cagers. The speed limit is higher there, and there's far less chance of running amuck with the pedestrians.

  10. #10
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,964
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Will cyclist on the MUP be given an 11mph over speed tolerance like motorists on the roadway?

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    478
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    Will cyclist on the MUP be given an 11mph over speed tolerance like motorists on the roadway?
    Good point. I remember with mobile photoradar it was set to trigger at over 10mph due to possible errors and leeway. 25mph seems a reasonable speed .... I could barely maintain 22mph for short burts on the middle ring.

  12. #12
    Genius FlatMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Auburn, AL
    My Bikes
    Specilized Sirrus
    Posts
    324
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't see what's wrong with letting it fly on a big open stretch, but passing anyone, Im at least <15
    Ride or Die

  13. #13
    Dogs like me. Ajenkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    361
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You got sold a bill of goods. MUPs are lousy for commuting, or getting from A to B. If you want to get from A to B, ride the road like you're supposed to. If you want a nice meander with the kids or GF, take the MUP.

    I've never been a big fan of the whole MUP thing.

  14. #14
    Senior Member shmily_dana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    181
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've seen beach MUPs with 5mph limits. I would ride them in the winter a lot. Got warnings from the beach patrol a few times. "Slow for pedestrians...What pedestrians????"

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    478
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajenkins View Post
    You got sold a bill of goods. MUPs are lousy for commuting, or getting from A to B. If you want to get from A to B, ride the road like you're supposed to. If you want a nice meander with the kids or GF, take the MUP.

    I've never been a big fan of the whole MUP thing.
    Depends on how much foot traffic and if it goes to your destination. There is no stop sign so it would be faster for me to take the MUP to go to college or shopping or even go to work downtown or the airport.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,793
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A: if you're AVERAGING 19+, you NEED to be on the road, get off the MUP.

    B: MUPs are not all that bad for commuting, and trust me -- not everybody busts 19+ or even more on a commute. There are those of us who don't care about getting from A to B in the fastest time possible.

    C: Speed limits on MUPs are just like speed limits on the road -- they apply regardless of traffic volume. It's not OK to do 80 down the center of town at 3 AM just because the streets are empty, same with cycling on the MUP. Use a little sense -- rules of the road, the MUP, all of it, are for the unexpected; if all you had to worry about was the EXPECTED, you wouldn't need insurance, would you? You do 22 on the MUP, swoop a curve, and take out a stroller, well...hope & pray it doesn't belong to someone in my family.....

  17. #17
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
    My Bikes
    Specialized Hardrock Mountain; Giant Seek 2
    Posts
    8,734
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by shmily_dana View Post
    I've seen beach MUPs with 5mph limits. I would ride them in the winter a lot. Got warnings from the beach patrol a few times. "Slow for pedestrians...What pedestrians????"
    I can cost faster then 5MPH, how is one suppose to maintain such a slow speed? I mean even in a car that speed would be pretty hard to maintain. At least not without riding the brakes, even then I'd bet they'd be going faster then 5MPH.

    Hell, I think that it's safe to say that I walk faster then 5MPH.
    Digital Cowboy
    Cyclists Against Carlos Bertonatti
    1.0.0 Normal Grey Cockatiel (Hikaru)
    0.0.1 2005 Specialized Hardrock MTB
    0.0.2 Albino Cory Cats
    0.0.? Ghost Shrimp
    0.0.3 Neon Tetras
    1.0.0 Red Betta
    0.0.? Snails
    1.2.0 Swordtail
    2.10.0 Swordtail (fry)
    0.0.3 Zebra's
    0.0.1 G. rosea (Kirk)
    0.0.1 A. avicularia (Pinkie)
    0.1.0 Orange Tabby Cat (Little One)
    0.0.1 2009 Giant Seek 2
    Live Long and Prosper

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The fish are spread out between several tanks.

  18. #18
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,964
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    C: Speed limits on MUPs are just like speed limits on the road -- they apply regardless of traffic volume. It's not OK to do 80 down the center of town at 3 AM just because the streets are empty, same with cycling on the MUP. Use a little sense -- rules of the road, the MUP, all of it, are for the unexpected; if all you had to worry about was the EXPECTED, you wouldn't need insurance, would you? You do 22 on the MUP, swoop a curve, and take out a stroller, well...hope & pray it doesn't belong to someone in my family.....
    The difference is that MUP SLs unlike road SLs are typically set for the entire MUP even if it varies in design, grades, curves, sight lines, intersections, usage patterns. Also a 15mph SL is overly slow for when there are no other users - the reaction and stopping times don't warrant 15mph with good sightlines. Just as roads are rarely set with a permanent 15mph PSL. Also consider reasonable and prudent as it applies to roadways:
    " A. A person shall not drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the circumstances, conditions and actual and potential hazards then existing. A person shall control the speed of a vehicle as necessary to avoid colliding with any object, person, vehicle or other conveyance on, entering or adjacent to the highway in compliance with legal requirements and the duty of all persons to exercise reasonable care for the protection of others.

    B. Except as provided in subsections C and D of this section or except if a special hazard requires a lesser speed, any speed in excess of the following speeds is prima facie evidence that the speed is too great and therefore unreasonable:

    1. Fifteen miles per hour approaching a school crossing.
    2. Twenty-five miles per hour in a business or residential district.
    3. Sixty-five miles per hour in other locations.

    C. The speed limits prescribed in this section may be altered as authorized in sections 28-702 and 28-703.

    D. The maximum speed provided in this section is reduced to the speed that is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and with regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing, including the following conditions:

    1. Approaching and crossing an intersection or railroad crossing.
    2. Approaching and going around a curve.
    3. Approaching a hillcrest.
    4. Traveling on a narrow or winding roadway.
    5. A special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians or other traffic or by reason of weather or highway conditions."

    Of course there are MUPs where 15mph is a good speed limit for the full length, but too often 15mph is just arbitrairly placed on MUPs as a one size fits all variations in design.
    Last edited by noisebeam; 07-29-09 at 07:33 PM.

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,793
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OK, how about 'one size fits most', which is closer to the reality? If you don't fit with the 'most', then you just have to deal. It's part of being in a civilized society, nobody gets all they want, so all can get some of what they want.

  20. #20
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    AZ
    My Bikes
    Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
    Posts
    13,964
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you are suggesting I am a proponent of rule by the greedy few then you have sorely missed my point.
    Many MUPs in the US are lacking in practicality for transport because they are not engineered for anything other than getting a surface in place between A and B with some aesthetics thrown in with no regard as to how and who will use them. A decent path design will consider this and have designs with appropriate widths, considerations for sightlines, considerations for separating pedestrian and vehicular users at key point, etc. As a continuation of this engineering work speed limits would vary as well.

  21. #21
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Green Valley AZ
    My Bikes
    Trice Q; Volae Century; TT 3.4
    Posts
    3,772
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pletcgm View Post
    Nashville has built a lot of Greenways. Now, they have determined that no one should exceed 15 mph on them. I am thinking, what the hell??? What is wrong with going faster than 15 mph if you average 19+?
    Do you live or work in Nashville? If so, think locally. Who are the "they" above who set the speed limit? What is their thinking? What can you learn from them? What contributions can you make?
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  22. #22
    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Salsa, Cannondale, Surly.
    Posts
    2,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajenkins View Post
    You got sold a bill of goods. MUPs are lousy for commuting, or getting from A to B. If you want to get from A to B, ride the road like you're supposed to. If you want a nice meander with the kids or GF, take the MUP.

    I've never been a big fan of the whole MUP thing.
    I found a coupla pics online. You can separate the peds from the bikes.



    This one runs a few blocks North of the busier greenway.


  23. #23
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Note that many MUPs are designed by landscape architects, not transportation engineers, and a popular design principle in the landscape architecture profession is the "meandering" path. The principle is to add intrigue and variation to the path by intentionally curving it around natural obstructions like hills and trees to reduce sight distances. They often add such sight obstructions to straight, open areas as part of the construction to achieve their objective. Their design user is recreational pedestrians, who get bored on very long straight stretches of pavement.

    Clearly, they are using the opposite set of design criteria from what is appropriate for vehicular facility design. There are some MUPS that lend themselves well to travel at high cycling speeds, such as some rail trails, but only if the most aesthetics-oriented landscape designers haven't had their way. To be fair, some of the landscape architects have become aware of design requirements for vehicular use, but others have not.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 07-30-09 at 07:49 AM.

  24. #24
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,645
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think 15 is a good speed limit on most of the MUPs I've seen. 10 or 5 is just saying that it's a pedestrian path, and I'm going to ride elsewhere. We do have some hills on a local MUP where there are almost never any pedestrians and going 15 would be frustrating. But it's also a long straight section, so seeing pedestrians wouldn't be an issue

  25. #25
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The problem is 15mph is too fast when the MUP is crowded and too slow when its not. I feel some other options should be considered to encourage bicycle use yet keep the MUPs safe.

    Locally there was a case where a pregnant headphone wearing jogger did not hear a cyclists passing warning and plowed right into him and did herself some mischief. Of course the problem was presented as cyclists going too fast (even though in the case the speed was under 10mph) and of course headphones and suddenly changing directions is not a problem at all.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •