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Old 11-30-09, 06:52 PM   #26
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Don't know where DX-MAN is from, but here in Massachusetts it is the law that a cyclist has to sound an audible warning before passing a pedestrian. It's always nice if the pedestrian responds in some way to indicate that they heard you. Kind of closes the loop.

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But if they're blonde and hot and riding in a skirt ... they get a pass.


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Old 11-30-09, 06:56 PM   #27
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Don't know where DX-MAN is from, but here in Massachusetts it is the law that a cyclist has to sound an audible warning before passing a pedestrian. It's always nice if the pedestrian responds in some way to indicate that they heard you. Kind of closes the loop.

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Sure is, as they look over their left shoulder and unconsciously step left into your path.
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Old 11-30-09, 07:14 PM   #28
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This isn't a car forum, it's a bike forum. Why do some people get all defensive when someone points out bad cycling and shout 'but cars do xyz, and it's bad!'? I'm sure you can find a great car discussion on one of the many car forums that IB owns, but I'm hear to talk about bikes.

In case you haven't noticed, there are great differences between cars and bikes.


You missed all three of the points I made, all related to cycling BTW.

1) Cyclists with head phones or ear buds are not the only road users who probably can't hear what is going on. Not so much of a problem if the volume is set reasonably and the operator is paying attention.

2) The person on bicycle isn't paying attention to what they are doing, which is a bigger problem then the headphones/earbuds. This isn't a problem limited to cyclists either.

3) The proposed solution (licencing, testing, insurance) hasn't worked for other road users, to resolve this problem, so why will it work for cyclists.
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Old 11-30-09, 07:54 PM   #29
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My wife was T-boned by some idiot cyclist jamming out to music in his own little world. She screamed at him while slamming on her brakes, but of course he didn't hear her. As she was lying on the pavement with a cracked frame he took off his headphones, said 'what?' and rode away, leaving her on the ground.
I'm going to play devils advocate here!

So hold on, your wife was not hit buy this guy? Cause she has a cracked frame, if he did hit her his front tire would be a taco. She screamed at the same time she slammed on her brakes so she did not see him either until the last min. Of course he heard her....he took off his headphones on responded. Obviously he did not give a rats azz if she had injuries or not since he pedaled away. So who is to blame? She did not see him and he did not see her? If you cannot do an emergency stop with out cracking your frame....get a steel bike or learn to brake properly in that situation.

Alright you can blast away at me now!
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Old 11-30-09, 07:58 PM   #30
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Sometimes it's better to accelerate to avoid the T-Bone.

Helps you win Figure-8 races too!
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Old 11-30-09, 09:59 PM   #31
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Sure is, as they look over their left shoulder and unconsciously step left into your path.
Yeah, sometimes.

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Old 11-30-09, 10:12 PM   #32
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Yeah, sometimes.

Speedo

I and my bike are so quiet they don't realize I am there until I am shoulder to shoulder with them....I don't do it to old people though because I don't want to give anyone a heart attack!
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Old 12-01-09, 01:55 AM   #33
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I'm going to play devils advocate here!

So hold on, your wife was not hit buy this guy? Cause she has a cracked frame, if he did hit her his front tire would be a taco. She screamed at the same time she slammed on her brakes so she did not see him either until the last min. Of course he heard her....he took off his headphones on responded. Obviously he did not give a rats azz if she had injuries or not since he pedaled away. So who is to blame? She did not see him and he did not see her? If you cannot do an emergency stop with out cracking your frame....get a steel bike or learn to brake properly in that situation.

Alright you can blast away at me now!
He came flying out of a blind ally into her. She clearly had the right of way. He was on some P.O.S. MTB and she was on a nice road bike; neither I nor my wife have any idea what happened to his front rim as it really wasn't on her mind as she was lying on the ground. His front rim wouldn't necessarily taco on impact with my wife. He was clearly at fault.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:23 AM   #34
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He came flying out of a blind ally into her. She clearly had the right of way. He was on some P.O.S. MTB and she was on a nice road bike; neither I nor my wife have any idea what happened to his front rim as it really wasn't on her mind as she was lying on the ground. His front rim wouldn't necessarily taco on impact with my wife. He was clearly at fault.
I am being myself now...no devils advocate. Your right depending on the strength and size of the tire and rim on the *** MTB..it might have had no effect on the front tire at all. I am sorry this happened and wish the best for you and the wife.
I just think headphones were not the problem here, it was not paying attention to the surroundings. I've seen cyclists do it without headphones, You have to see what is around in all angles..that is just a fact...Headphones are no different than loud stereos in cars IMO. Just saying.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:33 AM   #35
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I am being myself now...no devils advocate. Your right depending on the strength and size of the tire and rim on the *** MTB..it might have had no effect on the front tire at all. I am sorry this happened and wish the best for you and the wife.
I just think headphones were not the problem here, it was not paying attention to the surroundings. I've seen cyclists do it without headphones, You have to see what is around in all angles..that is just a fact...Headphones are no different than loud stereos in cars IMO. Just saying.
I think headphones did play a role due to the isolation to all outside noises that the provide. People tend to 'space out' more when all they can hear is music. While loud stereos might be a danger, they don't actively isolate someone like music directly pumped into one's ears does. FWIW, many places have laws against driving with headphones, as well as ones against stereos which are too loud.

In my wife's case I think the headphones contributed to his not paying attention due to the distraction and isolation that the music provided. That and the guy was simply a prick.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:44 AM   #36
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as well as ones against stereos which are too loud.
Understood I had a ticket for this in my younger days 100 bucks.

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In my wife's case I think the headphones contributed to his not paying attention due to the distraction and isolation that the music provided. That and the guy was simply a prick.
Yeah why did he just pedal away???? Shocking IMO.


sorry just sometimes i like to go against the grain...It is just me...I Hope your wife is doing fine...And she is cool with riding again after a crash. I like your temper...I wish more people would do what you do! I'll see you around!!! Peace!
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Old 12-01-09, 02:48 AM   #37
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I've seen iPod riders and even cellphone riders. Next they'll be texting.

Plug in, tune out, and wreak havoc.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:51 AM   #38
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I've seen iPod riders and even cellphone riders. Next they'll be texting.

Plug in, tune out, and wreak havoc.

Way less dangerous than cagers??? But still dangerous.
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Old 12-01-09, 03:02 AM   #39
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Way less dangerous than cagers??? But still dangerous.
It depends on if we rate 'dangerous' according to damage potential or according to the potential to cause an accident.
I'm not even sure if it's a case of apples to oranges.
I'd probably have a better chance of surviving an incident with an iPod rider though.
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Old 12-01-09, 03:11 AM   #40
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I'd probably have a better chance of surviving an incident with an iPod rider though.



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Old 12-01-09, 12:27 PM   #41
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My wife was T-boned by some idiot cyclist jamming out to music in his own little world. She screamed at him while slamming on her brakes, but of course he didn't hear her. As she was lying on the pavement with a cracked frame he took off his headphones, said 'what?' and rode away, leaving her on the ground.
The implication here is that the music player use was the cause of the accident -- though it probably wasn't. If you're screaming at another cyclist to stop, it's probably already too late. And it seems quite obvious (if he said "what?") that he DID hear her.

Odd that he hit her hard enough to break her frame -- but not hard enough to damage his own bike badly enough to have to even look for damage. Or that her frame (usually really hard to break) was broken, but she wasn't injured (if she was hurt, I'd expect that to more worthy of mentioning than her broken frame.)

It seems to me that the bigger issue is that this person caused an accident by not paying attention (this is the assumption made, though perhaps your wife caused the accident?) and then didn't even stop long enough to work out who was at fault before leaving. (Assuming that the story given is 100% accurate, of course.) Any alleged iPod use is tertiary to these two issues.

And as for this being a bike forum rather than a car forum, yes, but the situation of a car with the stereo turned up to 11 is exactly analogous -- except that he's surrounded by two tons of metal and possibly going 70 rather than 25. And most people who post here do either own cars, drive, or interact with cars (possibly with the stereo turned up to 11) on a regular basis as they ride, so comparisons with cars are certainly appropriate.

Edit: reading further into the thread, the accident was explained further -- it does sound like the accident was his fault. Still doesn't blame the iPod, however.

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Old 12-01-09, 12:28 PM   #42
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I've seen iPod riders and even cellphone riders. Next they'll be texting.

Plug in, tune out, and wreak havoc.
That seems to be there mantra.
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Old 12-01-09, 12:33 PM   #43
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The implication here is that the music player use was the cause of the accident -- though it probably wasn't. If you're screaming at another cyclist to stop, it's probably already too late.

Odd that he hit her hard enough to break her frame -- but not hard enough to damage his own bike badly enough to have to even look for damage. Or that her frame (usually really hard to break) was broken, but she wasn't injured (if she was hurt, I'd expect that to more worthy of mentioning than her broken frame.)

It seems to me that the bigger issue is that this person caused an accident by not paying attention (this is the assumption made, though perhaps your wife caused the accident?) and then didn't even stop long enough to work out who was at fault before leaving. (Assuming that the story given is 100% accurate, of course.) Any alleged iPod use is tertiary to these two issues.

And as for this being a bike forum rather than a car forum, yes, but the situation of a car with the stereo turned up to 11 is exactly analogous -- except that he's surrounded by two tons of metal and possibly going 70 rather than 25. And most people who post here do either own cars, drive, or interact with cars (possibly with the stereo turned up to 11) on a regular basis as they ride, so comparisons with cars are certainly appropriate.
Given that the bike that was ridden by the iPod wearer was described as a *** department store bike the wheels on those things are usually heavier and able to take more punishment then the wheels that one is likely to purchase at their LBS because the manufacturers of those *** department store bikes know that they are more likely to be abused.

So it doesn't surprise me that the higher quality bike sustained more damage then the *** department store bike did.
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Old 12-01-09, 12:53 PM   #44
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Given that the bike that was ridden by the iPod wearer was described as a *** department store bike the wheels on those things are usually heavier and able to take more punishment then the wheels that one is likely to purchase at their LBS because the manufacturers of those *** department store bikes know that they are more likely to be abused.

So it doesn't surprise me that the higher quality bike sustained more damage then the *** department store bike did.
Personally, it sounded to me that the `department store bike' business was more intended to paint him as somebody who wasn't a serious cyclist rather than anything about how sturdy it was. And besides, department store bikes are usually less sturdy than higher price bikes of the same type -- if it's sturdy, it's because it's a mountain bike, not because it's a department store bike.

But her frame broke. Frames are tough, even on light road bikes. To hit her hard enough to brake her frame (and not injure her) and not do any damage to his bike? That seems unlikely. It's not a matter of more damage -- it's a matter of catastrophic damage (broken frame = ruined bike) vs. no damage at all, not even a taco'd wheel, broken spoke or bent fork -- all of these would have likely had him stopping to figure out what happened to his bike.
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Old 12-01-09, 01:10 PM   #45
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A dept store bike hitting another bike on the side - I expect more damage done to the bike hit on the side. There's a lot more stress put on a frame if you hit it on the side than on the front. Also, the dept store bike is probably a lot heavier (and the rider probably is too). Most of the dept store bikes I've seen are pretty sturdy, if very heavy. But I'm generally looking at the stuff they carry at Target for adults, not the cheap stuff they sell for kids in Wal*Mart around Christmas. I've seen racks of bike-shaped-objects there for $25; those probably can barely hold the weight of the kid.
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Old 12-01-09, 01:30 PM   #46
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While loud stereos might be a danger, they don't actively isolate someone like music directly pumped into one's ears does.
I think I'd have to deafen myself with headphones to achieve the level of acoustic isolation I get in my car with the windows up and even a moderate level of radio volume. When I drive the company work truck, the engine noise is far louder than I'd ever have headphones at.
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Old 12-01-09, 01:36 PM   #47
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A dept store bike hitting another bike on the side - I expect more damage done to the bike hit on the side. There's a lot more stress put on a frame if you hit it on the side than on the front. Also, the dept store bike is probably a lot heavier (and the rider probably is too). Most of the dept store bikes I've seen are pretty sturdy, if very heavy. But I'm generally looking at the stuff they carry at Target for adults, not the cheap stuff they sell for kids in Wal*Mart around Christmas. I've seen racks of bike-shaped-objects there for $25; those probably can barely hold the weight of the kid.
Agreed the "bikes" that I've seen at Target, Sears, etc. look to be heavier and of a better "quality" then those that one finds in Wally World. And I would not want one of them running into me, nor their operator. Also it wouldn't surprise me that the iPod cost more then his P.O.S. department store bike did.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:33 PM   #48
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Edit: reading further into the thread, the accident was explained further -- it does sound like the accident was his fault. Still doesn't blame the iPod, however.
I think both the isolation of the headphones and distraction of the music contributed to the accident as they both kept his attention from what he should have been doing, which of course was watching where he was riding. Like it or not, the fact of the matter is that a lot of people space out while listening to music with headphones. I know this because I'm one of them. Try walking down a crowed city street or a busy train station with headphones to see what I mean. For some reason music that isn't played on headphones doesn't have the same effect on me. (To the guy who says that it doesn't happen to you; great but not everyone is like you, and take note that I qualified my statement. Thanks.)
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Old 12-01-09, 02:43 PM   #49
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To the guy who says that it doesn't happen to you; great but not everyone is like you, and take note that I qualified my statement. Thanks.
If I'm that guy, I didn't suggest I never lose some situational awareness while on the road. I do it far more often than I'd like. But it's a lot easier for me to miss things in a car than on a bike, headphones or not. Thanks.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:44 PM   #50
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I got run over by a deaf lady in an electric wheelchair. That was lame.

I'd get all alarmist about it, but I haven't the energy at the moment.
Yea those deaf ladies are pretty dangerous! I guess that is lame as well!
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