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  1. #1
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Safer Riding with Cycle Tracks

    Video from Mayor Sam Adam's Office, PDX Oregon, center of the USA cycling universe

    On the Right Track

    also at:
    http://www.sfbike.org/main/video-saf...-cycle-tracks/

    I like Catherine!


  2. #2
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    buffered bikelanes =bikelanes 2.0

    yep, looks good. how are they riding btw, Randya? I should come down with the bike for a couple of days.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #3
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    Video from Mayor Sam Adam's Office, PDX Oregon, center of the USA cycling universe

    On the Right Track

    also at:
    http://www.sfbike.org/main/video-saf...-cycle-tracks/

    I like Catherine!

    What about the perpetual blind spot created by the line of parked cars? How many drivers are going to see a bike on the cycle-track due to the parked cars? And how many are going to know what the green box is for?

    Also will cyclists be required by law to use the cycle-track or if their skill and comfort level is up to riding with traffic are they still free to do so?

    From the comments section I like the idea of reducing the overall speed of all motor vehicles and more fully integrating bicycles into the flow of traffic where they belong.

    I liked the buffered area between the bike lane and traffic better then the cycle-track idea.
    Last edited by Digital_Cowboy; 04-29-10 at 10:51 PM.
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    I'm with you, Cowboy. Those bike tracks are losers. There is no way a car-critter can see a cyclist when they make a right turn. I'm just imagining what happens when a cyclist is traveling at 25 mph and a slower moving car decides to turn across that blind zone; been there done that but I'm getting too old to land those flips with a one and a half twist anymore. I also hate the left-turn scenario. If you survive to the turn box. you are marked out as second-class, get to come to a complete stop for no good reason and then get to be passed by a bevy of fume-spewing cars accelerating from the intersection. This is a major fail.

    Their animation conveniently shows all of the parked cars fitting well into the spaces and the cars being driven staying outside of the buffer zone in the buffered bike lanes. Here in Eugene, anywhere there is a bike lane in a curve, the line is worn away by the car tires. Also, approximately 50% of the motor vehicles here are SUV's and pick-ups that do not fit into the spaces lined out on the roadside. Those small buffers simply would not work here without rigid enforcement, which we are not getting anytime soon. Parked cars to the right of a bike lane create a bike lane that is worse than useless, it is dangerous and potentially lethal. If they want to allow the car-bound to store their cars on the public right-of-way, there is a need to put a buffer that is at least as wide as the longest door between the bike lane and the parking spaces.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    I'm with you, Cowboy. Those bike tracks are losers. There is no way a car-critter can see a cyclist when they make a right turn. I'm just imagining what happens when a cyclist is traveling at 25 mph and a slower moving car decides to turn across that blind zone; been there done that but I'm getting too old to land those flips with a one and a half twist anymore. I also hate the left-turn scenario. If you survive to the turn box. you are marked out as second-class, get to come to a complete stop for no good reason and then get to be passed by a bevy of fume-spewing cars accelerating from the intersection. This is a major fail.
    Not to mention that for those of us who use clippless pedals we'd have to unclip one foot while turning from the cycle-track. Now granted we all know that one should first practice in a nice soft grassy area before taking to the road with our bike equipped with clipless pedals. But it is still possible that even after getting used to using them for one to take a spill. And for someone who is still pretty much learning how to use their clipless pedals that's a spill waiting to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Their animation conveniently shows all of the parked cars fitting well into the spaces and the cars being driven staying outside of the buffer zone in the buffered bike lanes. Here in Eugene, anywhere there is a bike lane in a curve, the line is worn away by the car tires. Also, approximately 50% of the motor vehicles here are SUV's and pick-ups that do not fit into the spaces lined out on the roadside. Those small buffers simply would not work here without rigid enforcement, which we are not getting anytime soon. Parked cars to the right of a bike lane create a bike lane that is worse than useless, it is dangerous and potentially lethal. If they want to allow the car-bound to store their cars on the public right-of-way, there is a need to put a buffer that is at least as wide as the longest door between the bike lane and the parking spaces.
    Not to mention all of those nice friendly and polite cagers. Granted we all know that most of them don't want to hit us, but sadly a large percentage of them don't want us on "their" roads either. Even though at least some of them recognize that we our choice of transportation is legit they'd still rather that we'd ride elsewhere. And as you said realistically when was the last time any of us saw someone in a car check traffic before opening their door to get out?

    When I pass any car that is parked on the side of the street I ALWAYS treat it as if there is someone inside of it who is going to open their door without any kind of warning and give it as wide of a berth as I can. Even if it's a car that I've seen in the same spot "forever" I still treat it as if there is someone in it. And instead of the city/county/state "giving" home owners, and renters free on street parking why not require that all homes, condos, apartment complexes provide ample parking for themselves, their tenants, and their guests? And if they want on street parking they have to fill out paperwork and be approved for it and pay a monthly or yearly fee?
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  6. #6
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    the naysaying is a bit premature dontchyathink?

    innovate on road planning for bicycle traffic is used in scads of other countries as part and parcel of the series of interventions in public space design that facilitate double digit rider share.


    Portland needs to begin looking at restricting on-street car parking and make those cycle tracks as large as Euro cycle tracks.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Not to mention that for those of us who use clippless pedals we'd have to unclip one foot while turning from the cycle-track. Now granted we all know that one should first practice in a nice soft grassy area before taking to the road with our bike equipped with clipless pedals. But it is still possible that even after getting used to using them for one to take a spill. And for someone who is still pretty much learning how to use their clipless pedals that's a spill waiting to happen.
    Dig deep for a negative! If people can't use their equipment in this particular context, they can't use it in any context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    innovate on road planning for bicycle traffic
    It will be interesting to see how well these work. I think there's some value in trying reasonable things.

  8. #8
    Senior Member mikeybikes's Avatar
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    I like the effort. I think its great to see innovative designs like this in the U.S.

    Now just to get Denver going on some better bike lane designs... some of the lanes we have... well, suck.
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  9. #9
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Horrible. That cyclist in the orange shirt sure was lucky the pedestrian was crossing the other way otherwise that right turning car would have most likely turned right in front of the hidden cyclist. That delay because of the ped allowed to cyclist to get into view while the motorist was stopped.

  10. #10
    I'm band already? lubes17319's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeshoup View Post
    I like the effort. I think its great to see innovative designs like this in the U.S.

    Now just to get Denver going on some better bike lane designs... some of the lanes we have... well, suck.
    .....or just disappear into thin air w/no signage.
    Who cares what your bike weighs, just ride it!

  11. #11
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    there are no right turns along this segment of cycle track, the entire cycle track is bordered on the right by the campus of Portland State University.

    (well, except for at the very beginning of the cycle track, where there is a 'normal' bike lane to the right of a RTOL at the entry point (the RTOL becomes the parking lane to the left of the cycle track at that point))

  12. #12
    Spinning @ 33 RPM Glynis27's Avatar
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    If those "Launch Pads" for left turning are as small as they look, I can see people having problems with them. Most people would need to slow down quite a bit and would hold up or cross paths with bikes coming from behind.

    It's great that they are looking for ideas, but I still can't see anything being better than just riding in the road.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glynis27 View Post
    If those "Launch Pads" for left turning are as small as they look, I can see people having problems with them. Most people would need to slow down quite a bit and would hold up or cross paths with bikes coming from behind.

    It's great that they are looking for ideas, but I still can't see anything being better than just riding in the road.
    the cycle track is not for racer boys or Lance wannabes

  14. #14
    Senior Member mikeybikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glynis27 View Post
    It's great that they are looking for ideas, but I still can't see anything being better than just riding in the road.
    You mean, apart from cycle tracks encouraging more bicyclists to ride, right?
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    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
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    "We think they'll help cyclists at every skill level feel safer on the road."

    Yep, that seems like what will happen according to the studies I've seen. Cyclists feel safer, but they really aren't. They are actually in more harm than before the tracks. But who cares about reality, it's all about what we feel, instead of teaching people safe riding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    there are no right turns along this segment of cycle track, the entire cycle track is bordered on the right by the campus of Portland State University.
    This is about the only kind of situation I can think of where a "cycle track" would be my idea of a best option. no right turns and no close by alternate thruway that you could designate as a "bike boulevard" uninviting to motor traffic, due to the university campus. I don't think this type of infrastructure would be appropriate for a roadway with real intersections though.

    EDIT: I also wanted to mention that the "CG" portion of the video showed the cycletrack being used on a street with cross traffic. thats what the little green boxes were for. Its all well and fine that this particular cycletrack doesn't actually need this, but the idea was put forward in the video that "cars allready have to look out for pedestrians when making right turns". this does not guarantee the same level of safety for cyclists. you don't have to be some kind of "spandex racerboy" to travel at 20kph or so. Cars are not used to checking for that sort of higer speed traffic on their right side when making a right turn, let alone with that traffic lane on the other side of a line of parked cars. Maybe in practice this isn't as big an issue as some of us are imagining it to be, but still. It's an issue.
    Last edited by kludgefudge; 04-30-10 at 07:31 PM.
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    Senior Member mikeybikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
    "We think they'll help cyclists at every skill level feel safer on the road."

    Yep, that seems like what will happen according to the studies I've seen. Cyclists feel safer, but they really aren't. They are actually in more harm than before the tracks. But who cares about reality, it's all about what we feel, instead of teaching people safe riding.
    Care to share with us one of these studies?
    Last edited by mikeybikes; 04-30-10 at 07:49 PM.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kludgefudge View Post
    ...no close by alternate thruway that you could designate as a "bike boulevard" uninviting to motor traffic, due to the university campus.
    Actually, the 'South Park Blocks' are only one block west of Broadway. As is - or even better, if cars were removed from the Park Blocks - there would be an ideal bike boulevard just one block west. The Park blocks continue right up through campus.

    However, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be facilities on Broadway, too. Cycling will only be mainstream when every public street is safe to cycle on.

    http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
    Last edited by randya; 04-30-10 at 10:08 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeshoup View Post
    Care to share with us one of these studies?
    Sure, the Copenhagen Study. That study shows that accidents between cars and bikes are reduced between intersections, where there was already a low amount of accidents. But accidents at intersections increased a lot. But the bicyclists believe they are safer because of the tracks.

    There is a Swedish report that shows that raising and coloring intersections had no long term effect on accident rates, they remained higher than riding on the roads.
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  20. #20
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
    Sure, the Copenhagen Study. That study shows that accidents between cars and bikes are reduced between intersections, where there was already a low amount of accidents. But accidents at intersections increased a lot. But the bicyclists believe they are safer because of the tracks.

    There is a Swedish report that shows that raising and coloring intersections had no long term effect on accident rates, they remained higher than riding on the roads.
    Now the interesting thing about that report is this:

    The increase in injuries to women was 18%, whereas there was only a small rise in injuries to men, just 1%. The increase in injuries is especially large among females under 20 years of age on foot and bicycle, as well as female pedestrians over the age of 64. On the other hand there was a considerable fall in injuries among older cyclists and children in cars of both sex.
    Later in the report this statement is also made:

    The construction of cycle tracks has resulted in a an 18-20% increase in cycle/moped traffic and a decrease of 9-10% in car traffic on those roads where cycle tracks have been constructed.
    Nowhere in the report does it compare the RATES of increased cycle/moped use to the increase of collisions. Is there any correlation between more users and more injuries?

    And one has to ask, why are men less effected by these cycle track collisions than women?

  21. #21
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Gene, that Copenhagen study is a thinly veiled pro-parking study that actually shows a reduction in the indexed accident rate in copenhagen and suggests greater signalization at the intersections would likely increase cyclist safety.

    Wait a sec, sweet lou -

    you mean the swedish study that concluded

    Quote Originally Posted by koenig
    The final conclusion is that the total safety seems to be unchanged
    at both construction types. However, the components of safety differ as there seem to exist
    more self-confident cyclists and more defensive drivers at the reconstructed junctions.
    safety unchanged, more defensive motorists and more confident cyclists engaging in public right of way bicycling? is that what you were talking about?

    Increasing ridershare while keeping accident rates flat ? A win-win. that study does suggest improved signalization of the intersections could lead to even greater intersection safety but the safety dynamic has changed for the better, as traffic speeds were reduced thru the intersections and greater yielding behaviors towards bicyclists.]

    both studies suggest improving signage and intersection signalization has the potential to increase intersection safety for cyclists.

    i suspect this type of analysis will lead to better design of americanized cycletracks. i like the bikelanes 2.0 myself but every indication is that separated lanes on major routes and traffic calmed streets otherwise are what works to truly increase active transportation and public mobility by bicycle.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-01-10 at 08:17 AM.
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  22. #22
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    We have a subforum for VC, why not one for the bike lane nannies?

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 05-01-10 at 11:50 AM.

  23. #23
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    maybe they need a subforum for pissants too!

    What's YOUR vision of public right of ways that can support double digit ridershares, Cudak?

    what's your vision of building road networks that could support much higher numbers of riders, say seniors on trikes heading off to the neighborhood early bird special - the status quo in florida is good enough ?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-01-10 at 09:10 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #24
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    We have a subforum for VC, why not one for the lane nannies?

    -Kurt
    The reality of US roads is summed here:
    Although many U.S. roads are safe and comfortable to bicycle on as they are, others are unpleasant even for the most experienced cyclists. This is particularly true for urban arterials, which can be both the least pleasant for riding and also the most necessary for transportation purposes. As discussed above, widening the outside lane of such roads to create enough room for side-by-side lane sharing between bicyclists and motorists will make such roads much more hospitable for cyclists. Adding a bicycle lane stripe could worsen the situation if it increases the number of improper merges at intersections. A bike stencil on a wide outside lane could provide the encouragement and legitimacy sought by bike lane advocates without the complications of bike lanes (Zehnpfennig et al. 1993).
    http://bicycledriving.org/about/the-...cycle-planning

  25. #25
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i don't think simply 'widening the arterials' is going to cut it, gene.

    this is a promotion of buffered bikelanes and cycletracks at appropriate locations in Portland, and design features being incorporated into streetscape design to facilitate larger segments of the population feeling empowered and facilitated to bicycle for transportation - versus autocentric barriers to roadway bicycling.

    WOLs are significantly different from cycletracks and both may well have their place in well thought out roadway infrastructure that facilitates bicycling in communities.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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