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Old 04-30-10, 11:34 AM   #1
mikeybikes
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Running the red during a Barnes Dance

Do you run a red during a Barnes Dance aka Pedestrian Scramble?

A good portion of the lights in Downtown Denver have a pedestrian crossing phase... I admit, I run 'em, while yielding to the peds.
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Old 05-01-10, 02:43 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by mikeshoup View Post
Do you run a red during a Barnes Dance aka Pedestrian Scramble?

A good portion of the lights in Downtown Denver have a pedestrian crossing phase... I admit, I run 'em, while yielding to the peds.
That's what the vast majority of bicyclists do in Denver. I've argued that your behavior should be formally legalized, in order to give the careful and considerate riders a little more freedom, and make it easier to crack down on those who don't yield to peds or who otherwise charge into intersections unsafely.
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Old 05-01-10, 02:52 AM   #3
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I had no idea that had a name.
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Old 05-01-10, 05:36 AM   #4
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Around here we can cross when the whole crossing is pedestrian only as long as we dismount. I don't dismount but I do slow down to where I'm moving about as fast as the peds. It amazes me how little they pay attention though. I've nearly been knocked off my bikes by peds running across such intersections looking the other way! This doesn't piss me off too much but it just strikes me as incredibly stupid.
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Old 05-01-10, 07:28 AM   #5
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Interesting comments on Wiki concerning this sort of signal phasing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
The pedestrian scramble has advantages and disadvantages. It requires vehicular traffic in all directions to stop, losing time for motorists and reducing an intersection's vehicular capacity, although it may be mitigated by time gained removing pedestrian signals across individual streets.
Shows a clear bias for vehicular traffic. Yet in the video below, it appears as though there are as many people using the intersection in a pedestrian phase as there are people driving through in a vehicle phase... How is it that people in vehicles have some sort of priority over people walking?
http://vimeo.com/1626058?pg=embed&sec=1626058
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Old 05-01-10, 08:18 AM   #6
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Around here we can cross when the whole crossing is pedestrian only as long as we dismount. I don't dismount but I do slow down to where I'm moving about as fast as the peds. It amazes me how little they pay attention though. I've nearly been knocked off my bikes by peds running across such intersections looking the other way! This doesn't piss me off too much but it just strikes me as incredibly stupid.
Is it the not dismounting you find stupid or the pedestrians who act as if there were no vehicular traffic to worry about?
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Old 05-01-10, 09:18 AM   #7
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I'll follow pedestrians signals. If they're valid for trails then they are valid on streets as well.
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Old 05-01-10, 08:06 PM   #8
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Around here we can cross when the whole crossing is pedestrian only as long as we dismount. I don't dismount but I do slow down to where I'm moving about as fast as the peds. It amazes me how little they pay attention though. I've nearly been knocked off my bikes by peds running across such intersections looking the other way! This doesn't piss me off too much but it just strikes me as incredibly stupid.
If they do knock you off your bike, who gets the ticket? Who's legally responsible for injuries? I'm guessing it's you.
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Old 05-02-10, 11:08 AM   #9
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Interesting comments on Wiki concerning this sort of signal phasing.



Shows a clear bias for vehicular traffic. Yet in the video below, it appears as though there are as many people using the intersection in a pedestrian phase as there are people driving through in a vehicle phase... How is it that people in vehicles have some sort of priority over people walking?
http://vimeo.com/1626058?pg=embed&sec=1626058
In the words of wikipedia itself, be bold. Rewrite it if you have the time and inclination.
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Old 05-02-10, 11:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Interesting comments on Wiki concerning this sort of signal phasing.



Shows a clear bias for vehicular traffic. Yet in the video below, it appears as though there are as many people using the intersection in a pedestrian phase as there are people driving through in a vehicle phase... How is it that people in vehicles have some sort of priority over people walking?
http://vimeo.com/1626058?pg=embed&sec=1626058
That would depend on the intersection and the traffic flow. Move that to an intersection out of a downtown area and see what happens. I think that having all the pedestrians go at the same time would get more vehicles through the intersection for each green light, if the total light sequence was the same as before.
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Old 05-02-10, 06:19 PM   #11
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That would depend on the intersection and the traffic flow. Move that to an intersection out of a downtown area and see what happens. I think that having all the pedestrians go at the same time would get more vehicles through the intersection for each green light, if the total light sequence was the same as before.
Not to mention far safer for the pedestrians who don't have to worry about an errant motorist making a right on red without checking for peds.
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Old 05-02-10, 07:00 PM   #12
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Not to mention far safer for the pedestrians who don't have to worry about an errant motorist making a right on red without checking for peds.
On many downtown Denver intersections you can still turn on red during the ped crossing phase... The Barnes Dance does not help in that regard. I would love to see a no turn on red on all the streets downtown.
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Old 05-02-10, 07:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by mikeshoup View Post
On many downtown Denver intersections you can still turn on red during the ped crossing phase... The Barnes Dance does not help in that regard. I would love to see a no turn on red on all the streets downtown.
almost seems to make the pedestrian cycle worthless. All of our downtown intersections are no turn on red, which is good because motorists take that as a green light to ignore the signal. We don't have pedestrian scrambles, but they have changed the pedestrian cycles to start before the light changes for the cars. I think it may improve throughput since the pedestrians can go without worrying about aggressive drivers. Before this, the pedestrians would hesitate to move into the intersection because a majority of motorists would ignore them.
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Old 05-03-10, 07:35 AM   #14
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On many downtown Denver intersections you can still turn on red during the ped crossing phase... The Barnes Dance does not help in that regard. I would love to see a no turn on red on all the streets downtown.
That just doesn't make sense. Yet another example of bias against pedestrians...

This should be a no right turn situation!
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Old 05-03-10, 09:51 AM   #15
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Due to the mix of laws in Denver and Colorado you can legally ride your bike through an intersection during the all-red pedestrian only phase... so long as you're in the crosswalk.

It's illegal to ride on the sidewalks in Denver, but it's NOT illegal to ride in the crosswalks... you're not even required to dismount, as that law was repealed 5 years ago. (Used to be that sidewalks were illegal under city law and you were required to dismount to enter a crosswalk under state law... state law was repealed and city law was never updated to add anything specific for crosswalks) State law states that bicycles on the sidewalk and crosswalks are considered pedestrians... required to follow pedestrian rules and regulations.
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