Jailed for riding in accordance with the law
08-23-10, 08:34 AM
#251
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 98
Bikes: 2008 Gary Fisher Marlin Disc with slicks until I get a road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
most of you forget, Mr. Chipseal WAS NOT CONVICTED OF FAILING TO OPERATE FRAP in a substandard width lane, he was convicted of operating in the lane in such a manner as to rise to to reckless disregard for others' road safety.
Additionally, cyclists are not SOLEY GOVERNED by the laws dictating lane positioning, the cyclist has a panoply of rights AND DUTIES attendant in public roadway use.
a vehicle operator can be operating entirely within the lane lines ostensibly legally and still be doing so in a reckless manner. His right to take the entire lane of this highway is moot when his lane positioning strategy rose to the level of disregard for the safety of others.
Additionally, cyclists are not SOLEY GOVERNED by the laws dictating lane positioning, the cyclist has a panoply of rights AND DUTIES attendant in public roadway use.
a vehicle operator can be operating entirely within the lane lines ostensibly legally and still be doing so in a reckless manner. His right to take the entire lane of this highway is moot when his lane positioning strategy rose to the level of disregard for the safety of others.
08-23-10, 08:56 AM
#252
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
i disagree with your assessment. this was not a ruling on FRAP law in Texas, that was not what chipseal is guilty of.
There is no way for a car and a bike to share a lane on a 65mph highway?
Lane sharing between bicyclists and motor vehicles on high speed roadways often, most frequently occurs as lane sharing and a partial lane change when the overtaking vehicle partially shares the lane with the bicyclist.
those of us that have ridden highway speed roads for any distance can attest to this phenomenon, both on single lane or multiple lane roadways.
Chipseal was operating obstreperously and with premeditated, reckless disregard for other road users he was sharing the road with.
There is no way for a car and a bike to share a lane on a 65mph highway?
Lane sharing between bicyclists and motor vehicles on high speed roadways often, most frequently occurs as lane sharing and a partial lane change when the overtaking vehicle partially shares the lane with the bicyclist.
those of us that have ridden highway speed roads for any distance can attest to this phenomenon, both on single lane or multiple lane roadways.
Chipseal was operating obstreperously and with premeditated, reckless disregard for other road users he was sharing the road with.
Last edited by Bekologist; 08-23-10 at 09:02 AM.
08-23-10, 09:03 AM
#253
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,445
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4234 Post(s)
Liked 2,949 Times
in
1,808 Posts
It reminds me of a ticket I got many years ago for violation of the basic speed law (driving faster than I could control my vehicle or was considered safe for the conditions). The speed at which I was driving was under the legal limits, but was too fast to control a vehicle under the conditions at the time. Not really the same, but just another example of adhering to the letter of one law (but violating the spirit of another).
08-23-10, 09:16 AM
#254
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697
Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
A "partial lane change" is failing to drive entirely within a single lane, and therefore illegal in Texas.
08-23-10, 09:18 AM
#255
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
it's illegal to partially change lanes when passing in Texas?
show us that statute! you've only linked to a partial blurb about practicable lane use, not that partially changing lanes is illegal when passing!
show us that statute! you've only linked to a partial blurb about practicable lane use, not that partially changing lanes is illegal when passing!
08-23-10, 09:18 AM
#256
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 98
Bikes: 2008 Gary Fisher Marlin Disc with slicks until I get a road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What is the point in a partial lane change? If the driver must move into the passing lane, they might as well move all the way into it. If you leave the motorist enough room that to safely pass they would need to partially change lanes, but they could just squeeze by without partially changing lanes, do you think they're going to slow down and wait to make that partial lane change when the passing lane is full? Hell no, they're going to buzz the bike rider and save their precious few seconds. If the lane can't be shared it should be claimed unless you like hearing the woosh of a rear view mirror zooming by your ear.
08-23-10, 09:19 AM
#257
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edgewater, CO
Posts: 3,213
Bikes: Tons
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Can anyone cite the actual law chipseal was convicted of? I'd like to hold off my judgment until I've actually read the law... but I can't seem to find a reference to it.
08-23-10, 09:21 AM
#258
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Originally Posted by thehumancar
'm curious if there are other examples of legal but reckless?
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this idea and am having difficulty.
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this idea and am having difficulty.
I am sure there are many cases where a motorist was operating on the road in the lanes of traffic and still operating in a reckless manner towards others.
08-23-10, 09:25 AM
#259
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 98
Bikes: 2008 Gary Fisher Marlin Disc with slicks until I get a road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sec. 545.060. DRIVING ON ROADWAY LANED FOR TRAFFIC. (a) An operator on a roadway divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic:
(1) shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane; and
(2) may not move from the lane unless that movement can be made safely.
08-23-10, 09:27 AM
#260
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
that statute doesn't invalidate changing lanes partially to pass, fellas.
language regarding passing is in other statutes in the texas traffic code.
language regarding passing is in other statutes in the texas traffic code.
08-23-10, 09:32 AM
#261
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times
in
942 Posts
https://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...45.htm#545.053
Sec. 545.053. PASSING TO THE LEFT; RETURN; BEING PASSED. (a) An operator passing another vehicle:
(1) shall pass to the left of the other vehicle at a safe distance; and
(2) may not move back to the right side of the roadway until safely clear of the passed vehicle.
(b) An operator being passed by another vehicle:
(1) shall, on audible signal, move or remain to the right in favor of the passing vehicle; and
(2) may not accelerate until completely passed by the passing vehicle.
(c) Subsection (b) does not apply when passing to the right is permitted.
(1) shall pass to the left of the other vehicle at a safe distance; and
(2) may not move back to the right side of the roadway until safely clear of the passed vehicle.
(b) An operator being passed by another vehicle:
(1) shall, on audible signal, move or remain to the right in favor of the passing vehicle; and
(2) may not accelerate until completely passed by the passing vehicle.
(c) Subsection (b) does not apply when passing to the right is permitted.
================
https://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...htm/TN.545.htm
Sec. 545.060. DRIVING ON ROADWAY LANED FOR TRAFFIC. (a) An operator on a roadway divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic:
(1) shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane; and
(2) may not move from the lane unless that movement can be made safely.
Sec. 545.060. DRIVING ON ROADWAY LANED FOR TRAFFIC. (a) An operator on a roadway divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic:
(1) shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane; and
(2) may not move from the lane unless that movement can be made safely.
What is the point in a partial lane change? If the driver must move into the passing lane, they might as well move all the way into it. If you leave the motorist enough room that to safely pass they would need to partially change lanes, but they could just squeeze by without partially changing lanes, do you think they're going to slow down and wait to make that partial lane change when the passing lane is full? Hell no, they're going to buzz the bike rider and save their precious few seconds. If the lane can't be shared it should be claimed unless you like hearing the woosh of a rear view mirror zooming by your ear.
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-23-10 at 09:44 AM.
08-23-10, 09:41 AM
#262
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times
in
942 Posts
Originally Posted by The Human Car
I'm curious if there are other examples of legal but reckless?
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this idea and am having difficulty.
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this idea and am having difficulty.
Those laws would be unnecessary if there were always some other laws that could be used.
08-23-10, 09:42 AM
#263
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 98
Bikes: 2008 Gary Fisher Marlin Disc with slicks until I get a road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If it does not apply while passing why does it not have an exemption for passing like:
Sec. 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY. (a) An operator on a roadway of sufficient width shall drive on the right half of the roadway, unless:
(1) the operator is passing another vehicle;
There are no exemptions listed for "shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane."
Sec. 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY. (a) An operator on a roadway of sufficient width shall drive on the right half of the roadway, unless:
(1) the operator is passing another vehicle;
There are no exemptions listed for "shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane."
08-23-10, 09:46 AM
#264
Needing more power Scotty
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Northern New England (USA)
Posts: 588
Bikes: 2006 Trek T-80 (commuter) 1982 Bianchi SS (classic 12 speed)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
08-23-10, 09:46 AM
#265
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times
in
942 Posts
https://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...45.htm#545.401
Sec. 545.401. RECKLESS DRIVING; OFFENSE. (a) A person commits an offense if the person drives a vehicle in wilful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property.
(b) An offense under this section is a misdemeanor punishable by:
(1) a fine not to exceed $200;
(2) confinement in county jail for not more than 30 days; or
(3) both the fine and the confinement.
(c) Notwithstanding Section 542.001, this section applies to:
(1) a private access way or parking area provided for a client or patron by a business, other than a private residential property or the property of a garage or parking lot for which a charge is made for the storing or parking of motor vehicles; and
(2) a highway or other public place.
(d) Notwithstanding Section 542.004, this section applies to a person, a team, or motor vehicles and other equipment engaged in work on a highway surface.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
(b) An offense under this section is a misdemeanor punishable by:
(1) a fine not to exceed $200;
(2) confinement in county jail for not more than 30 days; or
(3) both the fine and the confinement.
(c) Notwithstanding Section 542.001, this section applies to:
(1) a private access way or parking area provided for a client or patron by a business, other than a private residential property or the property of a garage or parking lot for which a charge is made for the storing or parking of motor vehicles; and
(2) a highway or other public place.
(d) Notwithstanding Section 542.004, this section applies to a person, a team, or motor vehicles and other equipment engaged in work on a highway surface.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
08-23-10, 09:47 AM
#266
-=Barry=-
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
Posts: 4,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I always thought recklessness was a matter of degree of doing something illegal, that is, speeding is one thing but doing 120mph through a school zone is quite another.
Wikipedia was not much help but though the related article "Willful blindness" had this
This seems to be the closest to what is going on here [in that the activity in general is legal] but still requires something else to be illegal.
Any thoughts?
Wikipedia was not much help but though the related article "Willful blindness" had this
For example, in a number of cases, persons transporting packages [a legal activity] containing illegal drugs have asserted that they never asked what the contents of the packages were, and therefore lacked the requisite intent to break the law. Such defenses have not succeeded, as courts have been quick to determine that the defendant should have known what was in the package, and exercised criminal recklessness by failing to find out.
Any thoughts?
08-23-10, 09:50 AM
#267
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
In Texas, Barry, its apparantly operating in wanton disregard for the safety of others, which was argued successfully that was what Chipseal was doing. the activity could still be ostensibly legal, like owning and transporting a chainsaw.
How about if he was carrying that chainsaw while operating a slow moving, narrow vehicle uncompromisingly far to the left of a 65mph highway lane on a US highway in Texas?
How about if he was carrying that chainsaw while operating a slow moving, narrow vehicle uncompromisingly far to the left of a 65mph highway lane on a US highway in Texas?
08-23-10, 09:54 AM
#268
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times
in
942 Posts
If it does not apply while passing why does it not have an exemption for passing like:
Sec. 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY. (a) An operator on a roadway of sufficient width shall drive on the right half of the roadway, unless:
(1) the operator is passing another vehicle;
There are no exemptions listed for "shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane."
Sec. 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY. (a) An operator on a roadway of sufficient width shall drive on the right half of the roadway, unless:
(1) the operator is passing another vehicle;
There are no exemptions listed for "shall drive as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane."
Anyway, this is a standard law too (I'm familiar with it). This law exists primarily to describe how to drive on roads without painted lanes at all (th! It allows for moving to the left for passing but does not provide any details about how to pass legally (that detail is in the passing laws).
The passing law clearly does not require moving completely into the other lane (or left half of the roadway). Heck, this law doesn't require that either!
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-23-10 at 09:59 AM.
08-23-10, 09:54 AM
#269
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 4,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
This judge is saying the cyclist is being reckless, and the machine he's using to do it consists of:
* Other road users ignorance
* Other road users velocity and mass
That really bothers me. Apparently in this judges mind we really have shifted to a system where each vehicle is responsible for the effect it has on other vehicles. Could you be blamed for being rear ended because a stop is unexpected at the place you did it?
At some level I can see where he's coming from. Slamming your brakes on a freeway is very dangerous. Doing it for no reason is, well, a dick move. That may be the light in which the judge sees this case.
08-23-10, 09:57 AM
#270
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 4,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
In Texas, Barry, its apparantly operating in wanton disregard for the safety of others, which was argued successfully that was what Chipseal was doing. the activity could still be ostensibly legal, like owning and transporting a chainsaw.
How about if he was carrying that chainsaw while operating a slow moving, narrow vehicle uncompromisingly far to the left of a 65mph highway lane on a US highway in Texas?
How about if he was carrying that chainsaw while operating a slow moving, narrow vehicle uncompromisingly far to the left of a 65mph highway lane on a US highway in Texas?
Now, that analogy is totally ridiculous. You might look at it more like playing in a construction zone. The construction workers may injure each other to avoid hurting you. Construction is dangerous, but not abnormally so and it's allowed. The big difference would be that you're not supposed to enter the construction zone at all.
08-23-10, 10:01 AM
#271
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times
in
942 Posts
That is something completely different. Anyway, the "willful blindness" applies to someone observing/knowing-about a crime committed by someone else.
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-23-10 at 10:06 AM.
08-23-10, 10:03 AM
#272
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
road rage and agressive driving in congested traffic conditions would likely fall under reckless driving statutes in many states, despite the operator following the traffic laws about lane use, following the speed limit, etc.
Chipseals' underlying rage, his admitted 'social anarchist' style of biking, his obstreperousness is plastered all over his blog, his proud boasts of obstructionism committed to the blogosphere.
the fella is a reckless bicyclist.
Chipseals' underlying rage, his admitted 'social anarchist' style of biking, his obstreperousness is plastered all over his blog, his proud boasts of obstructionism committed to the blogosphere.
the fella is a reckless bicyclist.
Last edited by Bekologist; 08-23-10 at 10:06 AM.
08-23-10, 10:12 AM
#273
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times
in
942 Posts
Originally Posted by thehumancar
'm curious if there are other examples of legal but reckless?
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this idea and am having difficulty.
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this idea and am having difficulty.
Both of these are ostensibly "legal" acts which can cause the following vehicle to perform an illegal act (not stopping in time). (And they don't involve any chainsaws!)
08-23-10, 10:15 AM
#274
Senior Member
Cycling on a narrow-lane highway is only as "reckless" as walking through a sketchy neighborhood while wearing a short skirt, the wrong colors, or the wrong skin. The danger comes from others who are inclined to act unlawfully, but due to their shared prejudice, the police in this case focused on trying to deter the individual from exercising their liberty rather than protect it as the law requires.
This is much different from conditionally restricting other liberties, such as yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. People have proven that they can deal with bicyclists on roadways; it's the unlawful outlier who chooses not to. And cycling is useful; it's not done for "no reason" as some prejudiced individuals might assume.
This is much different from conditionally restricting other liberties, such as yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. People have proven that they can deal with bicyclists on roadways; it's the unlawful outlier who chooses not to. And cycling is useful; it's not done for "no reason" as some prejudiced individuals might assume.
08-23-10, 10:16 AM
#275
Needing more power Scotty
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Northern New England (USA)
Posts: 588
Bikes: 2006 Trek T-80 (commuter) 1982 Bianchi SS (classic 12 speed)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
road rage and agressive driving in congested traffic conditions would likely fall under reckless driving statutes in many states, despite the operator following the traffic laws about lane use, following the speed limit, etc.
Chipseals' underlying rage, his admitted 'social anarchist' style of biking, his obstreperousness is plastered all over his blog, his proud boasts of obstructionism committed to the blogosphere.
the fella is a reckless bicyclist.
Chipseals' underlying rage, his admitted 'social anarchist' style of biking, his obstreperousness is plastered all over his blog, his proud boasts of obstructionism committed to the blogosphere.
the fella is a reckless bicyclist.