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Thread: fault?

  1. #1
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    fault?

    So, the other morning it's pouring. I'm on my commute and it's dark too. Although I don't run into any problems, I swear, most drivers do not adjust their driving for conditions in fact, I think many drivers drive worse. I think they speed up because they want to get their drive over faster.

    Anyway, later that day someone comes up to me and says he had a hard time seeing me when they passed me on his way to work.

    "If it wasn't for your light, I wouldn't have seen you"

    "But you saw my light through, right?"

    "Yeah, but you should be careful. You're right in the middle of the road."

    So here's the deal. Conditions are worse than usual and I'm seen, but not as well as some would like.

    Not only do I have lights, but I wear a high-vis yellow rain coat with several reflective strips on various areas of it. My rain pants are yellow and my booties have reflective strips up the back of them.

    I suppose I always could add even more reflective strips and 16 more lights, but at what point is it the fault of the cyclist that a driver is having a hard time noticing a lit up, brightly dressed cyclist riding under street lights in front of a vehicle?

    And what is the greater obligation? To be noticed, or to notice?
    Last edited by closetbiker; 11-03-10 at 07:45 AM.
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    I think many drivers drive worse. I think they speed up because they want to get their drive over faster.
    QFT

    But to anwser your question from what I know it is dependent upon where you are and local laws. Where I live between Dusk and down or during overcast days both pedals must have reflectors and/or reflective ankle bands, and you must have a rear tail light and front headlight. If you fail to do this nd you are hit during those times you are at fault (Or atleast the car is not at fault).

    In your case it sounds like you have exceeded that law and are fully within your rights but I don't know your area. Regardless it sounds like you were entirely in the right. I think we should all get floodlights and hi-beams to make sure drivers can never say "I didn't see you!"

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    In my opinion accidents rarely (though it does happen) happen unless both parties have committed some act of negligence. This is why they are relatively rare.

    I believe a person's first obligation is self-preservation, therefore I would place the greater personal burden on being noticed. Of course, that doesn't in anyway diminish the other persons obligation to be as observant as practicable.

    It sounds like your coworker was simply saying they didn't see you as soon as they would have liked; ie, not as much reaction time as they would like. The right to ride in the middle of the lane doesn't mean the other person isn't going to be surprised to see you there. The simple fact is that cyclists are relatively rare in general and really rare in such poor weather conditions. Surprise at encountering a cyclist in such conditions is a perfectly normal response.

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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    I believe a drivers sight is impaired in the rain. Couple that with a lack of compensation for that impairment and risks increase.

    This was one of the first heavy rain Mondays of the season. It followed a heavy rain week-end that featured many motorist/pedestrian collisions.
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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Check your batteries, maybe your bulbs are burning dimly.

    Rider safety makes being seen the greater obligation.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Providing you have met the legal obligation of being seen, the obligation is way higher for others to pay attention. If others were not seeing you with enough reaction time due to weather, it is their obligation to adjust their speed and stop driving too fast for conditions (which is considered speeding here, regardless of the speed limit. Basic Speed Law).

    Now, personally, it's a good idea to go above and beyond your legal obligation for self-preservation (which it sounds you've more than surpassed). At that point, you've met your obligations, and others need to meet theirs as well.
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    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    This example points out again why rear lights are often so much better than the minimalist reflectors that come with most bikes and even larger reflectors. In the dark in the rain, a blinky is much more likely to get noticed.

    I am especially frustrated with the failure rate of several different rear lamps I've owned. Sometimes an intermittent connection in a rechargeable battery or cable (NiteRider) turns off my rear lamp during a ride. Sometimes rain enters the blinky housing and shorts it out. Sometimes a pothole bounce causes the cover to pop off and spill the batteries, or even snaps the plastic mount clean off.

    I am increasingly inclined to go with two rear lamps, rather than just one, especially when in a dark rain. That is in addition to large rear reflectors, my current failsafe.

    But in answer to the OP's question, whenever I find myself surprised by a low-visibility road user such as a pedestrian in the dark, I am reminded that I must take care to drive slowly enough to respond to such users and to pay especially close attention in low visibility conditions. Sure, I wish other users would maximize their visibility, but I do not imagine myself striking them when they are traveling lawfully; rather, I am concerned about what those "other drivers" might fail to do.

    A driver on a four lane road at sunrise once pulled up to me at a signal and told me that I was hard to see, and that I needed to be careful. I thanked her for her concern but pointed out that she did see me and that it was her responsibility to drive within her sight distance and pay attention. I do try to avoid riding directly into a harsh sunrise or sunset, but I am still surprised at the number of drivers who do not slow down when visibility is compromised.

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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Check your batteries, maybe your bulbs are burning dimly.

    Rider safety makes being seen the greater obligation.
    Yup. They're good. The light is just as bright when I first bought it. Back when everyone was amazed at how visible these new blinkies are.

    Funny how now, I hear people say they run more than one to be seen better.
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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudo bike View Post
    Providing you have met the legal obligation of being seen, the obligation is way higher for others to pay attention. If others were not seeing you with enough reaction time due to weather, it is their obligation to adjust their speed and stop driving too fast for conditions (which is considered speeding here, regardless of the speed limit. Basic Speed Law).

    Now, personally, it's a good idea to go above and beyond your legal obligation for self-preservation (which it sounds you've more than surpassed). At that point, you've met your obligations, and others need to meet theirs as well.
    This is how I see it. I've done all that is reasonably possible and I'm hearing someone say because they didn't notice something in compromised conditions, somehow I should do something about it.

    Maybe I should track the guy down and ask if he thought if he should slow down and watch a little more carefully in conditions such as we had the other morning
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  10. #10
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    I wonder if their windshield is clean (inside and out) and more importantly wiper blades not deteriorated.

    What rear lights do you use?

    All you need is a red reflector

    Sometimes people just want to be helpful and do care, even if it may come across 'the wrong way'

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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri View Post
    ...whenever I find myself surprised by a low-visibility road user such as a pedestrian in the dark, I am reminded that I must take care to drive slowly enough to respond to such users and to pay especially close attention in low visibility conditions. Sure, I wish other users would maximize their visibility, but I do not imagine myself striking them when they are traveling lawfully; rather, I am concerned about what those "other drivers" might fail to do.
    this speaks to the spike in motorist/pedestrian collisions on dark, rainy, winter nights. Too many people don't take the extra precaution needed so we end up with increased collisions

    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri View Post
    A driver on a four lane road at sunrise once pulled up to me at a signal and told me that I was hard to see, and that I needed to be careful. I thanked her for her concern but pointed out that she did see me and that it was her responsibility to drive within her sight distance and pay attention. I do try to avoid riding directly into a harsh sunrise or sunset, but I am still surprised at the number of drivers who do not slow down when visibility is compromised.
    During the summer when my wife and I are driving along, it's common to see ninja cyclists after sunset. My wife often gets upset when we come up on them from behind. She says they're invisible BUT some (most, actually) do have those mandated reflectors built into the pedals and they ARE visible.

    Clearly, having lights would be better, but I do see them if they have these pedals. If they don't have them, it'd be much worse.
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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    I wonder if their windshield is clean (inside and out) and more importantly wiper blades not deteriorated.

    What rear lights do you use?

    All you need is a red reflector

    Sometimes people just want to be helpful and do care, even if it may come across 'the wrong way'
    I think there is a genuine concern there, but they just can't see that maybe their vision is compromised and to suggest so might be offensive.

    I use one of those old Vista Lites (I've had it forever).
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    I have a related issue with the last 1/2 mile or so of my commute. In the morning, I ride directly into the sun, even up a little hill, and it is very hard to see. I fully expect someone to pull up next to me at a light one of these days, set down their mocha and their cell phone, and tell me they can't see me.

    Preparing for it now will help me from going ballistic when it happens...

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    You were doing what most would to stay visible, above and beyond what's mandated by law, so the onus is on the driver to see you.

    However.

    Motorists, already not the best in the world where it comes to cyclist safety... or their own, get worse when it rains. Don't know why, but people take bigger chances in the rain than I think they would otherwise. Just a personal observation on my end, not to be confused with real data.

    But clearly your cow-orker was concerned enough for your safety to say something. Sure, take him/her to task for his/her comment--you're absolutely right that the responsibility is on them--but for everyone like that, there's plenty of drivers who might voice the same thing if they knew you. Meaning--there's probably plenty of other drivers who also don't see you with your current visibility setup.

    Get more visible with more lights. You shouldn't have to, but that cow-orker is the universe telling you that you are not noticeable enough with your current setup for your riding style.

    Maybe put a bright light or SOLAS grade reflective material on the back of your helmet...
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

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    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    This is a video I made a while back in very heavy rain at 2:30pm. Even the the lights on the motor vehicles are their most noticeable part.

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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    You were doing what most would to stay visible, above and beyond what's mandated by law, so the onus is on the driver to see you.

    However.

    Motorists, already not the best in the world where it comes to cyclist safety... or their own, get worse when it rains. Don't know why, but people take bigger chances in the rain than I think they would otherwise. Just a personal observation on my end, not to be confused with real data.

    But clearly your cow-orker was concerned enough for your safety to say something. Sure, take him/her to task for his/her comment--you're absolutely right that the responsibility is on them--but for everyone like that, there's plenty of drivers who might voice the same thing if they knew you. Meaning--there's probably plenty of other drivers who also don't see you with your current visibility setup.

    Get more visible with more lights. You shouldn't have to, but that cow-orker is the universe telling you that you are not noticeable enough with your current setup for your riding style.

    Maybe put a bright light or SOLAS grade reflective material on the back of your helmet...
    I agree that the concern is coming from good intention, however, I've had other co-workers at other times tell me how well lit I am.

    It seems the issue is the conditions of the day. I guess what a good move would be is, on dark mornings with heavy rain, I could augment what I already have.
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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    ...Maybe put a bright light or SOLAS grade reflective material on the back of your helmet...
    before I took it off, I used to put blinkies on the helmet...
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    IMO, there is an equal obligation to see and to be seen; no driver has the right to drive beyond what they can see and avoid, in the way of obstacles.

    BUT...

    Since it's YOUR pedaling ass on the line here, the greater obligation -- to YOURSELF, to keep yourself ALIVE and functional -- falls to you. If I could carry the weight and bulk, I'd have railroad crossing flashers on the back of my bike!!!!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    This is a video I made a while back in very heavy rain at 2:30pm. Even the the lights on the motor vehicles are their most noticeable part.
    Wow, it looks like there was quite a bit of standing water on the right side of the right lane. Nice video.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member chrisb71's Avatar
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    There is some responsibility on both ends (even cars have to have working rear lights) it's probably more on the observer than the observed.

    For instance last weekend sunday night the rain was so bad i could barely see the lane markings. I thought "I shouldn't be out driving in this" visibility was so poor. However "pulling over" would have meant finding a motel in another state that would take us and my 2 dogs, and then try to get back home monday morning (assuming the rain was lighter) before work. Really if safety were the top priority I would have done that but I didn't. If I did hit someone, then it probably would have been all my fault, since I was knowingly driving under such poor visibility conditions. Now what the law would say I have no idea.

    And so even if it's mostly on the observer to watch (cars watch for us, we watch for peds) there is some responsibility on us too. Because we know cars WILL be out in those conditions. Truck drivers can't just refuse to work because there is heavy rain, they'd lose their jobs. Even if that were the right thing to do.

    I added a reflective vest, and feel more visible. But I have been thinking of upgrading from the PB to the Dinotte for this very reason. I need to make sure people see me. Driving in that rain last week taught me that only bright lights can be seen under certain conditions.

    Also one thing: it seems to me all our yellow is pretty worthless under low visibility conditions even at normal night. And only lights or reflectors can be seen. That's what it looks like to me when I'm driving or walking and see bikers pass by. Yellow is more of a daytime visibility component.

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    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
    So, the other morning it's pouring. I'm on my commute and it's dark too. Although I don't run into any problems, I swear, most drivers do not adjust their driving for conditions in fact, I think many drivers drive worse. I think they speed up because they want to get their drive over faster.

    Anyway, later that day someone comes up to me and says he had a hard time seeing me when they passed me on his way to work.

    "If it wasn't for your light, I wouldn't have seen you"

    "But you saw my light through, right?"

    "Yeah, but you should be careful. You're right in the middle of the road."

    So here's the deal. Conditions are worse than usual and I'm seen, but not as well as some would like.

    Not only do I have lights, but I wear a high-vis yellow rain coat with several reflective strips on various areas of it. My rain pants are yellow and my booties have reflective strips up the back of them.

    I suppose I always could add even more reflective strips and 16 more lights, but at what point is it the fault of the cyclist that a driver is having a hard time noticing a lit up, brightly dressed cyclist riding under street lights in front of a vehicle?

    And what is the greater obligation? To be noticed, or to notice?
    Take the lane, outright!!!

    I learned this three years ago, when I was basically run off the road by a motorist who was crowding my back tire, when I was on at two-lane blacktop. I moved to let her pass. But instead, she ran me off the road. Unless a motorist is a cyclist themselves, they don't care. The cops don't even care!!! There were two responding police officers, one city and one county. The woman had the audacity to make a bold face lie to the police officers, claiming she didn't see me!!!! When only moments before the accident, I had been taking the lane!!!!!

  22. #22
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisb71 View Post
    ... it seems to me all our yellow is pretty worthless under low visibility conditions even at normal night. And only lights or reflectors can be seen. That's what it looks like to me when I'm driving or walking and see bikers pass by. Yellow is more of a daytime visibility component.
    on those early morning commutes in the summer, I'll head out without the coat and my wife worries. She wants me to put on my reflective ankle bands.

    I ask her about driving in black cars at night. What makes them safe after dark. Well it's lights of course. Lights make one visible in the dark. Reflective material helps, but lights are better.

    It's no problem to put on the bands and it makes her feel better.
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    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    This is a video I made a while back in very heavy rain at 2:30pm. Even the the lights on the motor vehicles are their most noticeable part.
    Could you imagine if a bikes blinkies were the size of a cars lights? That'd be something.

    As it is, I think a blinky is pretty good, better than a steady light and maybe better than the bigger and dual vehicle rear lights.

    Then again, the fact that a bike is so much smaller than a car or truck makes it less noticeable than a motor vehicle or is the lack of threat from a bike make it less of a concern?
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  24. #24
    Senior Member closetbiker's Avatar
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    each time I have been hit by either a car or bike, and I was able to talk to the offending driver/biker, I asked, couldn't you see me?

    All of them said, yes.

    Maybe being seen is over-rated
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  25. #25
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Notice too how (in non night) conditions the brighter colored cars show up much better than the dark ones when against the dark background of the trees.

    I always use a solid or blinking (depending on ambient light levels) under-saddle light and a head mounted blinkie when dark or dim, but not full sunlight.

    This video is of the same commute a bit later. Starts on same 45mph arterial road (note traffic speed is now higher) and then at 0:45 I turn onto a collector street into an active school zone. There are more examples of vehicles without lights on and they nearly disappear in some cases.

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