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  1. #1
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    Minor Crash Immediately After Right Turn

    I'd appreciate any advice anyone has about how to better avoid this situation, as I'm not totally sure whether I did everything I should have here.

    There is a particular point on my commute home where I have to turn right off of a major arterial road onto a side road, and then take a left off of the side road soon after. The arterial road is a particularly hazardous one for cyclists (very busy with 2 lanes each direction + center lane, speed limit of 40 mph, in practice many cars travel at speeds of 55+). It has bike lanes, which I don't love, as I think it encourages people to fly through there rather than taking care. The 2-lane side road that I turn onto there has much lighter traffic, and is much narrower, so I really can't share a lane safely with a car on that road. That means that I have to merge left into the traffic stream on the side road from the bike lane on the busy road (also, I have to do this to prepare for my upcoming left soon after the intersection). For the most part, I haven't had problems doing this, as there is not much right-turning vehicle traffic there. I try to be cautious and signal my intent, but it seems to throw a few drivers for a loop that I was in the bike lane on the main road and now am in the single main lane on the side road. I certainly don't turn right at the same time as a car or anything like that, as obviously that would set up a conflict over the lane space and I think would put me technically in the wrong since I would be the one merging left. Instead, I turn right, signal and merge left, and then signal and turn left while moving to the center line. Most drivers seem to figure out my intentions just fine, and either wait behind me until after I take my left or pass on my right (since I'll be near the center line as I prepare for my left turn).

    Well, yesterday it didn't work out that way. A motorist, who was driving very aggressively in general, came roaring around the corner soon after I made my right turn onto the side road, and ended up behind me in the lane. He seemed surprised that I was there, and slammed on his brakes and came to a complete stop behind me (stupid, and too fast a turn, but whatever...). So, I just stuck my left arm out, and proceeded as normal to move towards the center line and prepare for my upcoming left turn. Then, VERY unexpectedly for me, the guy passes me ON THE LEFT by flooring it and gunning his engine from a standstill. He crossed totally over into the oncoming lane and came within inches of hitting several cars that were waiting for the light in the opposite direction. Then, he swerved back to the right immediately in front of me, totally cutting off my path (I'd have been hit hard if I'd already been in the middle of my left turn, but fortunately I was watching him because he seemed to be an aggressive driver). I immediately braked and turned hard to the right to avoid getting hit, and ended up wiping out on the pavement because of the sudden evasive maneuver. The guy saw me go down, paused briefly in the road up ahead, and then floored it and took off, without even bothering to ask if I was okay (I picked myself up very quickly, not wanting to be on the ground in the road there, so maybe he figured I wasn't hurt at all). I did end up falling on my wrist, which hurts a little bit now, so I wasn't totally fine, and I broke the mount for my bike computer.

    I'll admit I was pissed, and gave the guy the finger as I picked myself up. And I didn't have the presence of mind to get his license plate number. But thinking back on this, is there anything I could do to prevent this situation from happening in the future? I'm wondering whether the fact that this happened soon after a right turn might have contributed to his surprise/poor handling of the situation, as I try not to assume malicious intent. I'm just not sure what else I can do to avoid something this, since I did signal clearly and had completed the merge into the traffic lane BEFORE he made his right.

  2. #2
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    1. Lighting and visibility. If you're not wearing construction worker yellow with reflective stripes and running one or two blinkies in the back, you should be.
    2. Awareness. If you're not using a mirror, get one.
    3. Communication. Assertively communicate your intentions. This includes hand signals, lane positioning, looking back at the car and making eye contact, etc.
    4. Depending on the intersection, I might merge from the bike lane to the motorized traffic lane before making the right turn so that any motor traffic preparing to turn right would be aware that I was there. Not at the last minute, but half a block to a block prior to turning. While you're in the bike lane, you are kind of invisible to the motorized traffic. When you are squarely in your lane, the see you. Except for the most crazed driver, if they see you they won't hit you.
    5. Flipping the bird is always intended to piss off the other person. It might give you satisfaction but it won't make you safer. I try to never do that. I blow off steam by muttering under my breath a lot of the time.

    It might be that none of these would have deterred an aggressive driver like the one you encountered, but these are things I would think about.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  3. #3
    Galveston County Texas 10 Wheels's Avatar
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    So glad he did not hit you.
    Some things are beyond a riders control.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    1. Lighting and visibility. If you're not wearing construction worker yellow with reflective stripes and running one or two blinkies in the back, you should be.
    2. Awareness. If you're not using a mirror, get one.
    3. Communication. Assertively communicate your intentions. This includes hand signals, lane positioning, looking back at the car and making eye contact, etc.
    4. Depending on the intersection, I might merge from the bike lane to the motorized traffic lane before making the right turn so that any motor traffic preparing to turn right would be aware that I was there. Not at the last minute, but half a block to a block prior to turning. While you're in the bike lane, you are kind of invisible to the motorized traffic. When you are squarely in your lane, the see you. Except for the most crazed driver, if they see you they won't hit you.
    5. Flipping the bird is always intended to piss off the other person. It might give you satisfaction but it won't make you safer. I try to never do that. I blow off steam by muttering under my breath a lot of the time.

    It might be that none of these would have deterred an aggressive driver like the one you encountered, but these are things I would think about.
    1. Yes, I'm definitely going to work on upgrading my visibility further. I was wearing a jacket with reflective yellow shoulders, and had my rear blinky on, and I have reflective strips all over my bike. But the incident occurred during twilight conditions, so that's a good point that I'll think about. I've got several more lights on order, to that end. I think he definitely saw me, though, since he stopped directly behind me in the lane before pulling his aggressive maneuver.

    2. I haven't gotten around to putting a mirror on this bike, as my old one didn't fit the bars on this one. I'm definitely going to find a compatible one after this incident, though I'm not sure how much it would have helped in this particular situation since I was watching him over my shoulder at the time. I think I was more just surprised by his move because it was way out of the norm for what I normally experience there (like I said, 99.99% cars will wait behind me, or pass on the right after I move to the center).

    3. I made eye contact with him when I noted his weird full stop behind me and clearly signaled almost the entire time after the right turn. I don't know why you would ever pass someone signaling for a left, on the left...would he do that to a car? It seems insane to me...perhaps he didn't know what the extended left arm meant, and thought I was gesturing for him to pass me?

    4. I've considered doing that before, but it's quite hard to do because the traffic on the main road is so heavy and high-speed. I'm normally all for doing that, but this is one place where the traffic conditions make it a little tough. That's why I haven't been doing that, but I'll see if that works out. Regardless, I think he did see me, as I said, since he stopped before his crazy swerve.

    5. Agreed. I try not to escalate the situation that way, and I've gotten pretty good as suppressing it in most run-of-the-mill bad driving situations. This time I was just super-pissed because I fell over, and my temper got the best of me.

  5. #5
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    I don't think I can make any suggestions, but I'm sorry this happened to you. Sounds like you were doing everything right and just ran into someone that wasn't thinking. At twilight, I generally have a blinky going, but as you say this wouldn't have helped you.

  6. #6
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Something similar to me happened to me, only it was a city bus that passed me on the left That convinced me to get a mirror. I like having the mirror mounted on my helmet; I can aim it easily with slight head movements in order to take in the whole scene behind me. It was freaky for a couple of days but now I feel naked without it.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  7. #7
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    A bus sounds even worse...ugh. At least a bus wouldn't be able to make such a quick maneuver, though. What was really frightening in this instance wasn't so much the bad/close pass, as I'm used to that. It's that a) my signal was ignored, and b) that he went from a standstill to flying past me in like 1 second. So, I think I'll work on visibility, etc and chalk this one up mainly to poor judgment and impatience.

  8. #8
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    With th engine in the back, though, buses are silent as they approach. I was just right of the double yellow (with plenty of room to pass on the right), I put out my arm to signal the left turn and almost touched the bus. To this day I don't know why he felt compelled to pass me by going over the double yellow when there was a lot or room to pass me on the right.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  9. #9
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    Yeah, buses are definitely scary like that because of the silence...same with hybrids in electric mode. It really seems to me like some drivers just need some better education/training on what to do in various situations. What we have in the U.S. right now is woefully inadequate, especially with respect to how they should properly share a lane with a bicyclist or even a motorcyclist or scooter. I'd like to see some testing of actual driving skills, perhaps on a simulator, rather than a cursory "do you know how your car works" checklist. I can't understand why we don't do that now, given the number of deaths we have on our highways every year and given that it would help improve people's driving skills, period, and not just in dealing with bicyclists.

    Of course, bicyclists and road engineers probably bear some responsibility in forming this sort of driver behavior. If 90% of the bicyclists that drivers pass are either in bike lanes or gutter bunnies, some of the dumber drivers are probably going to come to have the expectation that you always pass a bike on the left instead of the right depending on the situation. That's still no excuse for ignoring hand signals, but it's something of an explanation.

  10. #10
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    In similar left turn situations, unless the line is extraordinarily narrow, I tend to signal early and hug extremely close to the center line inviting motor traffic to slide by on the right as if I were in a narrow little left turn lane for bikes. That may not be the best practice and may not have been helpful in your situation, but has served me well over the years. Every so often a left-turning driver will turn almost simultaneously. In that case I just ease up, let them ahead, and then assume the appropriate lane sharing or taking position.
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    Right turning traffic from arterial needs to yield to traffic in the bike lane before making the right. Consequently, right turning autos need to yield to your right turn into the lane. That's little consolation to the real world. In the real world, watch your back, always make sure any turning cars are yielding to you and your signal or wait for them to turn and repeat with the next car, if there.

    The aggressive driver committed a felony hit and run, as there was an injury. Report it if you wish, but without the plate number, nothing is going to happen.

    no manner of lights, sirens and reflective tape would have stopped this guy. Thankfully they are pretty rare.

  12. #12
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
    In similar left turn situations, unless the line is extraordinarily narrow, I tend to signal early and hug extremely close to the center line inviting motor traffic to slide by on the right as if I were in a narrow little left turn lane for bikes. That may not be the best practice and may not have been helpful in your situation, but has served me well over the years. Every so often a left-turning driver will turn almost simultaneously. In that case I just ease up, let them ahead, and then assume the appropriate lane sharing or taking position.
    That's exactly what I was doing when the bus passed me on the left. That's why I recommend mirrors.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCROUDS View Post
    Right turning traffic from arterial needs to yield to traffic in the bike lane before making the right. Consequently, right turning autos need to yield to your right turn into the lane. That's little consolation to the real world. In the real world, watch your back, always make sure any turning cars are yielding to you and your signal or wait for them to turn and repeat with the next car, if there.

    The aggressive driver committed a felony hit and run, as there was an injury. Report it if you wish, but without the plate number, nothing is going to happen.

    no manner of lights, sirens and reflective tape would have stopped this guy. Thankfully they are pretty rare.
    I'm not sure of what the law says about hit-and-run: is a driver actually required, legally, to stop and assist when their actions were the cause of someone falling over but they didn't actually make contact with you with their car? I fell because of the evasive maneuver I had to make, but he didn't actually hit me (just came really close). Regardless, you're right, I don't see much point in reporting it given that I wouldn't be able to identify the car or driver.

    And yes, ultimately these drivers are very rare. I've never had something this egregious happen to me before, and I've certainly never fallen because of a driver's actions before. I've obviously encountered some bad driving, but nothing *this* bad or this close. It's certainly not going to stop me from continuing to ride...I think it shook my wife up that this happened to me more than it did me.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    That's exactly what I was doing when the bus passed me on the left. That's why I recommend mirrors.
    Yep, and I was almost all the way over to the center line in this case, too (though I had just moved over there). That's part of why I was surprised...99% of drivers are intelligent enough to pass on the right when I do that.

  15. #15
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels View Post
    Some things are beyond a riders control.
    ^^ this...

    You can minimize this somewhat by expecting the other users to always do the stupidest thing possible and plan your contingencies accordingly. But in the end, you can't cure stupid and sometimes stuff happens no matter how alert you are or how well you plan for Murphy.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnemia View Post
    I'm not sure of what the law says about hit-and-run: is a driver actually required, legally, to stop and assist when their actions were the cause of someone falling over but they didn't actually make contact with you with their car? I fell because of the evasive maneuver I had to make, but he didn't actually hit me (just came really close). Regardless, you're right, I don't see much point in reporting it given that I wouldn't be able to identify the car or driver.

    And yes, ultimately these drivers are very rare. I've never had something this egregious happen to me before, and I've certainly never fallen because of a driver's actions before. I've obviously encountered some bad driving, but nothing *this* bad or this close. It's certainly not going to stop me from continuing to ride...I think it shook my wife up that this happened to me more than it did me.
    What state are you in? In my state (florida) the wording is "involved in" an accident. You don't have to hit someone to be invovled in an accident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCROUDS View Post
    What state are you in? In my state (florida) the wording is "involved in" an accident. You don't have to hit someone to be invovled in an accident.
    I'm in Virginia. And I just Googled it and it seems that the statute here has very similar wording to that. Good to know, though I doubt it will matter in this particular case.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnemia View Post
    The 2-lane side road that I turn onto there has much lighter traffic, and is much narrower, so I really can't share a lane safely with a car on that road...but it seems to throw a few drivers for a loop that I was in the bike lane on the main road and now am in the single main lane on the side road.
    It sounds like the problem is that they aren't merging into the bike lane before making the turn as they are legally required to, depending on what state you're in. If they behaved as they're supposed to, you would be able to make the right turn and then immediately take the lane, allowing yourself to merge left for the next turn.

    Or is the 2-lane road 2 lanes in each direction? Then it means they aren't turning into the nearest lane as they are supposed to.

    In any case, I'd report that intersection to the authorities. Also, you could install a helmet cam and record your rides. Then if this happens again, you would have video evidence.

  19. #19
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    I want you all to come to Seoul and ride with me here for a few days. This kinda **** happens all the time. Motor cycles are the worst and they are EVERYWHERE! I was making a left turn, from the left turn lane but not at an intersection, the traffic was stopped all around me. Just after I pass the yellow line a morot cycle that was doing about 40mph going against oncoming traffic, trying to pass the stopped traffic going our way, slams on his breaks and nearly kills us both. Just your typical day in Korea....

  20. #20
    Senior Member chrisb71's Avatar
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    The only other thing not mentioned above would be after turning to stay on the right, and stop when you come to the next intersection (where you turn left) and here stop in front of the traffic going the direction you are going to go, turn your bike 90 degrees, and wait for the signal change to proceed down that street when the rest of the traffic does. Sometimes I have to do that with heavy traffic if there's a left and I can't get over to the left turn lane.

    I try to take the lane on turns for the same reason: it forces cars to not be able to hook you. Because not all cars merge right as far as they can before making the turn (I believe it is the law here) On right turns it works well. (though I don't have very fast streets like the OP so merging into the turn lane is pretty easy)

    But on left turns I often have the same problem as the OP: I signal left, get into the left lane, and some maniac floors it crossing the double yellow to go around me so they can turn left first, or go straight. I have no idea what to do about those people.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnemia View Post
    I'm in Virginia.
    Virginia Code 46.2-846 says:

    1. Right turns: Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
    It sounds like the drivers aren't doing that.

  22. #22
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    One of the things I do in situations like that is ride the center line. My situation is oncoming traffic is much calmer and lighter so If I control the lane I get passed on the left, which is what I don't want. Anther thing is always have option 2. If see aggressive driver coming abandon your left turn and go straight for a bit then u-turn after he leaves. I end up doing an option 2 about once a month, somethings are not worth the hassle.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhofmann View Post
    Virginia Code 46.2-846 says:



    It sounds like the drivers aren't doing that.
    Nope, they aren't. I can tell you that that law is WIDELY ignored around here, and not really enforced at all. I knew about that one a while ago, and I've asked a number of coworkers, etc who don't bike about it. NONE of them knew that you are required to merge into the bike lane to make a right turn. I would be surprised if even one person in 20 obeys that one. Actually, I regularly even see drivers who make totally illegal right turns from a straight-ahead lane to my left because for some strange reason they don't want to slot in behind me in a right-turn-only lane as I'm waiting to make a right. I would guess that about 1 out of 10 drivers do that at a few intersections I ride through daily. So if they won't even merge into a right-turn lane behind me, it's probably REALLY a stretch in their brains for them to consider merging into a bike lane to make a right.

    I've come to believe that a lot of the problems we have with drivers boils down to the fact that cities and counties have basically completely abrogated their responsibility to enforce basic traffic laws. They aren't willing to pay for sufficient cops to provide even a minimum level of traffic enforcement, and so drivers just sort of make up their own rules. I never thought I'd say this, but perhaps more automated enforcement of laws could make a difference.
    Last edited by mnemia; 11-09-10 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Added detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    One of the things I do in situations like that is ride the center line. My situation is oncoming traffic is much calmer and lighter so If I control the lane I get passed on the left, which is what I don't want. Anther thing is always have option 2. If see aggressive driver coming abandon your left turn and go straight for a bit then u-turn after he leaves. I end up doing an option 2 about once a month, somethings are not worth the hassle.
    I, in fact, WAS riding the center line at the time this happened, on a very narrow road. He had equal distance on both sides of me to pass, and yet inexplicably he chose to pass me on the side with oncoming traffic while I was signaling a turn in that direction, and then swerve back to the right in front of me without sufficient room for me to continue moving straight forward.

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    Bike lanes as they are are a failure of road design.

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