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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    NYC bikesmart brochure

    link to BIKESMART, NYCDOTs guide to safe cycling in the big apple.

    quite compelling that a city with quite an expansive bikeway network is also concerned with educating its citizens in safe, vehicular riding practices. Some of those opposed to better planning for roadway bicycling bluff these two strategies are mutually exclusive. This brochure makes it abundantly clear this is NOT the case. Bikeways and cyclist education can coexist.




    NYCDOT SMARTCYCLING brochure
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-23-10 at 09:35 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #2
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Bikeways and cyclist education can coexist . . .
    Can and should.
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    absolutely.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #4
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Use Your Bell
    Your bell alerts drivers... it is required by law.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Ride in the direction of traffic.
    Yet NYC paints counter flow facilities!
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  6. #6
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Bek actually doesn't know squat about NYC, he's never lived there and he's like 3,000 miles away

  7. #7
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    what does that have to do with a bike smart brochure from new york city? Nice one, incredible how a simple post about a bike ed brochure would solicit such vapid personal commentary. What does randya think of NYC publishing a streetsmart guide for bicyclists, not my personal biography ? did randya even look at the brochure?

    Bicyclist education about vehicular and safe cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans. these two are not mutually exclusive.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-23-10 at 01:06 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    link to BIKESMART, NYCDOTs guide to safe cycling in the big apple.

    quite compelling that a city with quite an expansive bikeway network is also concerned with educating its citizens in safe, vehicular riding practices. Some of those opposed to better planning for roadway bicycling bluff these two strategies are mutually exclusive. This brochure makes it abundantly clear this is NOT the case. Bikeways and cyclist education can coexist.




    NYCDOT SMARTCYCLING brochure
    Your argument, Bek, is simplistic, presumably for your ideological purposes. The concepts of bikeway cycling and vehicular cycling are mutually incompatible, which is proved by the NYC brochure. At some places it instructs cyclists to "ride right and pass left", while at other places it instructs cyclists to overtake on the right-hand side of motor traffic.

  9. #9
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    what does that have to do with a bike smart brochure from new york city? Nice one, incredible how a simple post about a bike ed brochure would solicit such vapid personal commentary. What does randya think of NYC publishing a streetsmart guide for bicyclists, not my personal biography ? did randya even look at the brochure?

    Bicyclist education about vehicular and safe cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans. these two are not mutually exclusive.
    It's relevant because you wouldn't know what's real and what's propaganda from 3000 miles away

    I see that they are selling the progam with boobies, too, just like most other advertising propaganda
    Last edited by randya; 11-23-10 at 02:02 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    I've got one question: Where is the corresponding educational brochure for all the Queens and Jersey motorists?

    cyclist education is at best only half of the necessary educational component.

  11. #11
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    I see that they also advise cyclists to stay out of the door zone.

    I thought you said that the door zone was an overrated hazard and not relevant in some other thread?
    Last edited by randya; 11-23-10 at 02:50 PM.

  12. #12
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    what does that have to do with a bike smart brochure from new york city? Nice one, incredible how a simple post about a bike ed brochure would solicit such vapid personal commentary. What does randya think of NYC publishing a streetsmart guide for bicyclists, not my personal biography ? did randya even look at the brochure?

    Bicyclist education about vehicular and safe cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans. these two are not mutually exclusive.
    Very little with the brochure, but a lot to do with how well any of these bike facilities really work.

    Not to mention that we do regularly criticize folks here for "armchair quarterbacking," which is essentially what you are doing with regard to NYC. Frankly, I like to visit places before I make too many lofty comments about "the way things work."

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    It's relevant because you wouldn't know what's real and what's propaganda from 3000 miles away

    I see that they are selling the program with boobies, too, just like most other advertising propaganda
    made me look...

  14. #14
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Very little with the brochure, but a lot to do with how well any of these bike facilities really work.

    Not to mention that we do regularly criticize folks here for "armchair quarterbacking," which is essentially what you are doing with regard to NYC. Frankly, I like to visit places before I make too many lofty comments about "the way things work."
    oh, i was just posting about a great cyclist education resource being distributed in New York City.

    I don't know about that 'armchair quarterbacking', gene - when rider counts go from 900 to 2600 as a result of the sands street bikeway and cyclist safety was enhanced, for example, the lofty comments about how well these things work are being said by new york bicyclists.

    the numbers for that particular project speak for themselves.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-23-10 at 04:49 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  15. #15
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Putting out that brochure really isn't that big of an accomplishment, jurisdictions all over the country routinely publish guides like that, with the same information in it.

    Treating it like it's some big deal is kind of stupid.

  16. #16
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    kind of stupid i guess if you think cyclist education is stupid.

    i think its notable as it is cyclist education that is concurrent with bikeways planning. the two play together in New York City.

    I think it's pretty cool that new york city wants more educated cyclists and safer roadway bicycling amidst their bikeways promotion. it disproves some of the tired, fraudulent canards touted by some how bikeways planning leads only to incompetence.

    New York City is taking steps to educate new yorkers in safe, effective roadway cycling.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-23-10 at 06:51 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #17
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    what are they doing to reeducate motorists to drive safely around cyclists? where's that brochure?

  18. #18
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    ..... The concepts of bikeway cycling and vehicular cycling are mutually incompatible, which is proved by the NYC brochure. At some places it instructs cyclists to "ride right and pass left", while at other places it instructs cyclists to overtake on the right-hand side of motor traffic.

    john. your assertion that bikeways and vehicular cycling are mutually incompatible is inaccurate, as a major class of bikeways predicate and generally encourage full lane use by bicyclists. shared lane, class III bikeways. it's outlined on the cycling guide.

    besides which, i didn't say cyclists always 'vehicular' cycle on all types of bikeway, i stated that Bicyclist education about vehicular and safe cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans. these two are not mutually exclusive.

    Cyclist education programs about safe and vehicular cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans and bikeways. the two concepts coexist.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-24-10 at 09:33 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #19
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Your argument, Bek, is simplistic, presumably for your ideological purposes. The concepts of bikeway cycling and vehicular cycling are mutually incompatible, which is proved by the NYC brochure. At some places it instructs cyclists to "ride right and pass left", while at other places it instructs cyclists to overtake on the right-hand side of motor traffic.
    By the flawed Forester logic ferries and bridges must be mutually incompatible with this condition proven by them requiring differing actions from both mv drivers and cyclists. I happen to appreciate both and have no problem telling the difference.
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    john. your assertion that bikeways and vehicular cycling are mutually incompatible is a sanctimonious, ideological lie, as a major class of bikeways predicate and generally encourage full lane use by bicyclists. shared lane, class III bikeways. it's outlined on the cycling guide.

    besides which, i didn't say cyclists always 'vehicular' cycle on all types of bikeway, i stated that Bicyclist education about vehicular and safe cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans. these two are not mutually exclusive.

    Cyclist education programs about safe and vehicular cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans and bikeways. the two concepts coexist.
    Class III bikeways are designated where width is so restricted that the motor lanes are narrow and there's no width for a bike lane. In that case even the bike planners say that cyclists are allowed to use a full lane. That's not the definition of vehicular cycling, Bek. That doesn't prove anything.

    Bek, you write accurately that "Cyclist education programs about safe and vehicular cycling can coexist in cities that have bike master plans and bikeways. The two concepts coexist." I see, the coexistence is between education for safe cycling and education for vehicular cycling. No, that's not quite what you wrote. You wrote that two kinds of program can exist. That is certain correct. But the purpose of educational programs is not to exist, but to teach, to produce educated students. As I wrote in my initial post on this subject, at one point the NYC text teaches cyclists to overtake motor traffic its left, while at another point it teaches them to overtake motor traffic its right. What should students learn from that?

    Any education program must be based on a consistent pattern of thought, call it philosophy if you like. The purpose of the training is to develop in the students that same pattern of thought, so that each one of them knows how to apply his knowledge to any situation. The NYC text cannot do that, because it is based on the incoherent thought patterns of the cyclist-inferiority bikeway superstition. The inconsistencies in the text clearly demonstrated that that difficulty cannot be solved in any rational manner.

  21. #21
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    john, you're one of the largest proponents of cyclist education. setting aside your misguided, ideologically driven sanctimony about bikeways and vehicular cycling purportedly being incompatible,

    is there something wrong with new york city publishing education manuals that seek to educate and inform cyclists about safer cycling in New York City?

    you are trying to deny the efficacy of the bike safety phamplet because it discusses using bikeway facilities safely by using them to overtake other vehicles on the right, yet there's nothing contradicting the new york rules of the road in that advice, john.

    You think the existence of bikeways and recommendations to cyclists and drivers both as to the safe operation in their proximity somehow renders cyclist safety education invalid.

    . That ideological vehemence is sorry and misguided.


    such staunch ideological opposition to cyclist education from a proponent of cyclist education. such rankle is surprising, misguided, and pathetic.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-24-10 at 09:41 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    john, you're one of the largest proponents of cyclist education. setting aside your misguided, ideologically driven sanctimony about bikeways and vehicular cycling purportedly being incompatible,

    is there something wrong with new york city publishing education manuals that seek to educate and inform cyclists about safer cycling in New York City?

    you are trying to deny the efficacy of the bike safety phamplet because it discusses using bikeway facilities safely by using them to overtake other vehicles on the right, yet there's nothing contradicting the new york rules of the road in that advice, john.

    You think the existence of bikeways and recommendations to cyclists and drivers both as to the safe operation in their proximity somehow renders cyclist safety education invalid.

    . That ideological vehemence is sorry and misguided.


    such staunch ideological opposition to cyclist education from a proponent of cyclist education. such rankle is surprising, misguided, and pathetic.
    In the specific context of this discussion, without reference to other errors in the NYC instructions, we see that you, Bek, advocate that government provide written instructions to cyclists that they should overtake on the right-hand side of motor traffic. Thank you, Bek, for this exemplification of your ideology.

  23. #23
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I'm sorry john what was that? Sanctimonious rankle is not very convincing.

    Its quite suprising to see such staunch ideological opposition to cyclist education from a proponent of cyclist education.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-24-10 at 04:47 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #24
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    So Bek, you are all in favor of cyclist mis-education as long as it makes cycling seem safer and helps sell more bikes.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I'm sorry john what was that? Sanctimonious rankle is not very convincing.

    Its quite suprising to see such staunch ideological opposition to cyclist education from a proponent of cyclist education.
    The fact that I recognize the deficiencies in the NYC cyclist training document, that I recognize that it does not produce understanding in the student but instead presents self-contradictory propaganda, while you do not have that percipience, demonstrates that your ideology is just as confused as the authors of that document. I know the criteria for good educational material; it is obvious that you do not. There's a little good in that document, but that good is contradicted by other contrary instructions, and there is no consistent thesis to be understood by the student.

    As has been obvious for decades, I advocate accurate, useful, instruction of cyclists. That is precisely why I disapprove of the NYC cyclist propaganda sheet.

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