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Just about doored

Old 12-19-10, 08:02 PM
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Just about doored

Thought I would drop a note here, I was nearly doored the other day. I thought I was pretty good about not riding in the door zone, but it turns out I was drastically underestimating the actual length of a car door.

Those silly bike lanes they paint next to the parked cars are actually completely within the arc of a door, not even riding on the extreme edge of them is safe. I guess maybe that's just common sense, but I didn't realize it.

If you cycle on these sorts of roads, I recommend actually observing a car door opening from your point of view as a passing cyclist and making a mental note of just how far away you need to be to remain safe. You might be surprised.
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Old 12-19-10, 08:47 PM
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It's a fine line between staying out of the door zone and having to contend with cantankerous motorists. Many a motorist has been riled up about my riding on the white line furthest from the curb or my taking the lane altogether, especially when they see a perfectly good bike lane next to me.
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Old 12-19-10, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
It's a fine line between staying out of the door zone and having to contend with cantankerous motorists. Many a motorist has been riled up about my riding on the white line furthest from the curb or my taking the lane altogether, especially when they see a perfectly good bike lane next to me.
Which is why door zone bike lanes are unsafe and should never be created at all. They specifically encourage cyclists to ride in a dangerous area, and cause them to be subjected to abuse if they actually are smart enough to avoid them. They punish safe riding and encourage unsafe riding, purely for the expediency of motor vehicle traffic.

Since many/most of these DZ bike lanes are in places with low speed limits anyway, I don't see any real reason for them to exist. They should be removed and replaced with sharrows or nothing if widening the road is not a serious option.
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Old 12-19-10, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mnemia
Which is why door zone bike lanes are unsafe and should never be created at all. They specifically encourage cyclists to ride in a dangerous area, and cause them to be subjected to abuse if they actually are smart enough to avoid them. They punish safe riding and encourage unsafe riding, purely for the expediency of motor vehicle traffic.

Since many/most of these DZ bike lanes are in places with low speed limits anyway, I don't see any real reason for them to exist. They should be removed and replaced with sharrows or nothing if widening the road is not a serious option.
+1
Rather than sharrows, why is it so hard to place the safety of legitimate road users as a higher priority than the storage of private property on the public right-of-way? At least my state's law allows me to legally leave the bike lane when it is hazardous, which all dzbl's are.
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Old 12-20-10, 03:21 AM
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The possibility of being 'doored' and, the possibility of someone running me into someone's door, is why I don't use bike lanes. I 'take the lane' to avoid both.
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Old 12-20-10, 03:37 AM
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The door on a coupe will often extend far beyond the bike lane and you need more than 3 feet passing room... I ride where I need to ride and if that means taking the lane, I take the lane... which is pretty much most of the time.
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Old 12-20-10, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Commodus
Thought I would drop a note here, I was nearly doored the other day. I thought I was pretty good about not riding in the door zone, but it turns out I was drastically underestimating the actual length of a car door.

Those silly bike lanes they paint next to the parked cars are actually completely within the arc of a door, not even riding on the extreme edge of them is safe. I guess maybe that's just common sense, but I didn't realize it.

If you cycle on these sorts of roads, I recommend actually observing a car door opening from your point of view as a passing cyclist and making a mental note of just how far away you need to be to remain safe. You might be surprised.

Here's a little demonstration about door zone distances that we do in the Traffic Skills 101 class...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs

The best practice is to leave room for a whole 'nother rider (a "ghost rider," per se) between you and the parked cars. Bike lanes and on-street parking often aren't very compatible.
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Old 12-21-10, 04:18 PM
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Take the lane but yield to passing motorists and go back into the bike lane to let them by. Just ride slower so you have enough time to react in case anyone opens their door.
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Old 12-21-10, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mnemia
Which is why door zone bike lanes are unsafe and should never be created at all. They specifically encourage cyclists to ride in a dangerous area, and cause them to be subjected to abuse if they actually are smart enough to avoid them. They punish safe riding and encourage unsafe riding, purely for the expediency of motor vehicle traffic.

Since many/most of these DZ bike lanes are in places with low speed limits anyway, I don't see any real reason for them to exist. They should be removed and replaced with sharrows or nothing if widening the road is not a serious option.

Low speed limits??? Around here I can show you DZ BL in 45MPH zones.
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Old 12-21-10, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nvincent
Take the lane but yield to passing motorists and go back into the bike lane to let them by. Just ride slower so you have enough time to react in case anyone opens their door.
Weaving back and forth creates it's own dangers.
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Old 12-21-10, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Weaving back and forth creates it's own dangers.
Of course, but I prefer "easing" my way back and forth rather than "weaving" my way. The dangers will be there regardless but we develop a sixth sense and we're ready for just about anything.
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Old 12-21-10, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nvincent
Of course, but I prefer "easing" my way back and forth rather than "weaving" my way. The dangers will be there regardless but we develop a sixth sense and we're ready for just about anything.
The OP thought he had some sort of sixth sense to avoid being doored. The only reliable way to avoid being doored is to stay out of the door zone. I never put my health in the hands of faith, magic or sixth senses. I personally stay at least one to two feet further out than the widest door I have ever seen in order to avoid flinching when the doors open.
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Old 12-21-10, 11:51 PM
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bikelanes have operational and participatory advantages that far outweigh overblown nanny fears of the dreaded kryptonic 'door zone'.


for example, bicyclists operate further from the doors when there is a bikelane than without (Hunter 2003, I believe) AASHTO compliant bikelanes will have the general operating dynamic of positioning bicyclists further from the parked cars.



in addition to this operating phenomenon characteristic of modern bikelane design, progressive cities around the country (and canada!) are developing better, buffered Class II bikelanes that buffer parked car doors as well as moving traffic. New York City is developing a standard of placing bikelanes on the left side of one way streets.

this is to reduce the chance of dooring from single occupancy vehicles.

a summary: bicyclists generally position themselves further from the parked cars on roads WITH bikelanes than on roads sans bikelanes, and cities across the continent are developing better bikelanes that mitigate or eliminate conflicts exaggerated by those with fears of the dreaded kryptonic 'door zone'.

Last edited by Bekologist; 12-22-10 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 12-22-10, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
bikelanes have operational and participatory advantages that far outweigh overblown nanny fears of the dreaded kryptonic 'door zone'.


for example, bicyclists operate further from the doors when there is a bikelane than without (Hunter 2003, I believe) AASHTO compliant bikelanes will have the general operating dynamic of positioning bicyclists further from the parked cars.



in addition to this operating phenomenon characteristic of modern bikelane design, progressive cities around the country (and canada!) are developing better, buffered Class II bikelanes that buffer parked car doors as well as moving traffic. New York City is developing a standard of placing bikelanes on the left side of one way streets.

this is to reduce the chance of dooring from single occupancy vehicles.

a summary: bicyclists generally position themselves further from the parked cars on roads WITH bikelanes than on roads sans bikelanes, and cities across the continent are developing better bikelanes that mitigate or eliminate conflicts exaggerated by those with fears of the dreaded kryptonic 'door zone'.
There we go again, Bek willing to accept and promote even the most dangerous door zone bike lanes.
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Old 12-22-10, 08:46 AM
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This is the best image I've seen on bikelanes adjacent to door zones...



Safe Cycling Tips: Why Santa Monica Bike Lanes Kind Of Suck And How To Ride In Them Safely Anyways

Last edited by K'Tesh; 12-22-10 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 12-22-10, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by K'Tesh
This is the best image I've seen on bikelanes adjacent to door zones...



Safe Cycling Tips: Why Santa Monica Bike Lanes Kind Of Suck And How To Ride In Them Safely Anyways
I too use Gary Vision on lanes with 7 foot parking space alongside, and only when vehicles are narrow enough to be away from the bike lanes as pictured.

There are several lanes in town that are non compliant and have 6 foot parking, even a medium sized vehicle can extend into the bike lane, much less a full sized dually pickup, then I just take the main traffic lane and deal with any irate motorist that happens along.
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Old 12-22-10, 09:17 AM
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wow, graphics. such fearmongering without facts!

here's a quote from the president of the League of American Bicyclists supporting my position

Originally Posted by Andy Clarke, president of LAB 'smart cycling and bikelanes'
There is no evidence to suggest properly
designed bike lanes are more dangerous for cyclists, and there is plenty of
evidence to suggest that, in fact, bicycle lanes:

encourage bicycle use
improve cyclist and motorist lane discipline and predictability, and
encourage safer riding behavior (by discouraging wrong way and sidewalk
riding).

Last edited by Bekologist; 12-22-10 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 12-22-10, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
wow, graphics. such fearmongering without facts!

here's a quote from the president of the League of American Bicyclists supporting my position
I notice nothing in that quote directly addresses Door Zone Bike Lanes... in fact there is no mention what so ever of DZBL and only the mention of modifying the behavior of cyclists... "(by discouraging wrong way and sidewalk riding)."

Perhaps Andy needs to be asked directly about DZBL.
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Old 12-22-10, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
I notice nothing in that quote directly addresses Door Zone Bike Lanes... in fact there is no mention what so ever of DZBL and only the mention of modifying the behavior of cyclists... "(by discouraging wrong way and sidewalk riding)."

Perhaps Andy needs to be asked directly about DZBL.
And in fact, since he specifically says "properly designed bike lanes" he's probably implicitly excluding them. Although, I would quibble with his statement in general, because I think it's only real true that bike lanes are "safe" for bicyclists who are traveling below a certain speed, even according to the design standards that are used for them, because the planners know that they are dangerous for high-speed cyclists on descents, etc.

I've got no real issue with properly designed and placed bike lanes that are wide enough to meet my standards, and that handle intersections properly. I do have a big problem with DZBLs, and I think they make things more dangerous, not less.
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Old 12-22-10, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Low speed limits??? Around here I can show you DZ BL in 45MPH zones.
Wow, I'm glad we don't have that situation here. All our DZBLs are in congested business district-type areas where the speed limits are 25 mph or 35 at the high end. Putting one of those on a 45 mph road is dangerously negligent. Heck, even putting on-street parking in a 45 mph zone is dangerously negligent, in my opinion.
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Old 12-22-10, 09:48 AM
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yes, cities are improving bikelane standards to increase the buffer between bicyclists and cars, and are using other design tools to improve bikelanes that already aren't the toxic minefields the fearmongers make them out to be.

remember, folks: the door zone is there anytime there are parked cars, yet bicyclists tend to operate further from the parked cars when riding in standard width bikelanes.

quite paradoxical that current standard bikelanes increase the average distance from the parked cars, but I'm confident you guys can grasp the gravity of that.
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Old 12-22-10, 10:03 AM
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Correction: a few cities are building these "buffered bike lanes", which I'm not convinced are safer. The problem with bike lanes is not that they give inadequate "buffers" against cars, but that they often handle intersections very poorly. So buffered bike lanes are a solution in search of a problem, and can make the problem of intersections worse by making it impossible for cyclists to merge into traffic in order to use proper destination positioning. Some bike lanes are fine, but many of them that I've encountered are worse than useless and make things more dangerous (e.g., because they are DZBLs, or because they are only 2 feet wide, or because they improperly are routed to the right of right-turn lanes, etc). If even existing bike lane installations are frequently sub-standard and worthless, why should we expect that our towns and cities will do a better job at implementing "buffered" bike lanes, which will require more complex treatment at intersections in order to be safe, and more money?

It's also very disingenuous to use the alleged behavior of gutter bunnies as an argument for door zone bike lanes. Even if that's true (and I would need to see some real evidence to believe it), it's irrelevant. The gutter bunnies should be taught to ride out of the door zone, but door zone bike lanes penalize them for doing so by directing them to ride in an unsafe area. As I said, they punish competent cycling and encourage incompetent cycling.
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Old 12-22-10, 10:30 AM
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I'm sorry but even AASHTO Class II standard bikelanes present numerous operational and participatory advantages to cyclists in a community.

I'm not being disingenuous by pointing out that bikelanes have been studied and found to generally position cyclists further from the parked cars than when there is no bikelane.

Anecdotally, i've observed reductions in weaving in and out of parked cars by cyclists on streets here that have had bikelanes added to them.

this is something the critics are ignoring.

bicyclists have been found to operate further from the parked cars when cities stripe these bikelanes everyone is up in arms about, and they present numerous other operational and participatory advantages to a cycling community.
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Old 12-22-10, 10:43 AM
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I'll grant you, even without these "studies" you vaguely mention, that your claim may be true that DZBLs reduce the incidence of gutter bunny cyclists weaving in and out of parked cars, etc. That's not what I think is disingenuous about your claims. What I think is disingenuous is that you're focusing on one "benefit" provided by the bike lanes (a small change in the behavior of inexperienced and incompetent cyclists) and ignoring the penalty for competent cyclists that DZBLs create. If a bike lane is present, and I choose not to use it because it's dangerously close to parked cars, motorists get aggressive and angry because they view me as being outside my assigned space. They often react that way even when they're stuck in traffic and aren't going anyway fast anyway, simply because they perceive me as breaking the rules of the road. The goal should be to encourage competent cycling, not to change gutter bunnies/garbage riders from engaging in one dangerous behavior (weaving through parked cars) to another dangerous behavior (riding in a straight line through the door zone). The bike lanes should be positioned outside of the door zone in order to encourage competent cycling, or they should not exist. If the locality is adamant about not removing on-street parking or widening the roads, then sharrows would be a better option than a DZBL if the goal is truly to stop dangerous weaving behavior.

Better yet, we could acknowledge that creating a safe environment for cycling is not just an infrastructure/engineering problem, but one of behavior and culture. There needs to be good enforcement, education, and so on as well.
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Old 12-22-10, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
I'm sorry but even AASHTO Class II standard bikelanes present numerous operational and participatory advantages to cyclists in a community.

I'm not being disingenuous by pointing out that bikelanes have been studied and found to generally position cyclists further from the parked cars than when there is no bikelane.

Anecdotally, i've observed reductions in weaving in and out of parked cars by cyclists on streets here that have had bikelanes added to them.

this is something the critics are ignoring.

bicyclists have been found to operate further from the parked cars when cities stripe these bikelanes everyone is up in arms about, and they present numerous other operational and participatory advantages to a cycling community.
Try to keep in mind that "AASHTO Class II standard bikelanes" are the minimum standard.
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