brakeless619

No thanks on CM, don't like the idea of pissing off some crazy motorist that'll run people over because cyclists are "in the way."

iforgotmename

That it is Good luck and keep spreading the joy doohickie

beebe

So, because the Netherlands and Germany have large amounts of cyclists on the road, necessitating a slower traffic flow, automobile drivers should not be upset when cyclists violate right of way rules? I'll give you that people should not be upset about minor transportation delays, but does that mean that cyclists should not follow the same rules that other road users are expected to follow?

dougmc

For starters, the vast majority Critical Mass rides happen on friday evening, so the number of people who could be made late for work is very small. The only other start time I've heard of is Saturday morning, which certainly won't make many people late for work.

Beyond that, the size of any disruption depends on the number of riders, and few rides are large enough to block traffic for more than three or four minutes max. And really, one should not be surprised by the idea that adding more traffic to rush hour makes rush hour even worse.

wroomwroomoops

Rhetorical questions, or serious ones? Let me know before I waste everybody's time, especially my own.

beebe

Who says rhetorical questions can't be or aren't serious?

Doohickie

Another good CM ride in Fort Worth last night. On the plus side, there were lots of new faces. On the minus side, maybe due to the holiday weekend, many of the regulars didn't make it, so it was smallish crowd (50-70).





This video was taken on a neighborhood street.

uketastic

Once in Austin some old guy in a truck pulled out a gun so a bunch of people broke his windows with their U-locks and then we swarmed him and got him arrested, it was intense.

Usually I just go on CM to ride with my friends and a bunch of other cyclists and it's pretty fun. There isn't supposed to be a leader, the mass is supposed to lead itself but sometimes the mass goes a little overboard and rides fast and up big hills disregarding weaker riders. Yeah, it'll be a crappy critical mass but you just go to the next one and keep riding. If the ride is no fun go to the front and take charge to keep it better for everyone

dougmc

That entire situation was pretty stupid -- I was there taking pictures. Some cyclists cut him off by turning left in front of him, so he turned left too, and then he jerked into a few cyclists (it's not clear if this was intentional or he did it to avoid a bike in front of him -- I couldn't see) and then a few people got stupid.

He wasn't arrested -- the police ultimately let him go, as it wasn't clear to them who started it. The right call, if you ask me.

Fortunately, that sort of incident is the exception rather than the rule.

Still, CM here has gone downhill lately -- no violence or damage or anything like that, just a few people who get in front and get the ride going too fast for the newbies who show up, or run red lights when it makes much more sense to use that as an opportunity to mass up.

iforgotmename

We had about 150 or so for the May ride. Great weather...great ride.

spock

You know what's just plan wrong? When a motorist buzzes a cyclist at 50 mph and gets away with it. When a motorist passes by you and lays down their horn or yelling obscenities and telling you to get off the road without fearing any repercussions from the law, which BTW is harassment. When a motorist hits a cyclist from behind and gets only a ticket for "ohh sorry, I didn't see him/her". When a person in a motor vehicle passes a cyclist and steps on a gas full throttle so you can eat their fumes. When a motorist passes a cyclist and immediately takes a right turn. Amongst many other things that make things so much harder for us than they should be.

You know what else is wrong? Cyclists who think that doing nothing about our problems will solve one thing about the way some motorists and the law treat us. Which came first, intimidation and harassment form motorists and the lack of laws protecting cyclist ,,,,,, OR CM rides? That's what I thought. Did you know that when Civil Rights movement started, many of those who were being maltreated actually opposed those who started those protests in fears of retaliation from the oppressors? Yea, and look where we are now. I believe those protests abstracted traffic as well. That is a different matter, but similar in many ways to our predicament.

Are any of you aware of the fact that there would be many, many, more cyclists on the road in the US if it weren't for their being scared to death of being on the road with motorists? Is that CMs fault?

We have to do something if we want to remain on the road and get more rights for ourselves, and just following all the rules of road ain't gonna cut it. It's been proven time and time again. Cycling organizations don't seem to be powerful enough to make any real changes in the law department soon enough before driver arrogance and intimidation chases away more and more cyclists who are on the road while stopping those who want to be, and before you know it, cyclists could be banned off the road completely. Sorry to break it to you, but those motorists who maltreat us, don't want us on the road,,,,,PERIOD. It's not CM or scofflaws who piss them off. It just you being on the road and there are powerful pricks out there who are trying to stop you because cycling is just not so profitable for them. Deny it all you want, but it's where we are at.

If picketing is not something you like to do, you don't have to show that you are against it.

beebe

Yes, all of that is wrong, but doing wrong in return does not make you better than them. If you want them to behave safely and legally, then you should do the same, or you're a hypocrite.

Apples to oranges. You can't act like people who oppose Critical Mass are opposing all forms of bicycle advocacy. You also shouldn't imply that people are opposing Critical Mass out of cowardly concerns of retaliation.

I was not aware of that, probably because you're making unsubstantiated claims. Most of the people I know who don't want to bike places don't do so because of other reasons.

People are doing things that are not CM that are much more helpful and effective than CM is, without creating the animosity that leads to things like the Brazil incident. For instance, private organizations like Planet Bike fund groups who advocate bicycling rights and help build infrastructure. There are numerous organizations set up to help the cause: Safe Routes to School, Complete Streets, and the Alliance for Biking and Walking are but a few. In my town, there is an organization that builds and maintains MUPs to provide a safe place for people to walk and bike to school, including young children who might be unable to safely bike to school on their own in busier parts of town. All of these groups are more useful, legal, and friendly than Critical Mass. They are all doing a better job, and if you really want to do something for the cause, then you should invest your time into helping them instead of taking part in a childish joyride that causes unnecessary conflict and resentment between cyclists and motorists.

Where? When?


Cyclists being banned from the road will not happen, and thinking that it could happen and stay that way is pretty dumb. The trends right now are of increases in cycling infrastructure and cyclists. Look at Portland, Minneapolis, and NYC, all of them are building streets that are safer for cyclists and pedestrians. I don't see them banning cycling any time soon. If anything, I think it proves you wrong. I expect that as cities like NYC who have been notorious for police acting poorly towards cyclists develop this infrastructure that gets more cyclists out on the streets and creates an environment that is obviously designed to have cyclists, we will see less incidents of unnecessary conflict between cops and bikers.

Some people are just dicks, no matter how they get around. The type of people you describe, despite the way you act like its a huge amount of motorists, are the minority. Almost all of the problems that I have with drivers are people who behave unsafe without doing so for an obviously hostile reason. The ones who are really bad are few and far between. Block off the streets for Critical Mass and who do you think you are inconveniencing? The drivers you have issues with? No, you're indiscriminately inconveniencing people. That's a dick move in my book.

Not all advocacy is created equal. I would argue that in communities where it causes conflict, Critical Mass is doing more harm than good. I reiterate: use your time and energy helping one of the groups who is working to actually create positive change.

spock

No it's not wrong for a large group of cyclists to take the lane and mind their own business. It's not like it happens every day and it's not against the law. I do behave safely but not always legally and most incidents that happen, happen when I'm riding legally.

No, I am just saying that they oppose CM because they don't like to stick their neck out in a more direct way and they turn it against people who do. That is exactly what I am implying. If you reread this thread, you might notice a lot of posters saying how CM is a direct reason for the way some drivers treat us. It's not the case though. CM doesn't happen that often and they yell "get on the sidewalk" all the time. Wake up.

My claim might not be provable, but it's basically common sense. I have personally witnessed many people saying stuff that substantiate my claim and I don't blame them.

That's great, but it's even better to prove the point directly. Creating animosity? Animosity has always been there. It needs to stop and you can't do it effectively unless drivers attitudes change and for that to happen, laws need to be passed and this issue needs to be brought to the surface, and what better way to do it than take it to the streets. I don't know how familiar you are with the concept of protesting. but trust me, they are not a childish joyride and it needs to be done sometimes when unprovoked incidents and driver stupidity happen all the time.

Ohh, I don't think it's gonna get banned. No way. I am just over dramatizing the situation on "get on the sidewalk" attitude. When someone tells you that, do you think it's easy to shake it off? Some cyclists ban them selves because of it and many other situations, and it happened to most of us at least once. Driver attitudes need to change and we are doing more than we should to stay safe which is a great idea, but it's time for drivers step up to the plate a little by being more responsible for their actions.

Not dealing with problems makes them worse. You can build all the infrastructure you want to separate cyclists from motorists, but it won't change drivers attitudes towards cyclist, which is the real problem. It should be relatively safe to ride with or without bike lanes. Still the best way to confront some drivers ignorance is directly through CMs because they have no other way of receiving the message. There are non stop adds on tv advocating cycling safety.

At least it gets on the local news and spreads cycling awareness good or bad. Even a small amount of people wondering, "ohh why would anyone wanna do that", is a success. Trust me, there is a very good reason.

I like the one where people are attacking the real problem directly by being peaceful. Creating positive change isn't always pretty though.

iforgotmename

A couple who met at Cleveland Critical Mass was married there this month. Here is a video I shot if anyone is interested

Dchiefransom

That was called the Critical Manners ride in San Francisco. They split up at red lights and did not cork, staying in the right lane only. The Bike Party in San Jose tries to keep all the cyclists in the right lane, also.

wroomwroomoops

Awesome vid. I just shared it on google+
This also marks my first ever time I shared something on any social network.

kevin_stevens

The perfect self-absorbed perspective.

Forget the legalities involved. What you're doing is FORCING other people to defer to your convenience. "You have to give up your turn because we want to keep our group together." Whether you're pleasant about it or not doesn't change the reality. Whether motorists make the best of it or not doesn't change the reality. Whether you are making the right size mess to have police "support" you in the interest of minimizing the disruption to traffic, doesn't change the reality. Forcing your priorities ahead of everyone else's is socially unacceptable, and there is zero chance that your activity has a net positive reaction on the people you impact. People don't like others cutting in line at the ticket window, they don't like others standing in the express lane with a full shopping cart, they don't like other motorists zipping up to the front of the merge lane instead of alternating turns, and they don't like sitting at a green traffic light unable to proceed because a hundred cyclists want to run the red.

Quit kidding yourself.

KeS

chrisb71

In Chicago in the summer, the big CM takes about a half hour to go by after about 4 miles and everyone is spread out. I watched one go by recently when I was eating dinner at a sidewalk cafe, and couldn't believe how long it took. (When I thought it was over about 5 minutes later another huge group took another 5-10 minutes to pass by). That's almost a half hour of drivers having to sit there not moving at all. When they get that large, I can fully appreciate some people's perspective that they should get parade permits. For now the large CM enjoys police ******* who cork at intersections for us at least for the first 5 or 6 miles before they pull off.

And the routes are preplanned, have leaders. I'm frankly not at all familiar with this "there are no leaders and no routes" business, I've never seen it. Maybe because here the city is large enough with enough cyclists that we really do need leaders and routes or it will be chaos. I don't go on the huge CMs, I enjoy the smaller rides more.

The perception among drivers I've talked to around here seems to me to be that people participate in CM for the explicit purpose of pissing off others. I try to explain that's not it, but I can see why they would think that. But there is no way for even organizers to really police the participants. I know there are critical manners rides, but those are self-selecting.

and Yes, you have to cork, or people die. It's that simple. Even in funeral processions it is not unheard of for someone to try to cross if there is too large of a gap, and there was a death in my hometown 20 years ago during a funeral procession for that reason. So corking is really essential to saving lives. On smaller rides you can cork and not be a big interference, and it's safer for all involved to do that than break them up, and have cars turn from side streets and pull into the middle of the riders - the car drivers are going to have to wait either way so may as well do it the safe way. It's not about wanting to go first, it's about safety. But again, waiting for 1 or 2 minutes is not the same as waiting for 15 or 20 minutes.

Seattle Forrest

Do you have liability insurance for your bike?

CB HI

No fault auto and home owners insurance covers me and the bicycles as well.

KD5NRH

No, it;s pretty damn simple all right, but that's not it; stop at the lights. If that's inconvenient, get a parade permit and arrange for police to close the intersections.

beebe

I am financially responsible for damages caused by my bike. I don't know how to go about placing a bond with the state in order to provide proof of responsibility for a bike, but since the law does not require me to provide proof to law enforcement, I don't see why that extra step matters.

chrisb71

I would agree if we also force every funeral procession to purchase parade permits. Not sure that would fly.
I think it should be based on size. Under 100 riders should not be necessary since it's not a big inconvenience to anyone else.
Since the problem with having groups stop in the middle at lights is cars will turn into the middle of the pack of riders, which just creates a danger when those cars start swerving around.

As a general principle we do not follow the letter of the law, but the spirit: and as long as someone isn't taking advantage of others we look the other way and give them some leeway. There's nothing wrong with that, it allows us to all live together. To try to enforce the letter of the law even though it increases danger to everyone involved doesn't really help anyone. Every day drivers break laws that they think are safe to do so, and I sure don't follow a law if I think it's unsafe, which happens depending on how dangerous the conditions of the road are.

KD5NRH

Funeral processions around here either arrange for police ******* or follow all traffic laws. IIRC, it's an annual arrangement with the funeral homes rather than a per-procession permit, but there's never been an issue.