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Old 11-22-04, 02:39 PM   #1
vincenzosi
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What about us?

In the hub-bub about the token booth closures at various subway stations, we seem to have not made our voices loud enough.

How do you get a bike on the New York City Subway if there are no token booth clerks? Without someone to open the service gate, you cannot get a bike on the subway. This same service gate problem holds for bikes, strollers, shopping carts, and everything else people get onto the subways with.

The answer from the MTA thus far: "We're investigating solutions."

How much do you want to bet the MTA goes ahead with the closures first, then comes up with some half-assed solution to the problem?
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Old 11-22-04, 03:12 PM   #2
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Contact whatever organization provides for handicap access. That'll change it real quick -- no one messes with the ADA.
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Old 11-22-04, 03:14 PM   #3
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There is no "organization" that does it, the MTA takes care of it. Also, not all stations are handicap accessible, so somehow or another the MTA is off the hook on that one anyway.
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Old 11-22-04, 03:17 PM   #4
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as mentioned, contact the Americans with Disabilatys group.

google it. contact them, your problems will be solved.
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Old 11-22-04, 03:19 PM   #5
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ugh. You guys aren't listening.

If the ADA mattered, all the stations would be handicap accessible. They aren't. And closing token boths does not necessarily mean that the station will be inaccessible to the handicapped as the handicapped can't access some stations as they are right now anyway even if a token booth clerk is there.
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Old 11-22-04, 03:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincenzosi
In the hub-bub about the token booth closures at various subway stations, we seem to have not made our voices loud enough.

How do you get a bike on the New York City Subway if there are no token booth clerks? Without someone to open the service gate, you cannot get a bike on the subway. This same service gate problem holds for bikes, strollers, shopping carts, and everything else people get onto the subways with.

The answer from the MTA thus far: "We're investigating solutions."

How much do you want to bet the MTA goes ahead with the closures first, then comes up with some half-assed solution to the problem?
Ahhhhhhhh. The MTA wants to spend billions on the 2nd Avenue subway but can't find any funds for token booth clerks. Once those clerks are gone, you better NOT use the subway at night because there won't be anyone to call the police! The reason they have those gates is to to keep people from jumping over the turn stiles. The city loses tens of millions on jumpers each year.

I have a solution. Go to www.dahon.com and buy yourself a folding bike. I've been able to get through those doors with a folded bike. YES it's true. There's no fighting the situation because those token clerk jobs are numbered. Get yourself a folding bike and you'll have access to all subway stations every day of the week.
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Old 11-22-04, 03:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by vincenzosi
ugh. You guys aren't listening.

If the ADA mattered, all the stations would be handicap accessible. They aren't. And closing token boths does not necessarily mean that the station will be inaccessible to the handicapped as the handicapped can't access some stations as they are right now anyway even if a token booth clerk is there.
I believe there is an exemption in the law for subway stations built decades ago. They only have to provide access to major stations. The city provides full handicap access on all buses so that was why the subways were given the exemption. The cost to provide access to all subway entrances would be in the billions so your only hope is to get the folder.
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Old 11-22-04, 03:32 PM   #8
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I'm too fat for a folder

Although I was 80 pounds heavier in January, (351), I don't think 271 is conducive to a folding bike...
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Old 11-22-04, 03:33 PM   #9
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When I cruised through NYC on my way south (Canada to Keywest), I muscled my bike over the turnstile thingy-- what a bear! Two transit cops watched me the whole time and didn't say boo.

Dave
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Old 11-22-04, 04:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bunabayashi
When I cruised through NYC on my way south (Canada to Keywest), I muscled my bike over the turnstile thingy-- what a bear! Two transit cops watched me the whole time and didn't say boo.

Dave
The problem is that with the booth closures comes the replacement of the turnstiles with turnstyle gates. I really don't think a bike will fit through one of those (I've never tried).
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Old 11-22-04, 05:35 PM   #11
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That's the actual plan; those revolving door type turnstiles in which case you ain't gettin' anything through there that ain't a person.
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Old 11-23-04, 07:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincenzosi
In the hub-bub about the token booth closures at various subway stations, we seem to have not made our voices loud enough.

How do you get a bike on the New York City Subway if there are no token booth clerks? Without someone to open the service gate, you cannot get a bike on the subway. This same service gate problem holds for bikes, strollers, shopping carts, and everything else people get onto the subways with.

The answer from the MTA thus far: "We're investigating solutions."

How much do you want to bet the MTA goes ahead with the closures first, then comes up with some half-assed solution to the problem?
Move in Montreal. Period

Sapolin
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Old 11-23-04, 08:30 AM   #13
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No thanks. I'll stay put.
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Old 11-23-04, 08:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
The problem is that with the booth closures comes the replacement of the turnstiles with turnstyle gates. I really don't think a bike will fit through one of those (I've never tried).
I'm curious - can a wheelchair get through?

If not, your answer may be that this is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

I have no clue whether or not the Ny subway trains themselves are w/c accessible.

The Washington Metro certainly is, as is the Denver light rail system.
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Old 11-23-04, 08:46 AM   #15
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I think Dahon.steve figured out why that won't work:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
I believe there is an exemption in the law for subway stations built decades ago. They only have to provide access to major stations. The city provides full handicap access on all buses so that was why the subways were given the exemption. The cost to provide access to all subway entrances would be in the billions so your only hope is to get the folder.
There ya go... It sounds reasonable, and he is a local, so he's probably right...
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Old 11-23-04, 09:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
I believe there is an exemption in the law for subway stations built decades ago. They only have to provide access to major stations. The city provides full handicap access on all buses so that was why the subways were given the exemption. The cost to provide access to all subway entrances would be in the billions so your only hope is to get the folder.
There are no "exemptions" granted under the ADA. There is no provision for that under the law, nor any agency designated to provide such exemptions.

There are provisions for unreasonable costs, but any substantial remodeling or updating requires that the new construction be accessible. There are extensions allowed but they must be limited in time, and must be applied for.


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Extension for extraordinarily expensive structural changes.--
The Secretary may extend the 3-year period under subparagraph (A) up
to a 30-year period for key stations in a rapid rail or light rail
system which stations need extraordinarily expensive structural
changes to, or replacement of, existing facilities; except that by
the last day of the 20th year following the date of the enactment of
this Act at least 2/3 of such key stations must be readily
accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities.
The ADA was effective as of July 26, 1990.

There are some special provisions for how "historical landmarks" type buildings can meet accessibility requirements, and there are also different standards for private and public buildings and programs.

If the subway was accessible at one time and the removal of a person to open the gates resulted in a person with a disability not being able to access the subway, this would be a direct violation of the ADA, period. I am not personally familiar with the NY subway system, never having been there!

Last edited by DnvrFox; 11-23-04 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 11-23-04, 11:08 PM   #17
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I believe the government claims that ADA does not apply to them. It has gone to court a couple of times, and I don't remember the outcome. If they found it applies to government, then removing the attendants clearly violates the law as you can find some dissablitly that causes a problem. Bigger gates would work but then 5 people would squeeze through together. Which would be fun to watch on a level. I can just picture 20 college students packing into a handicap accesible entrance to get through on one fair.
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Old 11-24-04, 03:07 AM   #18
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It sucks that you can't get through, where you want, but if some of the stations have access for the disabled, possibly you could ride an extra 1/2 to 1 mile to get to one.
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Old 11-24-04, 07:42 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by collegeskier
I believe the government claims that ADA does not apply to them. It has gone to court a couple of times, and I don't remember the outcome. If they found it applies to government, then removing the attendants clearly violates the law as you can find some dissablitly that causes a problem. Bigger gates would work but then 5 people would squeeze through together. Which would be fun to watch on a level. I can just picture 20 college students packing into a handicap accesible entrance to get through on one fair.
Sorry, not correct.

The issue is whether or not the ADA applies to state governments, not cities or municpalities or other government issues, and then only in a very limited sense, applying to employment (Title I) only. The Garrett decision resulted in: "What this means is that the result of the Garrett decision only impacts state employment practices. All other facets of state government activity are unaffected by this opinion."

For an excellent read on this - see:

http://www.foxrob.com/pleadings/Arti...t%20points.pdf

written by my son and daughter-in-law, nationally known ADA attorneys.

In 1993, I was the principal investigator for a government exploratory project, "The Consumer's Guide to the Americans with Disabilities Act."

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Old 11-24-04, 07:59 AM   #20
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A related thing happened to me two days ago.

I went to the subway station en route back home from a friend's Brooklyn apartment. The revolving door gate kept rejecting my Metrocard over and over and over again.

I went to the next one and it said "JUST USED". Then the train came and I wound up missing it. If a clerk had been there I would have been able to just let the person know and they could have buzzed me through.

As far as the subways and handicap facilities, the MTA has a page up addressing the issue here.

Here's an excerpt, which isn't that comforting:

Quote:
In improving services to individuals with disabilities, the MTA identified stations and facilities where compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) would benefit the most people, analyzing such factors as high ridership, transfer points, and service to major areas of activity. These stations were given priority in our station-renovation program. We are continuing to expand accessibility features to more and more locations.

The MTA network has more than 75 fully accessible subway and commuter rail stations
For a system with an annual 1.4 billon ridership using approximately 500 train stations, having less than a fifth of these equipped to handle people with needs is unacceptable in my opinion.
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Old 11-24-04, 09:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konakazi
As far as the subways and handicap facilities, the MTA has a page up addressing the issue here.

In improving services to individuals with disabilities, the MTA identified stations and facilities where compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) would benefit the most people, analyzing such factors as high ridership, transfer points, and service to major areas of activity. These stations were given priority in our station-renovation program. We are continuing to expand accessibility features to more and more locations.

The MTA network has more than 75 fully accessible subway and commuter rail stations
The cost of digging up one station in New York City for handicap construction would be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The New York City MTA is operating at a LOSS each year and does not have the extra 250 billion for station renovations. The MTA is working on providing stations with access for everyone but will probably take another 100 years before this is completed. To force the MTA with this massive construction project would bankrupt the system. In fact, overall station conditions outside of Manhattan are horrible.

The buses are used frequently by handicap and they are given priority seating over anyone else.
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Old 11-24-04, 11:00 AM   #22
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Just to be clear for people who aren't in NYC:
The traditional turnstiles look like this:
The new ones are like this:
Notice the guy with the bike stuck in there.
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Old 11-24-04, 11:43 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
The cost of digging up one station in New York City for handicap construction would be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The New York City MTA is operating at a LOSS each year and does not have the extra 250 billion for station renovations. The MTA is working on providing stations with access for everyone but will probably take another 100 years before this is completed. To force the MTA with this massive construction project would bankrupt the system. In fact, overall station conditions outside of Manhattan are horrible.

The buses are used frequently by handicap and they are given priority seating over anyone else.
Know what?

There were folks in wheelchairs and with other disabilities when they built the subway!

Over the years, architects have been at the forefront in designing buildings, subways and other edifices that were NOT accessible. In fact, Architects have been the worst enemies of individuals with disabilities.

That they were not accommodated in the design is not the fault of individuals with disabilities today.

When folks can't afford 2-3 SUV's in their $350 - $750,000 home - and when we aren't paying 5 billion dollars a day for a war in which we have no business, then I will entertain objections related to costs.

Otherwise, get on with following the law.
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Old 11-24-04, 12:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DnvrFox
Know what?

There were folks in wheelchairs and with other disabilities when they built the subway!
And? What that has to do with now is beyond me. There was also no requirement to accomodate people in the year 1904, so pointing out that people have always lived with wheelchairs is like saying people have always been fat.

Quote:
Over the years, architects have been at the forefront in designing buildings, subways and other edifices that were NOT accessible. In fact, Architects have been the worst enemies of individuals with disabilities.
You'll get no argument from me. People have always been more concerned with appearance than functionality.

Quote:
That they were not accommodated in the design is not the fault of individuals with disabilities today.
Fault is not the problem here. It's nobody who lives in the world right now's fault, and it'll cost more than New York State can afford to fix all at once, hence the more than generous accomodations on buses including reserved seating, and kneeling buses.

Quote:
When folks can't afford 2-3 SUV's in their $350 - $750,000 home - and when we aren't paying 5 billion dollars a day for a war in which we have no business, then I will entertain objections related to costs.
This is just plain class warfare bs. What people can afford has nothing to do with this argument. What kind of bike do you ride? If it's more than mine cost me, you have no right to ride it. And as for a war, well, when last I checked, NY wasn't at war with Iraq. I could be wrong about that, but I believe New York is a state not a country. Your argument there has about as much weight as saying something like "There's no reason a Saudi Prince should have a palace while there's a homeless person living in Newark." Some people have more money than others. Some people ride $3,000 bikes while other people ride $100 Walmart specials. It's just the way it is.

Quote:
Otherwise, get on with following the law.
Let's go back in time. Let's have the people in 1904 follow a law written seventy years later.

The MTA is making efforts. Remember, however, that the MTA operates at a deficit almost every year, just raised fares, and is talking about doing it all over again and then making a fair increase every two years standard operating procedure. And this is just to cover current costs and reconstruction, not the added costs of retrofiting 500 stations.

Where's the money gonna come from?

How much are you going to help cover what my subway fare doesn't?

There is definitely room for improvement in this city with regards to the subway system and accessibility, but don't kid yourself into thinking wheelchair bound folks are left high and dry with no way around and don't think that it's just something they can budget in and start doing.
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Old 11-24-04, 12:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DnvrFox

Know what?

There were folks in wheelchairs and with other disabilities when they built the subway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Your response
And? What that has to do with now is beyond me. There was also no requirement to accomodate people in the year 1904, so pointing out that people have always lived with wheelchairs is like saying people have always been fat
If you can't figure THAT out, then I guess there IS no hope!

Simply stated:

1. There were folks in wheel chairs and with other disabilities when the subway was built.

2. If they had accommodated those folks (law or not) at the time they were built, we would not be having this discussion today.

Clear enough, or do I need to express it in simpler language?

As for the rest of your post:

1. The law does NOT require them to do it all now, as you so incorrectly state. There are time extensions allowed, which I clearly stated in my previous posts. Please read them.

2. New York receives a great deal of its transportation moneys from the US Government (the same government spending 5 billion per day on that nasty war). If the feds were not spending that money on the war, there might be more for other priorities. If you were not aware of how much of your transportation money comes from the feds, I'm sorry, but you are now educated.

3. Amazing how cities find money for stadiums, arenas, highways, high salaries, etc. It is a matter of priorities. Yes, it IS possible for the City of New York to assist the MTA in meeting the obligations under the law.

fini
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