Police "judgement" versus Law
09-08-11, 01:04 PM
#576
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Has anyone yet brought up that the crux of the matter is the motorists' right to drive faster than BikeMomTn's daughter, more urgently than her safety, and that the police have backed them up on that? If that were not so, a driver would simply slow to the daughter's speed without passing and that would be the end of it.
Yet much (most?) of that traffic is to the school isn't it? And the rest is hurrying through a school zone? It seems to me that for any motorist dropping off at school, they're going to have to stop and wait in line dropping off. Except for other vehicles passing or turning in it doesn't matter if they go 55 or 10 mph on a given stretch close to the school - they'll be in more or less the same place in line, dropping off at about the same time. There is no legitimate urgency nor right in other words. As for through traffic, are they passing through a school zone? If so they don't have any right either to expect a rapid through transit. Sometimes one person is right and everyone else is wrong regardless of how they feel about their rights and privileges.
Maybe this could be emphasized more somehow. If one kid on a bike poses a problem, then it means there's really an underlying problem with the traffic flow and enforcement, rather than the kid.
Yet much (most?) of that traffic is to the school isn't it? And the rest is hurrying through a school zone? It seems to me that for any motorist dropping off at school, they're going to have to stop and wait in line dropping off. Except for other vehicles passing or turning in it doesn't matter if they go 55 or 10 mph on a given stretch close to the school - they'll be in more or less the same place in line, dropping off at about the same time. There is no legitimate urgency nor right in other words. As for through traffic, are they passing through a school zone? If so they don't have any right either to expect a rapid through transit. Sometimes one person is right and everyone else is wrong regardless of how they feel about their rights and privileges.
Maybe this could be emphasized more somehow. If one kid on a bike poses a problem, then it means there's really an underlying problem with the traffic flow and enforcement, rather than the kid.
09-08-11, 01:09 PM
#577
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And CPS will close the case when they want, not when I want them to. You obviously don't know them very well do you? I am very well aware I will get more CPS calls, once people figure out the bicycle won't draw them out they will figure out random things to get them out here. Yes people are that petty.
And, it seems the problem is not the bicyclist rights, but other underlying issues.
You fail to understand that the more the Chief of Police changes his story the more media attention it draws and the more complicated it becomes. I have changed her route slightly because of the media attention this has received.
I am failing to see how you say the Mayor is siding with me - he wont talk to me!! he won't return my calls, email or anything. So how in the world is his siding with anything at all??? And as for another stop, yes I see if very likely actually.
Another stop based on what? CPS saying there's no problem? The mayor saying there's no problem? Stopped on what basis.
Based on your edit, it appears there are other real issues, and the cycling is not really an issue. I'd advise getting those issues resolved prior to worrying about cycling.
09-08-11, 01:11 PM
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Has anyone yet brought up that the crux of the matter is the motorists' right to drive faster than BikeMomTn's daughter, more urgently than her safety, and that the police have backed them up on that? If that were not so, a driver would simply slow to the daughter's speed without passing and that would be the end of it.
Yet much (most?) of that traffic is to the school isn't it? And the rest is hurrying through a school zone? It seems to me that for any motorist dropping off at school, they're going to have to stop and wait in line dropping off. Except for other vehicles passing or turning in it doesn't matter if they go 55 or 10 mph on a given stretch close to the school - they'll be in more or less the same place in line, dropping off at about the same time. There is no legitimate urgency nor right in other words. As for through traffic, are they passing through a school zone? If so they don't have any right either to expect a rapid through transit. Sometimes one person is right and everyone else is wrong regardless of how they feel about their rights and privileges.
Maybe this could be emphasized more somehow. If one kid on a bike poses a problem, then it means there's really an underlying problem with the traffic flow and enforcement, rather than the kid.
Yet much (most?) of that traffic is to the school isn't it? And the rest is hurrying through a school zone? It seems to me that for any motorist dropping off at school, they're going to have to stop and wait in line dropping off. Except for other vehicles passing or turning in it doesn't matter if they go 55 or 10 mph on a given stretch close to the school - they'll be in more or less the same place in line, dropping off at about the same time. There is no legitimate urgency nor right in other words. As for through traffic, are they passing through a school zone? If so they don't have any right either to expect a rapid through transit. Sometimes one person is right and everyone else is wrong regardless of how they feel about their rights and privileges.
Maybe this could be emphasized more somehow. If one kid on a bike poses a problem, then it means there's really an underlying problem with the traffic flow and enforcement, rather than the kid.
once people figure out the bicycle won't draw them out they will figure out random things to get them out here. Yes people are that petty.
09-08-11, 01:25 PM
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On the other hand, people and organizations that do have access to lawyers love folks like you who advise people who deal with them that they don't need lawyers.
__________________
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
09-08-11, 01:31 PM
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So, since you've changed her route, and the issue was the route she was riding, no more issue, correct?
09-08-11, 01:37 PM
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Has anyone yet brought up that the crux of the matter is the motorists' right to drive faster than BikeMomTn's daughter, more urgently than her safety, and that the police have backed them up on that? If that were not so, a driver would simply slow to the daughter's speed without passing and that would be the end of it.
Yet much (most?) of that traffic is to the school isn't it? And the rest is hurrying through a school zone? It seems to me that for any motorist dropping off at school, they're going to have to stop and wait in line dropping off. Except for other vehicles passing or turning in it doesn't matter if they go 55 or 10 mph on a given stretch close to the school - they'll be in more or less the same place in line, dropping off at about the same time. There is no legitimate urgency nor right in other words. As for through traffic, are they passing through a school zone? If so they don't have any right either to expect a rapid through transit. Sometimes one person is right and everyone else is wrong regardless of how they feel about their rights and privileges.
Maybe this could be emphasized more somehow. If one kid on a bike poses a problem, then it means there's really an underlying problem with the traffic flow and enforcement, rather than the kid.
Yet much (most?) of that traffic is to the school isn't it? And the rest is hurrying through a school zone? It seems to me that for any motorist dropping off at school, they're going to have to stop and wait in line dropping off. Except for other vehicles passing or turning in it doesn't matter if they go 55 or 10 mph on a given stretch close to the school - they'll be in more or less the same place in line, dropping off at about the same time. There is no legitimate urgency nor right in other words. As for through traffic, are they passing through a school zone? If so they don't have any right either to expect a rapid through transit. Sometimes one person is right and everyone else is wrong regardless of how they feel about their rights and privileges.
Maybe this could be emphasized more somehow. If one kid on a bike poses a problem, then it means there's really an underlying problem with the traffic flow and enforcement, rather than the kid.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
09-08-11, 01:37 PM
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At what point does this become defamation? Seriously
the Elizabeththon Star headline reads "Girl can still ride bike to school, police recommend safer route" (by the way, the Elizabeththon Star link is gone- file not found) and the caption reads "Ten-year-old Cynthia Tryon can still ride her bike to school. There was some confusion on the matter after the Elizabeththon Police Department spoke with her mother about finding a safer route to school."
yet fox news states
"The Elizabethton Police Department told Teresa Tryon that her young daughter is not allowed to ride her bike unsupervised to and from Harold McCormick Elementary School because the roads have too much traffic."We're just looking out for the safety of the child," Elizabethton Police Chief Matt Bailey told FoxNews.com. "It’s a busy surface street. It’s not a highway by definition, but it's a very busy road." and "Bailey told FoxNews.com that police have notified the District Attorney's Office and that Tryon could potentially face child neglect charges if the situation continued.
the Elizabeththon Star headline reads "Girl can still ride bike to school, police recommend safer route" (by the way, the Elizabeththon Star link is gone- file not found) and the caption reads "Ten-year-old Cynthia Tryon can still ride her bike to school. There was some confusion on the matter after the Elizabeththon Police Department spoke with her mother about finding a safer route to school."
yet fox news states
"The Elizabethton Police Department told Teresa Tryon that her young daughter is not allowed to ride her bike unsupervised to and from Harold McCormick Elementary School because the roads have too much traffic."We're just looking out for the safety of the child," Elizabethton Police Chief Matt Bailey told FoxNews.com. "It’s a busy surface street. It’s not a highway by definition, but it's a very busy road." and "Bailey told FoxNews.com that police have notified the District Attorney's Office and that Tryon could potentially face child neglect charges if the situation continued.
09-08-11, 01:37 PM
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I've been IN both government and law enforcement...and had more dealings with CPS, CSEA and other agencies than I care to remember...anyone who doesn't think they need the advice of a lawyer is a fool, plain and simple....and I hate lawyers, for the most part. The only bigger fool would be the person who listens to the advice of some guy in the internet that recommends not obtaining sound legal advice from someone trained and licensed in the law...a lawyer - especially where their kids are concerned.
On the other hand, people and organizations that do have access to lawyers love folks like you who advise people who deal with them that they don't need lawyers.
On the other hand, people and organizations that do have access to lawyers love folks like you who advise people who deal with them that they don't need lawyers.
If there are any criminal proceedings, yes, a lawyer is needed. However, there's no criminal proceedings here. And, she can feel free to retain a lawyer, but from what I'm reading here, cycling isn't the real issue:
once people figure out the bicycle won't draw them out they will figure out random things to get them out here. Yes people are that petty.
Let me try to state this out in behalf of BikeMomTn, okay? She said that her route to school is not an issue REGARDLESS of whether the police HAVE interfered with her 10-year-old child going to and from school or NOT. If I recall in the early parts of the thread, BikeMomTn said that she does not have any problems dealing with lots of traffic in midst to school with the route the child are so used to before the police officer took her home (sorry BikeMomTn, this is getting all over my head as I'll need to read and type down all the notes that I'll gather from 20 pages of thread -- geez -- so please correct me if I'm wrong).
So, changing the route would be the easiest course.
09-08-11, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BikeMomTn
once people figure out the bicycle won't draw them out they will figure out random things to get them out here. Yes people are that petty.
09-08-11, 01:48 PM
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I'm done with this thread. Apparently, point out the obvious is not welcomed here.
09-08-11, 01:52 PM
#586
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It seems to me that there is a very large community of cyclists who are giving the local police heat over this.
From what Google shows me, I can't imagine a much better neighborhood of low volume streets for my own kid to bike to school. In the suburbs where I live, most schools are sited on high speed 4-lane roads with heavy traffic volumes. Only the oldest schools in the oldest parts of town are located on such friendly street networks for cycling. Sure, drivers have to slow down and sometimes wait to pass, but so what? Such streets are often full of kids on bikes.
09-08-11, 02:02 PM
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OK right now I am truly feeling like Uber is attempting to argue to the point of closing the post. I myself would appreciate that not to happen so I politely request that we do not continue to argue and banter with Uber. I understand this is a community, however I would hate to see this thread closed because of one single individual so please..please please even, do not continue to banter points with Uber.
For clarification purposes I will restate this...because of the media attention, and not wanting to put my daughter at risk I changed her route slightly. In simple terms because of everyone knowing her route I felt it would be safer to modify it slightly for the time being.
Now then back to the cycling aspect of this. I am not entirely sure what to make the differences between stories from the Chief of Police. There are no laws being violated in any way shape or form, it is one officers judgement and CPS has verbally advised me that they have no problems with her route. I went and rode complete alternative routes and come to the same conclusion that the route she has been taking is indeed the best route possible. I would love input on this because some of the aspects I looked at included: 1. The width of the road 2. Blind spots including crests of hills 3. Incline of hills 4. visibility 5. viable hazards.
The 2 alternative routes are small thing narrow streets with trash cans (I guess it was trash day), parked cars blind hill crests and many visibility hazards. Granted there is almost no traffic on the roads however - the danger themselves make me uncomfortable with the route.
I am alternatively considering red blinkies on her helmet for a upper and lower LOOKY sign to also encourage safety.
Now then moving forward, I spoke with the principal at the school today regarding children riding/walking to school today since National Walk to School day is just under a month away. I believe this day would be an excellent starting point to show how walking school buses and bicycle trains can be useful for students. I would love some suggestions as to how to go about this.
The moderators have warned us many times and it almost appears (my opinion) it is actually Uber's attempt to close the thread. Please do not let this person suceed
I called the Mayors office at 4:04 and left a message with the receptionist (he was on the other line)
I called Police Chief Bailey at 4:07 and the secretary asked who was calling, I gave my name - She said "hold a moment" and I was put directly through to voice mail.
For clarification purposes I will restate this...because of the media attention, and not wanting to put my daughter at risk I changed her route slightly. In simple terms because of everyone knowing her route I felt it would be safer to modify it slightly for the time being.
Now then back to the cycling aspect of this. I am not entirely sure what to make the differences between stories from the Chief of Police. There are no laws being violated in any way shape or form, it is one officers judgement and CPS has verbally advised me that they have no problems with her route. I went and rode complete alternative routes and come to the same conclusion that the route she has been taking is indeed the best route possible. I would love input on this because some of the aspects I looked at included: 1. The width of the road 2. Blind spots including crests of hills 3. Incline of hills 4. visibility 5. viable hazards.
The 2 alternative routes are small thing narrow streets with trash cans (I guess it was trash day), parked cars blind hill crests and many visibility hazards. Granted there is almost no traffic on the roads however - the danger themselves make me uncomfortable with the route.
I am alternatively considering red blinkies on her helmet for a upper and lower LOOKY sign to also encourage safety.
Now then moving forward, I spoke with the principal at the school today regarding children riding/walking to school today since National Walk to School day is just under a month away. I believe this day would be an excellent starting point to show how walking school buses and bicycle trains can be useful for students. I would love some suggestions as to how to go about this.
The moderators have warned us many times and it almost appears (my opinion) it is actually Uber's attempt to close the thread. Please do not let this person suceed
I called the Mayors office at 4:04 and left a message with the receptionist (he was on the other line)
I called Police Chief Bailey at 4:07 and the secretary asked who was calling, I gave my name - She said "hold a moment" and I was put directly through to voice mail.
Last edited by BikeMomTn; 09-08-11 at 02:13 PM. Reason: contact with officials
09-08-11, 02:12 PM
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As i said, I'm done with the thread. Id appreciate you not questioning my motives when i point out obvious alternatives. Thanks.
09-08-11, 04:49 PM
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09-08-11, 06:05 PM
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There are no laws being broken, and if CPS has no problems with it, this story should be closed.
09-08-11, 06:07 PM
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That isn't why it is still open. There are no laws being broken however is appears the police chief is attempting to back pedal into getting his way. https://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/07/tennessee-police-mother-in-dispute-over-10-year-old-child-riding-bike-to-school/?test=latestnews
No idea whats going to happen yet with this.
No idea whats going to happen yet with this.
09-09-11, 12:49 AM
#592
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wsbob I must ask you - if these streets are so unsafe for traffic, why are they not fixed? Better question yet if the route is unsafe in an area around a school why is there not a rule that children cannot ride or walk? Why has the principle of the school not spoke to me about her safety? Better yet, if I was indeed placing her in danger why has cps verbally advised me they have no problems with her route or ride? Last question I have - if the police officer is correct why can't the Chief just stand behind his officer and present factual data such as traffic flow information for the road in question rather then embellish the story to lend credibility?
I will admit you are correct that outside of google earth you cannot see the area itself. You can get a street view of her school here https://g.co/maps/ruyvy she rides straight up this road as you see it. I have absolutely nothing to hide, my story has remained consistent because it is true. At the very top of the hill shown, the road wides about a foor and a half. From the top of that hill she has 3 blocks before she has to come across a yard (with permission) and into our apartment complex itself.
The original problems (as a parent) I foresaw were actually on the school property with the amount of pedestrians. Simple solution was to walk her bike through that congestion. I have lived in the same residence for 6 years now and depending upon your view of heavy traffic this road could be considered to have heavy traffic. I myself regularly travel the street and on average *yes I have been counting* pass between 5-9 cars going both ways within a 10 minute period. And yes that is during peak time. I rode home with her last week actually and in our travel (both ways) we encountered 8 cars once we left the intersection where the school is located.
her route she has to walk her bike off school property and cross 2 crosswalks (walking her bike for safety). She then walks up about 2 houses to get away from the traffic at the school. If you notice the school...the traffic lanes are ONE direction. They must exit at the bottom which a ways down. At this point she mounts and rides. When she reaches the top of the hill the road widens out about 18 inches (why I have no idea). Before she is over the hill where she is unseen she is riding in that area so unless someone is driving in the grass they most likely aren't going to hit her. If you look at the street view the road is straight. Totally straight.
My position on this is clear, my daughter will continue to ride. The police made their report to child protective services who has verbally advised me my daughter can ride (actually advised me of this TWICE now). The cps worker, my daughter and I discussed the route carefully. She is aware of the route and found no problems. The obvious conditions being met of course. These conditions include: 1. she is wearing her helmet. 2. She is riding during daylight hours. 3. She is not riding in an unsafe manner. No laws are being broken on the city, county, state or federal level. The police cannot enforce a judgement. They enforce laws and since none of being violated there is nothing to substantiate any further action on their part.
I am working with SRTS and Bike Walk Tennessee to bring a longer term resolution to this for other children and parents for a longer term situation. However, in the mean time as long as it is daylight when she has to leave, weather is appropriate (I don't allow her to ride in rain, fog, snow, ect) and she conducts herself in an appropriate manner I will allow her to ride.
On a final note wsbob, I appreciate your position in the matter; and I applaud your discussion on this matter. It is a difficult decision to decide when your child is old enough to have different privileges (cycling independently included) and it is a gray area realistically. My other children ride the bus because they lack the maturity to ride or walk to school and I admit this. I have to decide what is best for each child looking at factors including their strength and weakness, their sensory and perception ability (important skills for defensive cycling) and maturity level as a whole. With my daughter, I believe her abilities are strong enough to justify her riding. Moreover, she wants to ride, I am in no means forcing her. She is aware this is a privilege not to be abused or it will be taken away. She is also aware that I ask people to check on her when possible so she never knows when someone will be watching.
Believe me wsbob this was not a decision I made lightly.
I will admit you are correct that outside of google earth you cannot see the area itself. You can get a street view of her school here https://g.co/maps/ruyvy she rides straight up this road as you see it. I have absolutely nothing to hide, my story has remained consistent because it is true. At the very top of the hill shown, the road wides about a foor and a half. From the top of that hill she has 3 blocks before she has to come across a yard (with permission) and into our apartment complex itself.
The original problems (as a parent) I foresaw were actually on the school property with the amount of pedestrians. Simple solution was to walk her bike through that congestion. I have lived in the same residence for 6 years now and depending upon your view of heavy traffic this road could be considered to have heavy traffic. I myself regularly travel the street and on average *yes I have been counting* pass between 5-9 cars going both ways within a 10 minute period. And yes that is during peak time. I rode home with her last week actually and in our travel (both ways) we encountered 8 cars once we left the intersection where the school is located.
her route she has to walk her bike off school property and cross 2 crosswalks (walking her bike for safety). She then walks up about 2 houses to get away from the traffic at the school. If you notice the school...the traffic lanes are ONE direction. They must exit at the bottom which a ways down. At this point she mounts and rides. When she reaches the top of the hill the road widens out about 18 inches (why I have no idea). Before she is over the hill where she is unseen she is riding in that area so unless someone is driving in the grass they most likely aren't going to hit her. If you look at the street view the road is straight. Totally straight.
My position on this is clear, my daughter will continue to ride. The police made their report to child protective services who has verbally advised me my daughter can ride (actually advised me of this TWICE now). The cps worker, my daughter and I discussed the route carefully. She is aware of the route and found no problems. The obvious conditions being met of course. These conditions include: 1. she is wearing her helmet. 2. She is riding during daylight hours. 3. She is not riding in an unsafe manner. No laws are being broken on the city, county, state or federal level. The police cannot enforce a judgement. They enforce laws and since none of being violated there is nothing to substantiate any further action on their part.
I am working with SRTS and Bike Walk Tennessee to bring a longer term resolution to this for other children and parents for a longer term situation. However, in the mean time as long as it is daylight when she has to leave, weather is appropriate (I don't allow her to ride in rain, fog, snow, ect) and she conducts herself in an appropriate manner I will allow her to ride.
On a final note wsbob, I appreciate your position in the matter; and I applaud your discussion on this matter. It is a difficult decision to decide when your child is old enough to have different privileges (cycling independently included) and it is a gray area realistically. My other children ride the bus because they lack the maturity to ride or walk to school and I admit this. I have to decide what is best for each child looking at factors including their strength and weakness, their sensory and perception ability (important skills for defensive cycling) and maturity level as a whole. With my daughter, I believe her abilities are strong enough to justify her riding. Moreover, she wants to ride, I am in no means forcing her. She is aware this is a privilege not to be abused or it will be taken away. She is also aware that I ask people to check on her when possible so she never knows when someone will be watching.
Believe me wsbob this was not a decision I made lightly.
"wsbob I must ask you - if these streets are so unsafe for traffic, why are they not fixed?..." BikeMomTn
There's lots of reasons streets aren't fixed, or redesigned to be safe for riding bikes amongst motor vehicle traffic. Lack of money is a big reason. Lots of cities and towns have streets and roads that need to be fixed, upgraded or redesigned for safer use by a diverse range of modes of travel. Some neighborhoods go for years and decades waiting for improvements while other parts of town get improvement after improvement after improvement.
In an earlier comment, I think I mentioned that Portland, Oregon still has some neighborhood streets without sidewalks. Some of its streets are still gravel...with potholes, of course. I live in a burb 6 or 7 miles from Portland. My town, Beaverton, population 90,000, has some streets...heavily used, narrow streets that don't have sidewalks or bike lanes, not on the outskirts of town, but in central Beaverton.
Ask your neighborhood association, or the group in your neighborhood that's most similar to a neighborhood association, why the streets on your daughter's route to school aren't equipped with sidewalks and bike lanes. None of us commenting here, is likely in as good a position as your are, to get the scoop on this.
Ask your neighborhood association, or the group in your neighborhood that's most similar to a neighborhood association, why the streets on your daughter's route to school aren't equipped with sidewalks and bike lanes. None of us commenting here, is likely in as good a position as your are, to get the scoop on this.
It's great if CPS is prepared to work with the PD to resolve issues with your daughter's route to school so she and others of similar age and ability can possibly ride to school on their own. Can the CPS order the PD to allow your daughter to ride her bike to school on a a route one of the PD's officers has observed the girl riding, a route which in the officers opinion (which the chief apparently backs up.) the girl shouldn't be riding unsupervised?
I kind of doubt it, while readily admitting I don't know the procedures involved in Tennessee state or Elizabethton officials conducting their business and resolving issues like this one. I'd imagine though, that each agency likely takes their orders from a legal official higher up, such as a DA or the State AG, rather than each other directly. To those higher offices, you or some group could pit the question of your girl riding the route to school unsupervised despite the PD being of the opinion that's it's not safe for her to do so.
Waiting on those folks for who knows how long, to haggle and make up their minds isn't something I'd want to do for an issue like this. Not when there's simpler, easier remedies, such as adult led biketrains that can be organized. Sure...the routes on your 10yr old daughter's route to school should be fixed so she can ride to school all by herself. Lot's of people's neighborhoods streets should also be fixed. Waiting around for that to happen...your daughter could be 25 and have her own kids before those streets are fixed, if ever.
The neighbors getting together, having a potluck, making their own plans to lead their kids on bikes to school is likely to be a much faster, more effective means of accomplishing the basic objective, which is allowing your daughter and fellow students in her neighborhood, to ride their bikes to school on the route in question. The cops aren't going to bust you if your daughter is in a group of 'X' number of kids on bikes being led and supervised by traffic savvy, responsible adults on bikes.
09-09-11, 05:05 AM
#593
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BikeMomTn: I admire you for sticking to your guns and fighting the good fight. Good luck and keep us updated.
09-09-11, 05:09 AM
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I really wonder, what color is the sky in your world?
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
09-09-11, 05:12 AM
#595
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If anyone would like to help BikeMomTn afford the services of an attorney, please see this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/766472-BF-Member-needs-our-help
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
09-09-11, 07:47 AM
#596
aka: Mike J.
Key phrase: "it was unsafe for her to walk or ride " .
So, perhaps you need to ask if it is okay for her to walk to a neighbor's house alone, or to the local store, or even to the mailbox alone and unattended. If you get clarification on this issue then you will have your defense, or your option.
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so listen, or not, just an opinion. Have a nice day.
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09-09-11, 07:55 AM
#597
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I didn't read it all, but that is part of the basic problem - the police don't think it's unsafe to walk unattended home, to the bus stop, or other "normal" places, but being unattended on a bike is "unsafe." Then, when pushed on this hypocrisy, they change their story and blame the child for riding unsafely in the street. So, whenever pushed on one area or the next (i.e., unattended or bike safety), they simply switch explanations.
It appears that the officer's issue isn't with the bicycle riding, it is more with the child going to and from school alone and on her own.
Key phrase: "it was unsafe for her to walk or ride " .
So, perhaps you need to ask if it is okay for her to walk to a neighbor's house alone, or to the local store, or even to the mailbox alone and unattended. If you get clarification on this issue then you will have your defense, or your option.
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so listen, or not, just an opinion. Have a nice day.
Key phrase: "it was unsafe for her to walk or ride " .
So, perhaps you need to ask if it is okay for her to walk to a neighbor's house alone, or to the local store, or even to the mailbox alone and unattended. If you get clarification on this issue then you will have your defense, or your option.
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so listen, or not, just an opinion. Have a nice day.
09-09-11, 08:08 AM
#598
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It appears that the officer's issue isn't with the bicycle riding, it is more with the child going to and from school alone and on her own.
Key phrase: "it was unsafe for her to walk or ride " .
So, perhaps you need to ask if it is okay for her to walk to a neighbor's house alone, or to the local store, or even to the mailbox alone and unattended. If you get clarification on this issue then you will have your defense, or your option.
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so listen, or not, just an opinion. Have a nice day.
Key phrase: "it was unsafe for her to walk or ride " .
So, perhaps you need to ask if it is okay for her to walk to a neighbor's house alone, or to the local store, or even to the mailbox alone and unattended. If you get clarification on this issue then you will have your defense, or your option.
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so listen, or not, just an opinion. Have a nice day.
09-09-11, 08:09 AM
#599
----
If anyone would like to help BikeMomTn afford the services of an attorney, please see this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/766472-BF-Member-needs-our-help
Bottom line. Read the thread through. Make a decision about how you feel about this situation- there's plenty of info about it in here and, if you feel compelled to assist this woman and her daughter, put your money where your mouth is.
At this point it would seem she needs, and would prefer, encouragement and support but doesn't need any more advice from internet experts but she does need the advice of a local attorney.
09-09-11, 08:25 AM
#600
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Let's keep this thread on topic.
CbadRider
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