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  1. #126
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Actually you are the one who has made the blanket statement that anyone who rides as you do would be totally safe in doing so. You've gone so far as to guaranteed that, even though no one not even our law makers can do so, but apparently you have some sort of "crystal ball" that allows you to guarantee that ANYONE who chooses to ride as you do will be safe in doing so.
    It's a blanket statement because it's true - ANYONE who rolls through a stop sign without a car approaching them cannot be hurt by a car. It's physically impossible.

  2. #127
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    The problem that I have with yours and people who like you feel...
    You are correct; "the problem" is one that YOU have.

  3. #128
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    The problem that I have with yours and people who like you feel that they should be able to substitute their judgement for what the law says is that as has been shown that people as a whole do not use good judgement.
    I guess I have more faith in humanity than you.

    Furthermore, people tend to lose their ability to make good judgments when they rely upon others to do it for them. You are a case in point - you refuse to admit that there is no safety hazard by rolling through a stop sign when no cars are present. You are simply incapable of making such a judgment because you rely on others to do it for you, and now you want others to relinquish their ability to apply commons sense. Sorry, but I'm not going down that road with you.

  4. #129
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazrSkutr View Post
    Let me preface this with a caution: I'm posting drunk ( 2 bottles of very good red wine with dinner prefaced by a nice Corona with lime).

    Too often I'm a negative participant on bikeforums (helmet wars etc.), so I just wanted to say that I love you both and if I were a woman I would have both of your babies. (Obviously not at the same time .... And I'm not a woman ... And ... ).

    Digital Cowboy: let it go. There's no proof that even if we were hyper-correct model citizens that motorists would view us in any more positive a light. In the hierarchy of rules governing our behavior personal ethics ought to trump laws every time. That's what makes for great Americans and for a great America.
    I agree that sadly there are too many motorists who think that no matter how legal and safe that a cyclist is operating that they still have no "business" being on "their" roads. See the officer from the Selz v. Trotwood case, where she thought that it was "unsafe" for a cyclist to be on Ohio's State Route 49. And also part of the problem are the cyclists who blow throw red lights and stop signs. As all they are doing is adding fuel to that argument.

    And as I forget who it was that said it, but by running red lights and stop signs as several here do, come the time that their judgement is in error and they end up getting hit by a car because they broke the law they are starting from a poor position and are not likely to collect for any damages or injuries that they incur and will more likely then not be held responsible for making the person who hit them whole.

    Just as Bob Mionske said in his article "Put A Lid On It" in Bicycling magazines Road Rights column. If a lidless cyclist is hit by a car their (the drivers lawyer) will argue that by not having worn a helmet that the cyclist contributed to their damages/injuries.

    So please explain to me why one would engage in a behavior that they know can and will more likely then not be used against them?
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  5. #130
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WPeabody View Post
    Had a person on a bike pass me and lecture me about stopping at a stop sign on a rec. trail, because of an intersection with cars approaching. She told me "all bicycles have right of way" jsut before she went across in front of an approaching car.
    Never mind that there were signs with yield and stop for cyclists at busy intersections crossing the trail. Seems a lot of motorists stopped when I came to an intersection, when they didn't have to, and I was already stopped.
    Told my kids, when they learned to ride bikes in the street, to follow traffic rules even if no one else is doing so, because if they got hit and had to go to court, or because of their accident insurance, they would not be at fault.

    The only exception I take is when crossing an intersection after stopping, is getting off the bike and pushing it, even if the sign tells me to. Kind of difficult to do on a trike, especially with loaded panniers. Ha.
    I see this all the time myself whenever I'm riding the rail-to-trails trail here in St. Pete. So far none of them have lectured me like that gal did you for stopping, and like you (or at least the section that I ride most often) there are four way stops for the street that the trail crosses as well as for the trail itself. Yet cyclist after cyclist will blow through the intersection most not even slowing their pace.
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  6. #131
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    ...and...

    ... there is the parade of hearses and ambulances to pick up the victims of stop sign running cyclists. Or not apparently.

    I'm certainly not a stop sign / red light running advocate, but some times they just aren't causing a problem.
    How do you know for sure that they are not causing a problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Really, you come to a complete stop? No motion, foot down (or at least foot dab)? If so I'm amazed. I don't know anyone who does that.
    Yes, I do. As I have said in other threads. If there is no cross traffic I'll do a trackstand at a stop sign and then continue, if there is cross traffic I'll unclip and wait for the cross traffic to clear and then proceed. Why is it so hard to comprehend that there are those who do stop for every red light and stop sign?

    Down here where I live we recently had a father beaten in front of his son for driving the speed limit. Both people were IIRC taking their children to school and this occurred in again IIRC in the schools parking lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    No. Consider this. I am a fairly cautious cyclist, but I am certain that on certain roads at certain times I am causing some motorists to seethe with rage by riding in a purely lawful manner. On my commute there are two sections of road that are short, but too narrow to share the lane, in those sections I will briefly take the lane until I'm through the narrows. Some following motorists get it, some honk and ride up very close to me, some stomp on the gas and make risky passes. I'm riding in a perfectly lawful way, Massachusetts is a full use of the lane state, but I am providing ammunition for those who think bicyclists should not be on the road at all. For such people, the very presence of a cyclist on the road is an affront. The effect of scofflaw cyclists in the PR game is in the noise. People will throw that at you, but a little bit of push back on the actual harm done, and the fact that all (okay most with the exception of Saint Digital_Cowboy) road users are rule breakers to some extent and that argument evaporates.

    Speedo
    I have acknowledge that sadly there are drivers who no matter how safely and legally we as cyclists ride are going to think/feel that we do not belong on "their" streets. That to me points to either an underlying emotional or mental problem that needs treating, or an over inflated sense of entitlement. And to one degree or another that is where tougher drivers education standards as well as enforcement of the existing laws will come in handy. An example of a change/improvement to drivers education is the oft mentioned desire to see it:

    a) be harder to get a license, one such idea having to show a real legitimate reason (other than connivance) to qualify sort of like applying for in a lot a states a concealed weapons permit one has to show a need not just a desire to have one
    b) require all driver license applicants to have to ride a bicycle as part of the education process

    Also as I have said there have been times when I've been riding north bound on a road with multiple lanes in both directions and have had motorists traveling southbound either yell at to "get on the sidewalk" or have honked at me aggressively. And had wished that either there was a LEO present to have observed it (not that I really hold out much hope that they would have acted on it) or that I had a video camera affixed to my bike to record such aggressive behavior.
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  7. #132
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    If there were no cars around to smash your brains, then it was a frivolous statement for the cop to make. If there were cars around, it's an inapplicable comparison for you to attempt.

    Why can't you admit what everyone else can clearly see - if the car is the safety hazard, then one of them must be present to pose the hazard.
    AS another member had pointed out (until they deleted their original post) there are times and places where small vehicles such as motorcycles can be hidden from view of those going through an intersection. So there are going to be times when even if one's judgement that said intersection is "clear" that an unexpected motorcycle, or small vehicle or even an animal can be hidden from view.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    It's a blanket statement because it's true - ANYONE who rolls through a stop sign without a car approaching them cannot be hurt by a car. It's physically impossible.
    Now, who is substituting their opinion for fact? Unless you have ridden on EVERY single road and ridden through EVERY single intersection in EVERY single city/state in the United States. You cannot say that that is a true statement. It is just your opinion that if all cyclists rode as you do that they'd be "safe." See the aforementioned thread about motorcycles being hidden from view for proof that this is just your opinion and is not a fact.

    And if you feel so strongly that cyclists shouldn't have to stop for every red light or stop sign then I strongly suggest that you petition the state of Texas to adopt the Idaho stop law.
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  8. #133
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    I guess I have more faith in humanity than you.

    Furthermore, people tend to lose their ability to make good judgments when they rely upon others to do it for them. You are a case in point - you refuse to admit that there is no safety hazard by rolling through a stop sign when no cars are present. You are simply incapable of making such a judgment because you rely on others to do it for you, and now you want others to relinquish their ability to apply commons sense. Sorry, but I'm not going down that road with you.
    As I have said before I have seen too many cyclists who run red lights/stop signs regardless of the amount of traffic present and when there is traffic present having close calls with said traffic.

    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.
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  9. #134
    Bourbon junkie ricebowl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post

    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.

  10. #135
    Senior Member
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    It seems there are many laws that require judgement. FRAP laws require the biker to make judgements about what is safe for example.

  11. #136
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    AS another member had pointed out (until they deleted their original post) there are times and places where small vehicles such as motorcycles can be hidden from view of those going through an intersection. So there are going to be times when even if one's judgement that said intersection is "clear" that an unexpected motorcycle, or small vehicle or even an animal can be hidden from view.
    Yes, there ARE times when it's not safe. However, there ARE times when sight is not obstructed and there are not hidden motorcycles, scooters, trolls, or UFOs.


    Now, who is substituting their opinion for fact? Unless you have ridden on EVERY single road and ridden through EVERY single intersection in EVERY single city/state in the United States. You cannot say that that is a true statement. It is just your opinion that if all cyclists rode as you do that they'd be "safe." See the aforementioned thread about motorcycles being hidden from view for proof that this is just your opinion and is not a fact.
    My, my. The old twisting of words to try to win an argument. I never said EVERY situation, now did I? Stop lying.

    You cannot get hit by a motorcycle, car, midget or elephant if none are approaching you. I GUARANTEE it.
    And if you feel so strongly that cyclists shouldn't have to stop for every red light or stop sign then I strongly suggest that you petition the state of Texas to adopt the Idaho stop law.
    And I strongly suggest that you stop strongly suggesting to others what to do.

  12. #137
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.
    And there you have it, ladies and gentleman.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.
    Don't most laws actually require people to exercise their judgement? Speed limits give you the max speed you can go on a road. However, at all times you are required to drive within the limits of conditions. If it is snowing you have to use judgement and common sense. If you cause an accident because you were going to fast for conditions you can still get a ticket for that besides the fact that you hit something or someone, even if you were below the speed limit. Yield signs give the user a lot of judgement, how big of a gap do you need to pull out? Unsure, the law doesn't state how large that gap has to be, and if it does you still have to make judgments on if it is actually that size.

    Isn't part of the point of judges and juries, to determine if the judgement made was actually a crime, or not? Sure, in the cases we are discussing with running stop signs and stop lights, its pretty black and white and the law doesn't require real judgement. To make the claim that no law requires judgement or common sense is silly.

  14. #139
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weshigh View Post
    Don't most laws actually require people to exercise their judgement? Speed limits give you the max speed you can go on a road. However, at all times you are required to drive within the limits of conditions. If it is snowing you have to use judgement and common sense. If you cause an accident because you were going to fast for conditions you can still get a ticket for that besides the fact that you hit something or someone, even if you were below the speed limit. Yield signs give the user a lot of judgement, how big of a gap do you need to pull out? Unsure, the law doesn't state how large that gap has to be, and if it does you still have to make judgments on if it is actually that size.

    Isn't part of the point of judges and juries, to determine if the judgement made was actually a crime, or not? Sure, in the cases we are discussing with running stop signs and stop lights, its pretty black and white and the law doesn't require real judgement. To make the claim that no law requires judgement or common sense is silly.
    All true, and it is a silly question. What he's really trying to ask is when is it legal to do something illegal, which is a nonsensical question because the only correct answer is never - technically, it's never legal to do something illegal.

    Even in an extreme emergency when someone is dying, you still have to break the law when speeding to a hospital and a policeman has the legal authority to ticket you for exceeding the speed limit. That's one reason, as you correctly point out, that the police and judges have some discretion. But, in the black and white world of Digital Cowboy where laws and semantics trump common sense and good judgment, the only acceptable answer is that it is never legal to do something illegal.

    I wonder if DC would even admit that the ethics of saving a life trumps his mandate of always following the law. My guess is that he would break the law, but I'm not sure he would admit it in this discussion, because then he will be forced to draw a line - an arbitrary line based on his personal judgment - when it's okay to break the law. As such, he could no longer hide behind the law for the moral authority of his position.

  15. #140
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    Yes, there ARE times when it's not safe. However, there ARE times when sight is not obstructed and there are not hidden motorcycles, scooters, trolls, or UFOs.
    My, my. The old twisting of words to try to win an argument. I never said EVERY situation, now did I? Stop lying.

    You cannot get hit by a motorcycle, car, midget or elephant if none are approaching you. I GUARANTEE it.
    And I strongly suggest that you stop strongly suggesting to others what to do.
    Dude,

    You are the one who is guaranteeing that anyone who rides like you do doesn't have to worry about being hit by traffic.

    Just today while on my ride, I'm approaching an intersection that is controlled with a traffic light. As I'm approaching it I have the green light, to my left there are two cyclists who have the red. They do NOT slow down even though I'm in the intersection. If it hadn't been for me increasing my speed at the last second all three of us would have collided.

    But I guess given that according to you their judgement is "better" then the law I should take solace in that "fact, had we all collided?"

    Let me repeat, I had the green light, they had the red light. There is no way that they could not have seen me. So silly me I expected them to STOP at the red light. I guess that if I hadn't been able to speed up enough at the last second so that we did avoid hitting each other that it would have been my fault for going through a green light.

    That seems to be what you are saying.

    And again as I have seen before I have seen this pattern repeated all too often. Cyclists NOT breaking stride/pace and just blowing through red lights/stop signs as if they're the only ones on the road. But hey, it's all good because according to you their judgement is better then the law, right?
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  16. #141
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weshigh View Post
    Don't most laws actually require people to exercise their judgement? Speed limits give you the max speed you can go on a road. However, at all times you are required to drive within the limits of conditions. If it is snowing you have to use judgement and common sense. If you cause an accident because you were going to fast for conditions you can still get a ticket for that besides the fact that you hit something or someone, even if you were below the speed limit. Yield signs give the user a lot of judgement, how big of a gap do you need to pull out? Unsure, the law doesn't state how large that gap has to be, and if it does you still have to make judgments on if it is actually that size.

    Isn't part of the point of judges and juries, to determine if the judgement made was actually a crime, or not? Sure, in the cases we are discussing with running stop signs and stop lights, its pretty black and white and the law doesn't require real judgement. To make the claim that no law requires judgement or common sense is silly.
    I would have thought that in the context of this discussion that I was referring to the individual to use their judgement to override what the law says.

    And sadly around here I see way too many motorists who do not slow down when it is raining and the roads are starting to flood. They continue to drive down them at the posted speed limit. Which given that there are a number of streets that anyone who has lived where I live know that any time that it rains (even just a little bit) that they are prone to flooding and there are usually any number of cars, trucks, etc. that end up flooding and stalling because the driver(s) just plowed through the water at their usual speed as if the road was dry and it wasn't raining.

    I also sadly see a lot of motorists who do not turn on their headlights when they turn on their windshield wipers which is the law down here in Florida.
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  17. #142
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    All true, and it is a silly question. What he's really trying to ask is when is it legal to do something illegal, which is a nonsensical question because the only correct answer is never - technically, it's never legal to do something illegal.

    Even in an extreme emergency when someone is dying, you still have to break the law when speeding to a hospital and a policeman has the legal authority to ticket you for exceeding the speed limit. That's one reason, as you correctly point out, that the police and judges have some discretion. But, in the black and white world of Digital Cowboy where laws and semantics trump common sense and good judgment, the only acceptable answer is that it is never legal to do something illegal.

    I wonder if DC would even admit that the ethics of saving a life trumps his mandate of always following the law. My guess is that he would break the law, but I'm not sure he would admit it in this discussion, because then he will be forced to draw a line - an arbitrary line based on his personal judgment - when it's okay to break the law. As such, he could no longer hide behind the law for the moral authority of his position.
    In the case of having to rush someone to the hospital and it was impractical/unsafe to wait for either a LEO or an ambulance to arrive, yes I would of course advocate speeding as I think most LEO's would as well.

    However there is NO such "life or death" excuse to justify running a red light or stop sign. The ONLY reason(s) for running a red light or stop sign is because the person who is doing the running feels that they are too self-important and entitled to actually stop for the red light or stop sign. Or that their destination is more important then anyone else on the road.

    As see the close call I had with the two cyclists today who ran a red light when I had the green light.

    I guess I was being "silly" expecting them to stop for the red light, and that I should have stopped for the green light to allow them to pass? Is that what you're saying? I mean clearly in their judgement it was safe for them to do so, so who am I to second guess their actions, right? As you keep saying the person's judgement is clearly better then the written law.
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    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Dude,

    You are the one who is guaranteeing that anyone who rides like you do doesn't have to worry about being hit by traffic.

    Just today while on my ride, I'm approaching an intersection that is controlled with a traffic light. As I'm approaching it I have the green light, to my left there are two cyclists who have the red. They do NOT slow down even though I'm in the intersection. If it hadn't been for me increasing my speed at the last second all three of us would have collided.

    But I guess given that according to you their judgement is "better" then the law I should take solace in that "fact, had we all collided?"

    Let me repeat, I had the green light, they had the red light. There is no way that they could not have seen me. So silly me I expected them to STOP at the red light. I guess that if I hadn't been able to speed up enough at the last second so that we did avoid hitting each other that it would have been my fault for going through a green light.

    That seems to be what you are saying.

    And again as I have seen before I have seen this pattern repeated all too often. Cyclists NOT breaking stride/pace and just blowing through red lights/stop signs as if they're the only ones on the road. But hey, it's all good because according to you their judgement is better then the law, right?
    Stop pretending that I am suggesting that I blindly run through red lights or stop signs. I have stated repeatedly that the "way I ride" is to proceed through them when other vehicles are not approaching me, or are entirely absent. Stop changing the parameters, in effect, stop lying.
    Last edited by SBRDude; 09-09-11 at 05:22 AM. Reason: typo

  19. #144
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    In the case of having to rush someone to the hospital and it was impractical/unsafe to wait for either a LEO or an ambulance to arrive, yes I would of course advocate speeding as I think most LEO's would as well.

    However there is NO such "life or death" excuse to justify running a red light or stop sign. The ONLY reason(s) for running a red light or stop sign is because the person who is doing the running feels that they are too self-important and entitled to actually stop for the red light or stop sign. Or that their destination is more important then anyone else on the road.
    So, now you're agreeing that using one's judgment to break the law is permissible in certain situations. Since it's a judgment call, feel free to decide when you will break the law, and I'll use my best judgment to do the same, but please stop telling me that your judgment is the only correct choice. If that were the case, it would be a fact and not a judgment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    I would have thought that in the context of this discussion that I was referring to the individual to use their judgement to override what the law says.

    And sadly around here I see way too many motorists who do not slow down when it is raining and the roads are starting to flood. They continue to drive down them at the posted speed limit. Which given that there are a number of streets that anyone who has lived where I live know that any time that it rains (even just a little bit) that they are prone to flooding and there are usually any number of cars, trucks, etc. that end up flooding and stalling because the driver(s) just plowed through the water at their usual speed as if the road was dry and it wasn't raining.

    I also sadly see a lot of motorists who do not turn on their headlights when they turn on their windshield wipers which is the law down here in Florida.
    You should clarify what you mean when you make statements like "Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one." With all the crazy laws, I am sure if I looked hard enough I could find one that satisfied your comment and stayed within your narrow definition, which was not defined until after the statement was made.

    I think what it comes down to, is multiple system for dealing with a problem. It seems to me that you view the solution to be follow the rules that are stated, even if you find them be bad laws and then if you don't like them, work via the legislative means to change them.

    Others might see these rules/laws and reject them and decide not to follow them. Some might call it civil disobedience, some might call it being a scofflaw. Depends on motive and lot of other factors.

    There will always be people on either side.

  21. #146
    Senior Member Speedo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    How do you know for sure that they are not causing a problem?
    Because no one in your story made any representation that they, stop sign runners in that situation, have caused a problem. The security guards gave you an atta-boy, but no where in the variations of the anecdote that you've posted have you said that there was an actual problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Yes, I do. As I have said in other threads. If there is no cross traffic I'll do a trackstand at a stop sign and then continue, if there is cross traffic I'll unclip and wait for the cross traffic to clear and then proceed. Why is it so hard to comprehend that there are those who do stop for every red light and stop sign?
    Not a question of "comprehend". It is simply outside my experience that somebody, anybody, comes to a complete and full stop in EVERY circumstance.

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  22. #147
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    Stop pretending that I am suggesting that I blindly run through red lights or stop signs. I have stated repeatedly that the "way I ride" is to proceed through them when other vehicles are not approaching me, or are entirely absent. Stop changing the parameters, in effect, stop lying.
    You're the one who keeps insisting that anyone who rides as you do is safe. You've gone as far as to "guarantee" it. Even when it's been pointed out to you that way too many cyclists who blow through red lights/stop sings do so without breaking stride.

    As I said yesterday I had two cyclists who I'm sure in their "judgement" it was "safe" for them to blow through said red light, and that it was only my ability to speed up at the last second that a collision was avoided.

    Why can't you just admit that too many cyclists do not ride as you do and that they do in fact just blindly blow through red lights/stop signs? I was talking with a friend last night at my favorite pizza joint, he'd picked up his girlfriend at the airport. And had also encountered a cyclist who had just blindly blowing through a red light or stop sign. Proving as I've said that people as a whole do NOT use good sense, hence the need for the laws that we have.

    IF cyclists did show judgement and followed the precepts of the Idaho Stop law that would be one thing, but they don't, they just blindly blow through the intersections expecting everyone else on the road to look out for them as evidenced by the two cyclists who almost collided with me.
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  23. #148
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRDude View Post
    So, now you're agreeing that using one's judgment to break the law is permissible in certain situations. Since it's a judgment call, feel free to decide when you will break the law, and I'll use my best judgment to do the same, but please stop telling me that your judgment is the only correct choice. If that were the case, it would be a fact and not a judgment.
    The only time that it is "appropriate" is in a life or death situation. When one is riding a bicycle and blows through a red light or a stop sign there is no life or death situation. They're being as rude, selfish, and inconsiderate as the motorists that likewise run red lights, stop signs, and speed. They're only thinking of themselves and their destination.

    When the person who decides to run a red light or stop sign effects my safety I'm entitled to have an opinion on it. As was the case yesterday (Thursday) when those two cyclists, whom I'm sure in their "opinion" it was "safe" for them to run the red light and it turns out that it wasn't. Given that there was someone else approaching and in the intersection when they ran it. They were clearly only thinking of themselves and getting wherever it was that they are going and be damned to anyone who gets in their way.

    Again proved by the way that they ran the red light knowing that there was someone not only approaching it but in it and making a left turn as they are entering it against the red light. Maybe next time I see cyclists on a cross street who have a red and I have the green I should just stop (even though the law is on my side) so that I don't interfere with their "judgement" to run the red light?
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  24. #149
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Because no one in your story made any representation that they, stop sign runners in that situation, have caused a problem. The security guards gave you an atta-boy, but no where in the variations of the anecdote that you've posted have you said that there was an actual problem.
    The problem arises from the fact that they get into the habit of running red lights or stop signs or yield signs, which as someone else pointed out is one of the reasons for the proliferation of stop signs when a yield sign would have been better. That they often don't stop for them when it is needed, reinforcing my statement that people as a whole do not use good judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Not a question of "comprehend". It is simply outside my experience that somebody, anybody, comes to a complete and full stop in EVERY circumstance.

    Speedo
    That is the sad thing. I'm not alone, as I do know others who also do as I do, i.e. stop at every light and/or stop sign in every circumstance. I find it more surprising that people are surprised by the safe and legal actions of others and are accepting of the unsafe and illegal actions of others.
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  25. #150
    Godfather of Soul SBRDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    You're the one who keeps insisting that anyone who rides as you do is safe. You've gone as far as to "guarantee" it. Even when it's been pointed out to you that way too many cyclists who blow through red lights/stop sings do so without breaking stride.

    As I said yesterday I had two cyclists who I'm sure in their "judgement" it was "safe" for them to blow through said red light, and that it was only my ability to speed up at the last second that a collision was avoided.
    Then, they are not riding like me. Duh.
    Why can't you just admit that too many cyclists do not ride as you do and that they do in fact just blindly blow through red lights/stop signs?
    I have never denied that at all. Why can't you just admit that that type of riding is NOT what I'm talking about. STOP conflating unsafe riding with minor rule breaking - it's not the same thing.

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