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Bicycle Advocates Practicing "Engineering?"

Old 09-05-11, 09:23 PM
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Bicycle Advocates Practicing "Engineering?"

Any bicycle advocates run into trouble with engineers claiming they are "practicing engineering" without a license by reviewing crash data, recommending facilities, etc? If so, send me a note with your details and what you did. I am looking at a situation here in Ohio and looking for examples of how other jurisdictions have handled this.

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Old 09-06-11, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeLawyer
Any bicycle advocates run into trouble with engineers claiming they are "practicing engineering" without a license by reviewing crash data, recommending facilities, etc? If so, send me a note with your details and what you did. I am looking at a situation here in Ohio and looking for examples of how other jurisdictions have handled this.

Thanks!

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www.OhioBikeLawyer.com
What sort of "license?"
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Old 09-06-11, 08:00 AM
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I haven't heard of such...but how does reviewing and offering your opinion on public information anything but...an interest, at its worst?
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Old 09-06-11, 08:06 AM
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Engineers have to be licensed by the State. The question is, "Is what is being done above 'practicing engineering', or not?" I would say not, but I'm neither a lawyer nor an engineer.
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Old 09-06-11, 08:50 AM
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I'm an engineer and this is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. It's like a doctor telling you that you're "practicing medicine" if you read medical journals or request that a hospital be built in your area. It's utterly absurd. The engineering you're not allowed to do is the actual design of roads and facilities that will be built, or to sign off on construction works as meeting spec. That's the bit we engineers do, just like you can't actually perform surgery in a hospital or prescribe medication if you're not a licensed practitioner.
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Old 09-06-11, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyclaholic
I'm an engineer and this is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. It's like a doctor telling you that you're "practicing medicine" if you read medical journals or request that a hospital be built in your area. It's utterly absurd. The engineering you're not allowed to do is the actual design of roads and facilities that will be built, or to sign off on construction works as meeting spec. That's the bit we engineers do, just like you can't actually perform surgery in a hospital or prescribe medication if you're not a licensed practitioner.

That makes sense in sane countries, but what about Canada where writing 'MCSE' on your resume gets you a huge fine?
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Old 09-06-11, 09:07 AM
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This story should be of interest to you:

RALEIGH -- David N. Cox says he was merely exercising his right to petition the government, but a state Department of Transportation official has raised allegations that Cox committed a misdemeanor: practicing engineering without a license.

Cox and his North Raleigh neighbors are lobbying city and state officials to add traffic signals at two intersections as part of a planned widening of Falls of Neuse Road.

After an engineering consultant hired by the city said that the signals were not needed, Cox and the North Raleigh Coalition of Homeowners' Associations responded with a sophisticated analysis of their own.
https://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/...-on-state.html

I have given many highly technical critiques of engineering projects in my area, for instance the door-zone bike lanes recently installed on Hillsborough Street in Raleigh. Oftentimes I include scale diagrams and make recommendations of alternative designs. I am an engineer myself, but not a PE, and I am careful to represent myself as a citizen advocate or bike club representative and not a PE. Since the above story came out, I have started putting explicit disclaimers on my communications where I make engineering critiques. But I have always found that being respectful toward the local engineers gets me a lot of access and opportunity to provide input and affect their decision making. They call or email me for advice, bribe me with drinks, etc.

There are many bikeway advocates, planners, and landscape architects who are not engineers but publish extensive documents advocating specific engineering treatments even though the authors don't have a PE, or in most cases, any engineering degree. Oftentimes, it shows in their work, for instance where they fudge vehicle widths to make it look like cyclists will have more room in the door zone bike lane than they actually will. But I think it's better to eviscerate their bad designs with better engineering arguments and quantitative evidence rather than to try to muzzle speech.

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Old 09-06-11, 09:23 AM
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Public officials should be responding to this kind of engaged citizen activism with enthusiasm, not by trying to shut it down. If they view it as such a threat, perhaps they should reevaluate whether public service is the right career for themselves. And perhaps they should learn to take some input.
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Old 09-06-11, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bluefoxicy
That makes sense in sane countries, but what about Canada where writing 'MCSE' on your resume gets you a huge fine?
While this is seemingly getting off-topic, by talking about qualifications, the above mention, is hilarious. It makes one wonder, what the acronym means in Canada, other than Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. I wonder what other acronyms from IT certs garner a fine in Canada.

Getting back to bikes', what if bike mechanics in Canada(or even the U.S.) actually started being allowed to use certification acronyms on their resumes' pertaining to biking, but then the government started fining people for using the acronyms, for a reason totally unrelated to biking.
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Old 09-06-11, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mnemia
Public officials should be responding to this kind of engaged citizen activism with enthusiasm, not by trying to shut it down. If they view it as such a threat, perhaps they should reevaluate whether public service is the right career for themselves. And perhaps they should learn to take some input.

This is how things played out here in NC; the public strongly sided in support of free speech. Here is an interesting follow-up column:
https://www.newsobserver.com/2011/05/...es-a-turn.html
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Old 09-06-11, 10:18 AM
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I considered getting my PE, but it's not needed in my line of work. I would consider making a complaint to the licensing board if someone tried to shut down my free speech rights with some kind of specious argument about licensing. You can't represent yourself as an engineer if you aren't licensed, but that doesn't mean you can't do a proper analysis. Plenty of unlicensed engineers are doing this kind of analysis and having their work signed off on by a licensed engineer.
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Old 09-06-11, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris516
While this is seemingly getting off-topic, by talking about qualifications, the above mention, is hilarious. It makes one wonder, what the acronym means in Canada, other than Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer.
A Windows fanboy with a fancy papercert is not an "engineer" and is not "engineering." To bill himself as some sort of "engineer" is illegal unless he has a license to practice engineering.
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Old 09-06-11, 10:46 AM
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If engineers did their jobs properly, there would be no need for bike advocates to weigh in. But it seems that the only goal of some traffic engineers is to cram as many cars as posible through intersections, with no regard for the right of cyclists and pedestrians to travel safely.

Designing a road that kills people traveling on it should be just as unethical as designing a bridge that crashes the first time the wind blows.
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Old 09-06-11, 11:01 AM
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Engineers will always need public input to make sure that their design requirements meet the public's goals. There are a variety of ways to collect that input; some are fairer than others, and some are more politicized than others. Bicyclist advocates need to participate if they want to see their interests represented as strongly as the local neighborhood intersts, the business interests, the highway department interests, etc.

Usually the engineers ignore cycling, or include a token mention of some standard treatment that they might implement without thinking about it. Speaking up gets the engineers to pay more attention. In some cases, however, the engineers just plain screw up, and it needs to be called out, in engineering terms if necessary to make the point. As long as the feedback is done respectfully, constructively and transparently, the engineers are unlikely to retalliate, and are much more likely to adjust their game appropriately to a raising of the bar.
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Old 09-06-11, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris516
While this is seemingly getting off-topic, by talking about qualifications, the above mention, is hilarious. It makes one wonder, what the acronym means in Canada, other than Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. I wonder what other acronyms from IT certs garner a fine in Canada.

Getting back to bikes', what if bike mechanics in Canada(or even the U.S.) actually started being allowed to use certification acronyms on their resumes' pertaining to biking, but then the government started fining people for using the acronyms, for a reason totally unrelated to biking.
In most of the US, Canada and most countries, you cannot legally call yourself an engineer or practice engineering without being licensed.

Holding an MCSE does not license a person to be an engineer. Most folks with an MCSE know nothing about actual engineering design, analysis and ethics.

In addition, true systems engineers are not in the field of IT. They focus on managing and designing large complex engineering projects.

Even though I hold an MCSE, I would never, on my resume, call myself a systems engineer. I would list with my certifications that I carry an MCSE, however. I don't think anyone in the US has ever been prosecuted for writing down that they carry an MCSE.

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Old 09-06-11, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeLawyer
Any bicycle advocates run into trouble with engineers claiming they are "practicing engineering" without a license by reviewing crash data, recommending facilities, etc?
I "practice" medicine when I review my child's symptoms and treat with OTC solutions, but am not, nor do I advocate being a doctor. I "practice" accounting when I do my taxes and balance my checkbook, but am not a CPA. I also am allowed to design an addition to my house even though I am not a licensed engineer (and I can build it as long as I can get it approved by the licensed engineers at the county). So, I should be able to review crash data and make recommendations as long as it is made clear that I am not a licensed engineer.

I think its a "buyer beware" situation for the user of the recommendation to decide if they value a concerned citizen vs. a licensed engineer. And, it behooves the engineer to explain why their recommendation is better.

PS - I also see a lot of legal advice given on internet forums from people that aren't lawyers. Ohio code defines "practicing engineering", which it looks like reviewing and recommending do not qualify.

Last edited by ArtM; 09-06-11 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 09-06-11, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeybikes
I don't think anyone in the US has ever been prosecuted for writing down that they carry an MCSE.
US != Canada. It has "Engineer" on it and has come up.

https://www.microsoft.com/canada/lear...e/default.mspx

Individuals in the Province of Quebec will still be able to take the MCSE examinations and become a full member of the current program, but Microsoft will no longer provide Quebec MCSEs with materials or certificates that contain the word "engineer".
Microsoft even RECOMMENDS you do not "Elaborate" on (i.e. expand) the acronym.

My point is there is a large amount of stupidity in the world. The engineer's guild, being a guild, is a rent-seeking organization and is prone to try to eliminate any economic activity that infringes on their control of the market and ability to create artificial scarcity. Any free advice is severe and must be squashed.
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Old 09-06-11, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bluefoxicy
Microsoft even RECOMMENDS you do not "Elaborate" on (i.e. expand) the acronym.

My point is there is a large amount of stupidity in the world. The engineer's guild, being a guild, is a rent-seeking organization and is prone to try to eliminate any economic activity that infringes on their control of the market and ability to create artificial scarcity. Any free advice is severe and must be squashed.
The degree of harm that an engineer can do through negligence or incompetence is so great, and can potentially affect so many people, that rigorous certification of competency was developed to protect the public. It is part of the engineering culture to self-police to promote high professional standards so bridges are less likely to collapse and people are less likely to be sickened by their water supplies.

Great economic harm can be caused through failures of IT systems, and certification of IT professionals is a public good. While there is much overlap between some engineering fields and IT fields, they are different disciplines, with different skill sets. Some engineers are undoubtedly elitist about some things, but I'd like to count myself among the more enlightened engineers who know that IT professionals are every bit as smart and important as engineers are, and I like to have IT people on my projects at the earliest design stages to compensate for my inability to keep up with the pace and scope of the IT field. It's unfortunate that there is so much contention about the term "engineer" in the IT field since the IT folks I work with do nearly as much real engineering as I do on a daily basis.

The traffic engineers I talk to on a frequent basis encourage my participation and feedback on planning/design projects and before/after comparisons. When I do express an opinion about a design, I try to use the correct engineering terminology as a courtesy to them and to better communicate with them, not to deceive others about my qualifications, and I think they understand and appreciate that. When I do seek to influence the opinions of others, I try to provide references to other PE's work if appropriate, with context, and I try to get the local PE's to make my arguments for me. For instance, at a planning and zoning meeting, instead of saying "that signal is non-compliant with MUTCD due to its split phase cycle that never provides a circular green for pedestrians" I will ask the engineer there "What does the MUTCD say about split phase signals and pedestrians?" I give the engineer the opportunity to correct any misunderstandings I may have. I have backed engineers into a corner this way before, forcing them to admit that a design was seriously flawed, but usually I try to lead them into making my argument for me, and that can be most satisfying for all of us.

( Edit: FYI here is a link to an article I wrote a long while back on pedestrian safety and MUTCD requirements at signals: https://www.humantransport.org/univer...cdsignals.html )

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Old 09-06-11, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bluefoxicy
US != Canada. It has "Engineer" on it and has come up.
Never said, nor alluded that they were the same.

Originally Posted by bluefoxicy
My point is there is a large amount of stupidity in the world. The engineer's guild, being a guild, is a rent-seeking organization and is prone to try to eliminate any economic activity that infringes on their control of the market and ability to create artificial scarcity. Any free advice is severe and must be squashed.
Engineers are expected to be held to a high standard. Often times, projects that an engineer oversees has the potential for significant impacts on society. It is important to not diminish the amount of skill and knowledge necessary to practice engineering in a safe and ethical manner.

Engineering societies are not looking for simply rent. They are looking to maintain the high image and standards expected of engineers.

Many disasters have been the cause of engineers who did not have complete knowledge of their practice.

---

The Challenger disaster was a case where engineers failed to uphold their high standards of ethics and allowed the launch of the shuttle outside of acceptable parameters. Millions of dollars were lost and, more importantly, seven lives were lost.

St. Francis Dam collapsed after the chief engineer of the project designed it well short of the standards practiced by other dam engineers of the era. Cracks developed after the dam was completed and the chief engineer again failed, stating the cracks were not a danger. The dam collapsed later that day, killing 450 people.

---

To state that engineering guilds and/or engineering societies exist collect rent and eliminate any competition shows a severe lack of understanding of what engineering actually constitutes.

For Microsoft to even consider calling their test an engineering certification and to call the certificate holders Certified Systems Engineers shows that the understanding of engineering standards and ethics by laymen is in a decline.

I applaud Quebec for not allowing MCSE holders to call themselves engineers.
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Old 09-06-11, 02:44 PM
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Don't forget about shovelling coal into the train engine. That's engineers' work.
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Old 09-06-11, 02:48 PM
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In the US, there are plenty of legitimate engineers without licenses. The PE is generally only a requirement in civil engineering, other industries have other safeguards. Unfortunately, there's a lot of abuse of the term too.
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Old 09-06-11, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
Great economic harm can be caused through failures of IT systems, and certification of IT professionals is a public good. While there is much overlap between some engineering fields and IT fields, they are different disciplines, with different skill sets. Some engineers are undoubtedly elitist about some things, but I'd like to count myself among the more enlightened engineers who know that IT professionals are every bit as smart and important as engineers are, and I like to have IT people on my projects at the earliest design stages to compensate for my inability to keep up with the pace and scope of the IT field. It's unfortunate that there is so much contention about the term "engineer" in the IT field since the IT folks I work with do nearly as much real engineering as I do on a daily basis.
I agree, IT professional do quite a bit of real engineering.

My problem is with the MCSE bearing the word 'Engineer' in its title. The exam does nothing for testing true engineering principles. It does a good job of testing for analysis and design, when related to Microsoft systems, but does nothing for testing a professional's knowledge of engineering ethics. Microsoft has no code of ethics for their systems engineers in their courses or examinations. This discounts probably the most important aspect of engineering.
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Old 09-06-11, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wlaxer
In the US, there are plenty of legitimate engineers without licenses. The PE is generally only a requirement in civil engineering, other industries have other safeguards. Unfortunately, there's a lot of abuse of the term too.
All legitimate engineers without a PE have to have a licensed PE sign off on their work when it has potential public impact.

A friend of mine works as a process engineer for a gold mine out in Nevada. He does not have a PE license. All of his design and analysis regarding the environmental impact of one their mines had to be signed off by a licensed PE before the EPA would accept it.
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Old 09-06-11, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wlaxer
In the US, there are plenty of legitimate engineers without licenses. The PE is generally only a requirement in civil engineering, other industries have other safeguards. Unfortunately, there's a lot of abuse of the term too.
I know of one aerospace engineer that was required to have a PE because his employer wanted a PE to sign off on their drawings. I'm not aware of any state that allows non-PE's to formally represent themselves using the word engineer. It is somewhat inconvenient for those of us non-licensed individuals that practice engineering, but in practice this is the first I've heard of anyone pressing the issue. Seems to me that the most a licensing board can do is ask, "are you representing yourself as an engineer?" and if the answer is no, their response should be, "ok, our bad."

When I was an undergrad, my department had EIT licensing prep classes. That was the only place I ever heard about the legal requirements for calling yourself an engineer. I'm guessing that there are a lot of unlicensed engineers out there that have no idea of this.

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Old 09-06-11, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
If engineers did their jobs properly, there would be no need for bike advocates to weigh in. But it seems that the only goal of some traffic engineers is to cram as many cars as posible through intersections, with no regard for the right of cyclists and pedestrians to travel safely.

Designing a road that kills people traveling on it should be just as unethical as designing a bridge that crashes the first time the wind blows.
The problem with this analogy is that engineers often have their hands tied by accountants (via program managers) that tell them to limit their design criteria. Otherwise roads would all have wide shoulders, bridges would never fail, and buildings would stand forever... but we wouldn't be able to afford any of it.
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