Originally Posted by UberGeek
(Post 13405549)
The same reason I'd still drive a car with an airbag system light on, until I had the chance to get it repaired.
Plus you can usually buy a new helmet for $25 |
Originally Posted by StanSeven
(Post 13405825)
There's a big difference between not wearing a helmet and an airbag light on - helmets are more like not wearing a seatbelt.
Plus you can usually buy a new helmet for $25 |
Originally Posted by StanSeven
(Post 13405825)
There's a big difference between not wearing a helmet and an airbag light on - helmets are more like not wearing a seatbelt.
Plus you can usually buy a new helmet for $25 |
Ahh, I see the mods are true to their word! Good show!
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13405784)
I wonder if, or just how long it will be before this thread is shut down.
The newest installment of the helmet thread started off with this moderator comment...
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13405784)
There's that too, and one of the big problems of focusing on helmet use. Prevention takes a back seat to mitigation. The cyclist would have been completely injury free had she not run over the pipe to begin with
Originally Posted by CaptCarrot
(Post 13405254)
...
Personally, having read the article below, if she had not tried to ride over the piece plastic, this would not of happened. ... |
Originally Posted by CaptCarrot
(Post 13405254)
*Puts on flame ******ent suit*
I know helmets are a ^hot^ topic, and I am neither Pro nor Anti the wearing of helmets. But I wonder if wearing a helmet would have significantly reduced her injuries? Personally, having read the article below, if she had not tried to ride over the piece plastic, this would not of happened. BTW, the section of the A338 that she was travelling on is a Dual Carriageway with a 50 MPH speed limit. http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/new...sex_Way_crash/ A spokesperson for Dorset Police said according to eyewitnesses the bike wobbled suddenly and the back wheel appeared to slide out causing Mrs Bluemel, who is chairwoman of the Southampton Cycling Campaign, to fall and hit her head. |
Originally Posted by StanSeven
(Post 13405825)
There's a big difference between not wearing a helmet and an airbag light on - helmets are more like not wearing a seatbelt.
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Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 13408558)
She probably would have made it over the PVC just fine if she had her wheel properly tightened in place. This isn't the worst example of misdirection I've seen. I think the worst one I've seen is the one you posted back in April, where the cyclist was at fault rather than 3 motorist I exchanged emails with the coroner and he said, I did not intend my comments to suggest that cycle helmets were the panacea for all potential head injuries suffered in road traffic crashes but rather to encourage the use of cycle helmets rather than not using them at all. |
Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 13408558)
Why all the focus on her helmet, when her rear wheel was not even properly attached and the apparent cause of the crash?
She probably would have made it over the PVC just fine if she had her wheel properly tightened in place. But you're right: Had her wheel been properly tightened, things might not have gone so amiss, perhaps. Maybe. Thing is, these discussions of anecdotes won't help us decide whether one ought to wear a helmet, whether it doesn't matter, or whether they're harmfull. Only research based on reliable statistics can tell us that. As far as I'm concerned, it seems to me that helmets aren't significantly relevant for general cyclist safety. |
Folks, I'm pretty sure that they mean "slide out" as in "lost traction", not that the wheel fell out of the bicycle.
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Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 13408725)
Folks, I'm pretty sure that they mean "slide out" as in "lost traction", not that the wheel fell out of the bicycle.
Like much of the thread, forest is entirely obscured by the trees. |
Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 13408725)
Folks, I'm pretty sure that they mean "slide out" as in "lost traction", not that the wheel fell out of the bicycle.
It's seemingly always about the lack of helmet, almost never about some very preventable circumstances and never about the reasonable limitations helmets naturally have |
Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 13408725)
Folks, I'm pretty sure that they mean "slide out" as in "lost traction", not that the wheel fell out of the bicycle.
As far as whether the helmet would have helped, those are some pretty sparse details. We don't know how she fell, if she hit a curb, etc. Who knows? Silly to speculate or imply that we should speculate that a helmet may have helped. |
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13408771)
It's seemingly always about the lack of helmet, almost never about some very preventable circumstances and never about the reasonable limitations helmets naturally have
|
Anyone watch Spaceballs? Now there is the reason to wear a helmet!
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Prevention v mitigation. I believe that becomes a smoke screen - any safety program involves both. Drive your care safely, obey the traffic laws, but wear a seatbelt and have airbags. Handle tools carefully, restrict access, but still have workers below you wear hard hats. On and on and on. We use the safety device just for the instance where we make a screwup. The lady certainly made an error by running over the pipe, but that isn't the issue! The issue is helmets. Would the helmet have helped? Might my helmet help me in a mishap?
Here is a clear instance where no X-thousand pound vehicle was involved. Speed didn't seem to be (yes, I said seem) the culprit. She possibly made an error in riding over the pipe. Might the helmet have helped? That is the question, NOT her riding skills. Prevention is a different discussion - parallel, but different. By deflecting the discussion from the potential safety benefit (mitigation) of a helmet to focusing on riding skills, you defeat your own argument!! Because who else would better need a helmet than someone that might make a riding skills mistake? I certainly fit in that group, and I suspect most of us might... |
The problem is that it's an impossible question to discuss intelligently. We know very few details. She could have hit a curb, or a rock, or a completely flat road.
That said, I'm absolutely willing to say, tentatively, that it's absolutely possible. Helmets do have uses, and can mitigate injury; nobody here is contesting that. All that is being contested is that a) they are life-savers (by design, not by fluke) and b) that they are necessary, or practically necessary, for safe cycling. Again, nobody is contesting that they mitigate injuries, only the degree to which they do so. |
Thread link summary:
Originally Posted by chasm54
(Post 13335409)
Have you tried this? I know many will not regard it as neutral because it is very clear about the flaws in the pro-helmet position, but it does offer a fairly dispassionate analysis of the available evidence.
Originally Posted by sudo bike
(Post 13335471)
If you insist...
Head injuries and bicycle helmet laws D. L. Robinson AGBU, University of New England, Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia Accepted 6 February 1996. ; Available online 26 February 1999. Abstract The first year of the mandatory bicycle helmet laws in Australia saw increased helmet wearing from 31% to 75% of cyclists in Victoria and from 31% of children and 26% of adults in New South Wales (NSW) to 76% and 85%. However, the two major surveys using matched before and after samples in Melbourne (Finch et al. 1993; Report No. 45, Monash Univ. Accident Research Centre) and throughout NSW (Smith and Milthorpe 1993; Roads and Traffic Authority) observed reductions in numbers of child cyclists 15 and 2.2 times greater than the increase in numbers of children wearing helmets. This suggests the greatest effect of the helmet law was not to encourage cyclists to wear helmets, but to discourage cycling. Author Keywords: Bicycle; Head injury; Helmet; Legislation
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13336380)
A far more realistic site that addresses the helmet issue is the first one I provided on this new version of the thread, http://bicyclesafe.com If one is interested in studies and analysis, far more qualified anaylsis and opinions can be found at http://cyclehelmets.org/ ------------------------------ a worthwhile read is the wiki entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet <-- Grand-daddy/mommy mother/fatherlode of helmet study linkage in the text and references at the bottom
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13306081)
Originally Posted by buzzman
(Post 13336169)
...I would suggest going to this site, which provides objectively collected data, some pro-helmet interpretations and links to sites which counter their views:
http://www.bhsi.org For researched rational responses to many of the negatives about helmets I would suggest this site: http://www.bhsi.org/negativs.htm
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13365621)
have you considered, when helmet use skyrocketed... head injuries went up... Helmet-wearing may actually promote injury.
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13366843)
It's not common to receive head injuries on bikes any more than it is to receive them off a bike, which is, not not common.
Here's another link....
Originally Posted by sudo bike
(Post 13370863)
If the scalp helps reduce rotational injury to the brain by helping the head slide along pavement rather than catch, and a helmet reduced this effect, doesn't it stand to reason that at least in these sorts of accidents a helmet mitigates the effect of the scalp?
Again, why do you think they are now trying to replicate this "scalp effect" in new helmets? What would be the purpose if it were not effective? "It has been suggested that the major causes of permanent intellectual disablement and death after head injury may be torsional forces leading to diffuse axonal injury (DAI), a form of injury which usual helmets cannot mitigate and may make worse.[68]" "A bicycle helmet with its own synthetic "scalp" has been designed with the aim of mitigating rotational injury.[71]"
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13371384)
...read the links I provided: Focusing on helmets distracts people from what's more likely to actually save their lives: Learning how to ride safely. It's not that I'm against helmets, I'm against all the attention placed on helmets at the expense of safe riding skills.
Here's another link for you to read and consider... one of the most powerful laws in the universe is the law of unintended consequences
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13371397)
...an Australian judge sided against a helmet law and with a cyclist who argued wearing a helmet caused more harm than it prevented
''Having read all the material, I think I would fall down on your side of the ledger,'' the judge told Ms Abbott after she had spelt out her case against the laws that exist in few countries other than Australia and New Zealand. ''I frankly don't think there is anything advantageous and there may well be a disadvantage in situations to have a helmet - and it seems to me that it's one of those areas where it ought to be a matter of choice.'' He found Ms Abbott had ''an honestly held and not unreasonable belief as to the danger associated with the use of a helmet by cyclists'', and quashed her conviction...
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13371730)
don't forget the paper the Australian judge read prior to rendering a decision:
The testing and design of standard helmets continue to reflect the discredited theory that linear acceleration is the dominant cause of brain injury and to neglect rotation. and another study examining a vital lack of coverage by the bicycle helmet The common designs of commercially available bicycle helmets do not prevent direct contact loading on the temporal and zygomatic arch region and this contact loading is potentially harmful. has been shown in court to be common knowledge in the helmet industry It has been known for years by the helmet industry that the majority of head impacts occur below the "test line," and that the majority of injurious impacts are concentrated in the front or temporal region. but this issue of protection (or lack thereof) may be completely moot because 1) On a per-mile basis, the odds of being killed or sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about the same as the odds of being killed or injured while out for a walk. 2) On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning (this author has, in fact, been struck by lightning -- albeit indirectly -- so he is well aware that "extremely improbable" is not quite the same as "impossible"); the odds of sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about half the odds of sustaining a serious injury while out for a walk.
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13371730)
if you continue to be worried about hurting your head from falling over, you may want to wear your helmet while walking as well because,
The tests that cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground.
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13375196)
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13399300)
If protection from being hit by a car is your concern, a helmet might be a good choice if it was designed to provide such protection, but it is not.
"bicycle helmets are not designed to withstand the impact of collisions with motor vehicles" "The tests cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground... helmets protect in falls without any involvement with motor vehicles...in todays road traffic accidents, it's not unlikely for a cycle helmet to be subjected to severity loads far greater than it was designed to cope with"
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13399400)
not rational at all.
... an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's better to not get hit. That's what real bicycle safety is about.
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13402721)
[regarding motor-vehicle/bicycle collisions as it pertains to the utility of helmets in such]
"The tests cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground... helmets protect in falls without any involvement with motor vehicles...in todays road traffic accidents, it's not unlikely for a cycle helmet to be subjected to severity loads far greater than it was designed to cope with"
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13410891)
a bicycle helmet is not designed for impacts with other vehicles.
Impacts with other vehicles introduces additional forces that were not designed for... here's a third source that explains a bit more "when a cyclist is knocked off by another vehicle, this frequently results in the head being spun and subjected to torsional effects. One consequence of this is that they tend not to hit the ground as cleanly as children who are typically involved in low-impact, non-twisting injuries,"
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13414809)
according to the Canada Safety Council, it is more important to wear a helmet than text while cycling
Paying attention to riding and avoiding distractions from cellphones and music players ranks second on the Canada Safety Council's top tips for improving cycling safety — behind wearing a helmet And people question helmet skeptics when they say helmet promotion reduces cycling safety?
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13428357)
[examples of pro-helmet groups citing discredited studies, which groups also push for MHL legislation, and which are supported by helmet manufacturers]
http://www.helmetssavelives.org/imag...LogoHeader.png http://www.helmetssavelives.org/ The single most effective safety device available to reduce head injury and death from bicycle crashes is a helmet. Bike Helmet: Difference of Life or Death Paying attention to riding and avoiding distractions from cellphones and music players ranks second on the Canada Safety Council's top tips for improving cycling safety — behind wearing a helmet. |
Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13404110)
Yes it does. The experts specifically exclude the involvement of motor vehicles while you include them.
Heck, even the bhsi says the most important thing is to avoid collisions with motor vehicles because collisions with them exceed the limits of a helmet You seem to be claiming, with cited articles, that in an accident involving a motor vehicle and a bicycle, where the cyclist is wearing a helmet, and some impact is sustained by the helmeted head within those parameters for which the helmet is specifically designed to provide protection and injury mitigation, the helmet will not work as designed. I still contend that it quite possibly might provide the protection for which it as designed. I couldn't find any indication otherwise in the articles you cited; one mentioned forces in excess of those sustained in grand prix racing, the other, acceleration of the rider due to motor vehicle contact. |
Originally Posted by mconlonx
(Post 13410194)
.... I still contend that it quite possibly might provide the protection for which it as designed...
Impacts with other vehicles introduces additional forces that were not designed for. The first source gave you this basic information, the second source expanded this a bit by saying impacts with motor vehicles introduce an acceleration to the impact, and here's a third source that explains a bit more "when a cyclist is knocked off by another vehicle, this frequently results in the head being spun and subjected to torsional effects. One consequence of this is that they tend not to hit the ground as cleanly as children who are typically involved in low-impact, non-twisting injuries," I exchanged emails with Dr. Sheikh about his study and the injuries treated involved simple falls (what helmets are designed for) and not impacts with motor vehicles (which they are not). |
Originally Posted by david58
(Post 13410072)
Prevention v mitigation. I believe that becomes a smoke screen - any safety program involves both.....
It's about misplaced priorities and attitudes, the attitude that the most important factor in bicycle safety is helmet use, when it's not. |
Originally Posted by sudo bike
(Post 13410103)
The problem is that it's an impossible question to discuss intelligently. We know very few details....
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
(Post 13410932)
true. We know little, but we do know that serious injury from simple falls is a rarity. It may be that this poor woman is seriously injured, but if she is, it is not the norm by any stretch.
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Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
(Post 13410980)
I just talked to someone the other day that had suffered a concussion when he tripped on a child's toy on their stairs. Please, please, everyone, wear a helmet on the stairs. The doctors say that he would have DIED if he hadn't been wearing a helmet.
It's about perspective and unless there's a push to wear helmets 24/7 for everyone, pushing them for cyclists just places the whole issue out of perspective |
My view exactly. Cycling just isn't that dangerous when done properly, certainly a lot less risky that walking down stairs or stumbling home drunk. Nobody suggests stair helmets or drinking helmets, so why are they apparently required for cycling?
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