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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet 178 10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped 94 5.63%
I've always worn a helmet 648 38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do 408 24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions 342 20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-07-12, 02:29 PM   #3626
atbman
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It would seem a case of overkill to me. The only piece of research I've come across which looked at the autopsy reports of cyclists who'd died from head injuries was by Dr. Mayer Hilman (UK) in the CTC's Cycle magazine, a good many years ago.

His analysis showed that about 92% of all riders with fatal head inuries would have died anyway, because of other, but slower acting injuries. So the full face helmet would only be of use in those cases where a normal cycle helmet would not have protected the rider. I speculate (admittedly), but it seems possible that any impact requiring such a helmet would be likely to cause other and possibly fatal damage. I would also be slightly wary of the possiblity of the greater size and weight of the helmet increasing the risk of greater rotational forces on the head in the case of a collision.
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Old 10-07-12, 03:20 PM   #3627
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Helmet = overkill (given the miniscule risk), but little or no downside

Full face helmet = ridiculous, irrational overkill, with a lot of downside.

I'm going to find one I can wear into the tub or whenever walking in the winter, because in my personal experience, both are extremely more dangerous than riding a bicycle.
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Old 10-07-12, 05:00 PM   #3628
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His analysis showed that about 92% of all riders with fatal head inuries would have died anyway, because of other, but slower acting injuries.
This finding, while interesting, says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of a helmet. It basically says that even if the head injury could have been reduced or prevented, the patient would have died from other injuries unrelated to the protection or lack thereof offered by a helmet. Indeed if the patient had no head injury at all, he/she still would have died. Other questions that would have to be asked include:

- what percentage of the victims were properly wearing bicycle helmets at the time of the accident?
- if there had been no other potentially fatal injuries to consider, what percentage of those who were not wearing a helmet could reasonably have been expected to survive if they had been?
- of the 8% that died of head injury alone, what percentage of them might have survived if they were wearing a helmet?

A problem I see in many helmet debates is that arguments seem to lump all head injuries into two categories, fatal and non-fatal. There are a wide range of head injuries ranging from a painful bump or getting your bell rung, a whole range of concussion injuries, skull fractures and intracranial bleeds. The purpose of a helmet is to prevent or lessen the severity of injuries from impacts to the head. If a rider sustains a concussion while wearing a helmet, one should not assume that the helmet did not work, but rather ask how severe the concussion might have been without it. You can also ask just so much from a helmet. If you lose control at 40+ mph on a steep mountain downgrade and clip an oncoming truck before smashing headfirst into the guardrail, you are probably going to die with or without a helmet.

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I would also be slightly wary of the possiblity of the greater size and weight of the helmet increasing the risk of greater rotational forces on the head in the case of a collision.
This I would like to see a properly conducted study on as the potential to increase neck injuries is sometimes overlooked when designing head protection.

Last edited by Myosmith; 10-07-12 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 10-07-12, 07:10 PM   #3629
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I'm going to find one I can wear into the tub or whenever walking in the winter, because in my personal experience, both are extremely more dangerous than riding a bicycle.
I very much like this message, not literal meaning but with an appropriate amount of sarcasm I think this makes an excellent point.

For me though, descending several hills on every ride is enough to make me appreciate even a little peace of mind offered by my conventional helmet.
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Old 10-07-12, 07:16 PM   #3630
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I was watching NBC and some guy on the bike race took a fall. He had a partial full face helmet (aero) which was pretty cool. I briefly remembered it covered his cheek. It was a good thing he had the helmet as he took a slider on his shoulder, head and cheek. I'd wear one of those because they looked cool.
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Old 10-07-12, 08:34 PM   #3631
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Originally Posted by Myosmith View Post
- of the 8% that died of head injury alone, what percentage of them might have survived if they were wearing a helmet?
Why did you assume that NONE of this 8% had helmets on?

Implies you have a bias. Do you assume only the helmetless die from head injuries?
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Old 10-07-12, 08:51 PM   #3632
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Don't ride motorcycles anymore, but when I did I never rode without a full face helmet (after once sliding down the road on my face). But I can't imagine it on a bicycle and I'm not at all convinced it would be effective in any case.
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Old 10-07-12, 10:05 PM   #3633
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This is a very interesting discussion for me since I just purchased a 3/4 style minimum DOT protection standards lightweight motorcycle helmet (looks like a jet fighter pilot helmet complete with same style visor just without the oxygen mask underneath) specifically to use this winter for bicycling mainly to keep my head warm compared to a bike helmet (no vents).

I specifically was looking for a motorcycle helmet with a visor and full head wrap around with no vents for warmth. But I though a full face with a chin bar across the bottom would be more likely to fog up in the cold especially the ones with pads in the front chin bar so the bottom of the helmet was nearly sealed up. On a bike you sweat when pumping unlike a motorcycle and I was and to a certain extent even with an open chin 3/4 helmet concerned about fog up on the visor but we shall see.

Considering the physical activity and the resulting body heat and moisture produced on a pedal powered cycle that isn't there with a motorcycle I'm wondering how much of a fog up problem those of you using a full face helmet are having. Yes, I know most if not all of the good helmets are supposed to be non-fogging but experience has taught me that only means fog-resistant at least with my experience with other stuff that is supposedly non-fogging besides helmet visors (ski goggles, sunglasses, etc . . . )
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Old 10-08-12, 03:33 AM   #3634
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Why did you assume that NONE of this 8% had helmets on?

Implies you have a bias. Do you assume only the helmetless die from head injuries?
Relax a notch. The question was
Quote:
- of the 8% that died of head injury alone, what percentage of them might have survived if they were wearing a helmet?
If you would read what I actually posted you would see that the question in no way states that all of the 8% who died were helmetless. It merely asks that if all of them had been wearing a helmet, would it have made a difference for any of them? For those who were wearing helmets it is obvious that the helmet was insufficent to prevent their deaths. If all of them actually were wearing helmets it renders the question moot. The question itself was only an example of the types of questions that would have to be answered in order to make the quote cited by atbman relevant in a discussion of the effectiveness of helmets rather than an examination of comorbidities in cycling deaths.

Further down I state
Quote:
You can also ask just so much from a helmet. If you lose control at 40+ mph on a steep mountain downgrade and clip an oncoming truck before smashing headfirst into the guardrail, you are probably going to die with or without a helmet.
I'm a paramedic and I have seen first hand what you can and can't expect from a chunk of styrofoam and plastic protecting your head. I'm well aware that even the best helmets can't prevent all deaths from head injury.

You are correct that I have a bias in favor of helmet use, but I'm not jumping on any stump to proclaim that those who chose not to will be struck down by the god of concussions for their blasphemy. I chose to wear one because I believe they can prevent a significant percentage of minor injuries and reduce the severity of injury from more major blows to the head. Helmets, like any other safety device have their limitations. They by no means make you invincible. If you hit your head hard enough even the best helmet can't prevent all injury or even death. I also believe that a helmet is no substitue for well developed riding skills, situational awareness, and good judgement.

May I ask if you have a bias against helmet use?

Last edited by Myosmith; 10-08-12 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 10-08-12, 07:10 AM   #3635
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I always wear a full face helmet on a motorcycle, but I seldom wear any kind of helmet on a bicycle much less a full face one. Why? Speed on a motorcycle I going around town at 40-50-60mph. On a bicycle, I'm riding around at about 10mph. Unless you're racing or doing something really stupid there's no need for a big, heavy, full face helmet on a bicycle.
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Old 10-08-12, 08:33 AM   #3636
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Very few motorcyclists who ride big highway cruisers wear full face helmets, because most of their bikes have fairings with a full windshield in front of them. My purpose for riding with a full face helmet on my old Yamaha sport bike was, at 70 mph, there isn't much difference between taking the impact of a fat June bug on the cheek or jaw, than taking a small pebble kicked up by a tire. You wouldn't believe how dirty my face shield was with bug juice and guts after a ride in a typical rural area. The face shield is more useful for protecting a rider from road debris and bug impacts, than in a crash.
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Old 10-08-12, 08:53 AM   #3637
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Of all the silly and contrived reason to not wear a helmet, what you look like is the most lame. Just how vain can some people be? It must be a fully kitted roadie thing.

Missing hair and a huge scab from road rash on the side of your head would seem to be more embarrassing to me!!!
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Old 10-08-12, 09:10 AM   #3638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
This is a very interesting discussion for me since I just purchased a 3/4 style minimum DOT protection standards lightweight motorcycle helmet (looks like a jet fighter pilot helmet complete with same style visor just without the oxygen mask underneath) specifically to use this winter for bicycling mainly to keep my head warm compared to a bike helmet (no vents).

I specifically was looking for a motorcycle helmet with a visor and full head wrap around with no vents for warmth. But I though a full face with a chin bar across the bottom would be more likely to fog up in the cold especially the ones with pads in the front chin bar so the bottom of the helmet was nearly sealed up. On a bike you sweat when pumping unlike a motorcycle and I was and to a certain extent even with an open chin 3/4 helmet concerned about fog up on the visor but we shall see.

Considering the physical activity and the resulting body heat and moisture produced on a pedal powered cycle that isn't there with a motorcycle I'm wondering how much of a fog up problem those of you using a full face helmet are having. Yes, I know most if not all of the good helmets are supposed to be non-fogging but experience has taught me that only means fog-resistant at least with my experience with other stuff that is supposedly non-fogging besides helmet visors (ski goggles, sunglasses, etc . . . )
Hate to tell you, but that 3/4 helmet will be c-c-c-cold as the temps drop...

Google Fog City face shield. I hereby offer up positive testimonial that Fog City products to a great job keeping full face helmets from fogging. Only downside is that they don't play nice with polarized face-shields or glasses.
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Old 10-08-12, 11:26 AM   #3639
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Riding up those hills on a bicycle is NOT a lot like a motorcycle, especially on a summer day.
There is a hill near me that was very common for the return leg of local club rides. About half way up there is a split in the raod and a nice island, a spot where in the summer it was very common for cyclists to stop and change sweat bands of otherwise take care of excess sweat. I don't even what to think of trying that hill in the summer with a full face helmet.
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Old 10-08-12, 12:17 PM   #3640
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Originally Posted by Myosmith View Post
May I ask if you have a bias against helmet use?
Depends on the helmet. I did and still do have a strong bias against wearing the old style styrofoam without the plastic shell type helmets. The helmet manufacturers realized just how dangerous those were for rotational injuries, but never issued a recall, they simply got rid of the evidence with their free helmet exchange for crashed helmets.

Helmets are great for mountain biking, but for road riding, they are mostly a place to mount a visor or helmet light.

The biggest problems with helmets is they encourage mandatory helmet laws that reduce cycling.
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Old 10-08-12, 03:29 PM   #3641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
This is a very interesting discussion for me since I just purchased a 3/4 style minimum DOT protection standards lightweight motorcycle helmet (looks like a jet fighter pilot helmet complete with same style visor just without the oxygen mask underneath) specifically to use this winter for bicycling mainly to keep my head warm compared to a bike helmet (no vents).

I specifically was looking for a motorcycle helmet with a visor and full head wrap around with no vents for warmth. But I though a full face with a chin bar across the bottom would be more likely to fog up in the cold especially the ones with pads in the front chin bar so the bottom of the helmet was nearly sealed up. On a bike you sweat when pumping unlike a motorcycle and I was and to a certain extent even with an open chin 3/4 helmet concerned about fog up on the visor but we shall see.

Considering the physical activity and the resulting body heat and moisture produced on a pedal powered cycle that isn't there with a motorcycle I'm wondering how much of a fog up problem those of you using a full face helmet are having. Yes, I know most if not all of the good helmets are supposed to be non-fogging but experience has taught me that only means fog-resistant at least with my experience with other stuff that is supposedly non-fogging besides helmet visors (ski goggles, sunglasses, etc . . . )
Hate to tell you, but that 3/4 helmet will be c-c-c-cold as the temps drop...

Google Fog City face shield. I hereby offer up positive testimonial that Fog City products to a great job keeping full face helmets from fogging. Only downside is that they don't play nice with polarized face-shields or glasses.
Colder then a conventional top cap only style bicycle helmet with vents? Surely it will be warmer then a top cap helmet especially one with big honking vent slits like a regular bicycle helmet? I'm still waiting for it to show up in the mail so I can try it out so you may know more then I but the visor-ed 3/4 helmets I tried on at the local harley dealer to figure out what I wanted before I ordered the same exact thing online for half the price sure felt like they would be warmer on my head especially to keep my ears warm. Stocking ski mask can only do so much and makes a regular bike helmet on top not fit exactly right.
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Old 10-08-12, 04:46 PM   #3642
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Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
Colder then a conventional top cap only style bicycle helmet with vents? Surely it will be warmer then a top cap helmet especially one with big honking vent slits like a regular bicycle helmet? I'm still waiting for it to show up in the mail so I can try it out so you may know more then I but the visor-ed 3/4 helmets I tried on at the local harley dealer to figure out what I wanted before I ordered the same exact thing online for half the price sure felt like they would be warmer on my head especially to keep my ears warm. Stocking ski mask can only do so much and makes a regular bike helmet on top not fit exactly right.
Wait, 3/4 motorcycle helmet for use on a motorcycle or bicycle? Will still be cold on a motorcycle, suggest a full-face helmet in that case; will definitely be warmer on a bicycle, but heavy.

Sizing at brick and mortar store to buy cheap online:
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Old 10-08-12, 04:56 PM   #3643
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For use on a bicycle not a motorcycle.

I did buy some leather riding gloves from the brick and mortar but yes I did fit and size then buy online for the helmet because of the huge difference in price. Mainly went there to "get my bearings" since I'm only familiar with bike helmets and motorcycle helmets are new to me and tried a bunch of different styles and sizes and brands to figure out what would work for what I was trying to do. Namely a light weight motorcycle helmet that would cover more of my head and keep me warmer but not weigh a ton, was already looking online before I ever went to the brick and mortar and I was also hoping to get lucky in their used selection but that didn't work out. They had one I like in the used that was only $35 but it was one size too small and was too tight on my head otherwise I would have gotten it.

Last edited by turbo1889; 10-08-12 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 10-08-12, 05:05 PM   #3644
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Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
For use on a bicycle not a motorcycle.

I did buy some leather riding gloves from the brick and mortar but yes I did fit and size then buy online for the helmet because of the huge difference in price. Mainly went there to "get my bearings" since I'm only familiar with bike helmets and motorcycle helmets are new to me and tried a bunch of different styles and sizes and brands to figure out what would work for what I was trying to do. Namely a light weight motorcycle helmet that would cover more of my head and keep me warmer but not weigh a ton, was already looking online before I ever went to the brick and mortar and I was also hoping to get lucky in their used selection but that didn't work out. They had one I like in the used that was only $35 but it was one size too small and was too tight on my head otherwise I would have gotten it.
My prediction: helmet will be too hot, even in all but the coldest weather; too heavy in general.
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Old 10-08-12, 05:45 PM   #3645
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The biggest problems with helmets is they encourage mandatory helmet laws that reduce cycling.
I too have a problem with government mandating helmet use, I think it should be a choice. I don't think, however, that my choice to wear a helmet while road cycling will influence bureaucrats one way or the other. I also agree that helmets have come a long way from the plastic shell held to a foam insert with double sided tape. Polycarbonate or even kevlar shells with molded in the shell liners are my choice.

Quote:
but for road riding, they are mostly a place to mount a visor or helmet light.
I respectfully disagree as my daughter at about 13 years old somehow endoed (never did get the straight story) doing substantial damage to her bike and to her Bontrager helmet. She ended up with a mild concussion and spent a few hours of observation in the ER. Looking at the bike and helmet I think things could have been a lot worse. Maybe not fatal (God forbid) but probably a worse concussion with a lot of soft tissue damage (bruises and/or deep abrasions) or maybe even a skull fracture. She ground up the front of the helmet pretty bad and you could see the deformation in the foam liner. She's now a young adult and I wish I could get her to wear her helmet.

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Old 10-08-12, 06:32 PM   #3646
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http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/a...mets-cu29r.jpg

Does that look like it would be much hotter to wear?

It does not to me.


Users are thinking full face helmets could lead to helmet laws?

I have a hard time seeing that, but you know what they say about opinions.
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Old 10-09-12, 11:25 PM   #3647
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Christ on a pogo stick. Is English your second language or something?
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Old 10-10-12, 07:37 AM   #3648
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Hmmmmm--------I must have hit a nerve!!!
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Old 10-10-12, 07:39 AM   #3649
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Christ on a pogo stick. Is English your second language or something?
Reread what he wrote, his English is fine, he was attempting to be creative with a bit of poetry done to it.
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Old 10-10-12, 09:51 AM   #3650
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Just got back from a liesure ride. I was following a couple of ladies on hybrids while coming to a split on the path. I guess one of them decided at the last second to take the side trail and she made a quick turn to it. She high sided on to the ground and slammed the side of her head into a post. Helped her up, roadrash on her knee and elbow and some torn clothes. No complaint about her helmeted head but I'm sure that neck will be sore tonight.
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